Diablo® III

Could Tyrael be the "hidden final BOSS"

In the trailer, he has a sooooo weird smile when he settled the Back Soul Stone. And He said "you shall all...” Could it be "die" ,which was interrupted by Malthael and changed to "run"?

I always believe Tyrael is the backstage manipulator since Diablo II. XD
Edited by myw#1183 on 8/24/2013 12:15 PM PDT
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Yeah i noticed that too.He definitely wanted to say something else than "run" i'm sure of that.
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90 Human Death Knight
8950
It wasn't "you shall all..." it was "You should all...".
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I beleive he was just releived that nothing happened. Genuinely happen.

08/24/2013 02:41 PMPosted by Warcrimes
It wasn't "you shall all..." it was "You should all...".


I beleive he was going with something like, You should all take a break, or congratulate yourselves on a job well done.
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90 Troll Mage
10525
In the trailer, he has a sooooo weird smile when he settled the Back Soul Stone. And He said "you shall all...” Could it be "die" ,which was interrupted by Malthael and changed to "run"?

I always believe Tyrael is the backstage manipulator since Diablo II. XD


This is dumb, he said "You SHOULD all, run" not "you shall"

However, as the aspect of wisdom, he can see all things. Perhaps this was the reason he saw Mal'thael coming, he THREATENED Mal'thael that the Nephalem will stop him. And send a Horadrim to message him about this.

Tyrael is definitely not the bad guy
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In the trailer, he has a sooooo weird smile when he settled the Back Soul Stone. And He said "you shall all...” Could it be "die" ,which was interrupted by Malthael and changed to "run"?

I always believe Tyrael is the backstage manipulator since Diablo II. XD


This is dumb, he said "You SHOULD all, run" not "you shall"

However, as the aspect of wisdom, he can see all things. Perhaps this was the reason he saw Mal'thael coming, he THREATENED Mal'thael that the Nephalem will stop him. And send a Horadrim to message him about this.

Tyrael is definitely not the bad guy
One quote can perhaps shed some light on this situation...

"You and I are the same. But those others... The fallen angel... The witch... They're using you for their own ends. You choose to be their puppet, yet the power of your birthright could make you a God." - Zoltun Kulle

Kulle was right about everything from the beginning. Tyrael's fall gave him mortal ambitions. He wanted to control the high heavens and quickly took the role of Malthael, the leader of the Angirus council, in his absense. He usurped control of the high heavens using the power of both the Prime Evil to lay waste to the heavens and the Nephalem to restore the heavens in his control. Giving the authors of D3 way too much credit though.
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90 Troll Mage
10525
One quote can perhaps shed some light on this situation...

"You and I are the same. But those others... The fallen angel... The witch... They're using you for their own ends. You choose to be their puppet, yet the power of your birthright could make you a God." - Zoltun Kulle

Kulle was right about everything from the beginning. Tyrael's fall gave him mortal ambitions. He wanted to control the high heavens and quickly took the role of Malthael, the leader of the Angirus council, in his absense. He usurped control of the high heavens using the power of both the Prime Evil to lay waste to the heavens and the Nephalem to restore the heavens in his control. Giving the authors of D3 way too much credit though.


Tyrael gave his immortality for mankind. He FLED heaven because he felt guilty of what had happened. He hid the stone, mal'thael stole it. He ISN'T the bad guy.
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08/25/2013 01:04 PMPosted by Vauer
Tyrael gave his immortality for mankind. He FLED heaven because he felt guilty of what had happened. He hid the stone, mal'thael stole it. He ISN'T the bad guy.
Question then, when Adria explained how she "tagged" the souls of the prime evils, specifically Mephisto and Diablo who's soulstones were destroyed at the Hellforge, why didn't Tyrael see through her guise? What reason would Adria have to put the souls of the prime/lesser evils into the soulstone when otherwise they would sit in the abyss for many many years? Why would Tyrael's plan involve putting all of the souls of the lords of hell into the stone to destroy it then later claim that he couldn't destroy the stone?

Are we seriously to believe that Adria's magic was necessary to destroy the stone? Are we seriously to believe that el'Druin could destroy the corrupted worldstone yet couldn't destroy the black soulstone? Are we seriously to believe that Tyrael fears the 7 lords of hell when the Nephalem already has destroyed the most powerful evil creature to exist since Tathamet was destroyed?

Tyrael gave his immortality for mankind, sure, but did his mortality come with corruption? Or perhaps he was corrupted while captured by Maghda? Regardless, his story does not add up. Again Kulle was right about Adria, what makes you so sure he was not right about Tyrael?
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08/25/2013 02:03 PMPosted by Enkidu
Are we seriously to believe that el'Druin could destroy the corrupted worldstone yet couldn't destroy the black soulstone?


It could destroy the Black Soulstone, but he didn't want to. He might have realised that breaking the soulstone would have resulted in the same thing as in Diablo 2.

He might've wanted to figure out what to do and guard it in the meantime.
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90 Troll Mage
10525
Question then, when Adria explained how she "tagged" the souls of the prime evils, specifically Mephisto and Diablo who's soulstones were destroyed at the Hellforge, why didn't Tyrael see through her guise? What reason would Adria have to put the souls of the prime/lesser evils into the soulstone when otherwise they would sit in the abyss for many many years? Why would Tyrael's plan involve putting all of the souls of the lords of hell into the stone to destroy it then later claim that he couldn't destroy the stone?

Are we seriously to believe that Adria's magic was necessary to destroy the stone? Are we seriously to believe that el'Druin could destroy the corrupted worldstone yet couldn't destroy the black soulstone? Are we seriously to believe that Tyrael fears the 7 lords of hell when the Nephalem already has destroyed the most powerful evil creature to exist since Tathamet was destroyed?

Tyrael gave his immortality for mankind, sure, but did his mortality come with corruption? Or perhaps he was corrupted while captured by Maghda? Regardless, his story does not add up. Again Kulle was right about Adria, what makes you so sure he was not right about Tyrael?


First things first, NO El'Druin destroyed the worldstone because it was already corrupted by Baal. Kulle was trying to manipulate you for HIS own good, and I do believe rituals are necessary to destroy soulstones. Look, if Tyrael sent Marius to the Hellforge to destroy LITTLE soulstones, I'ts obvious he can't destroy they big one. AND why did Tyrael rejoin the battle in heaven and did everything possible to restore peace in them?

All I'm trying to cope is: Tyrael is NOOT the bad guy
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08/25/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Vauer
Kulle was trying to manipulate you for HIS own good


While Kulle was indeed attempting to further his own plans, everything he did was to protect mortals from both the manipulations of Angels and Demons alike.

Something I find intriguing is that Kulle seemed to genuinely have honor and was about to give the Nephalem the Black Soul Stone when suddenly we decide he's gone (more) insane and so proceed to slay him.

~Regards
A Rampant AI~
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08/25/2013 03:28 PMPosted by Rain
It could destroy the Black Soulstone, but he didn't want to. He might have realised that breaking the soulstone would have resulted in the same thing as in Diablo 2.
Why would he care though? The Nephalem proved that both heaven and hell are no match for their powers. If the black soulstone were destroyed and the 7 lords were in the abyss for an unspecified amount of time (seems long) it's easy to assume many more Nephalem would be trained in the interim and Hell would no longer pose a threat to Sanctuary.

First things first, NO El'Druin destroyed the worldstone because it was already corrupted by Baal. Kulle was trying to manipulate you for HIS own good, and I do believe rituals are necessary to destroy soulstones. Look, if Tyrael sent Marius to the Hellforge to destroy LITTLE soulstones, I'ts obvious he can't destroy they big one. AND why did Tyrael rejoin the battle in heaven and did everything possible to restore peace in them?

All I'm trying to cope is: Tyrael is NOOT the bad guy
Why wouldn't el'Druin be able to destroy the black soulstone? It contains the 7 lords of hell, the worldstone in contrast only contained Baal's soul. Regardless to believe the black soulstone literally could not be destroyed you'd have to believe that Adria was the ONLY being in heaven or sanctuary with the knowledge to destroy the black soulstone and that's a rather lazy explanation. She had only known of the black soulstone for a mere 20ish years, Tyrael was aware of it's existence for many more years and seemed to have a plan to shatter it:

"But the Black Soulstone is flawed and cannot contain that many demons for long. We must capture Azmodan within it and shatter it... lest all these Evils be reborn." - Tyrael

Sounds like the hellforge to me!

Also explain why Tyrael did not see through Adria's guise post-Kulle fight. She just made Tyrael aware of the fact that she circumvented his original plan in Diablo 2 to destroy the soulstones and thus send the souls of Mephisto and Diablo to the abyss (or even worse she pulled their souls from the abyss). Had she not done this, their souls would have still been in the abyss. As I asked, what other reason would Adria have for "marking" the souls of the lords of hell when they were destroyed in Diablo 2? It's either a plot-hole or a sign that Kulle may have been right about Tyrael much like he was right about Adria.

And no, Kulle did not turn on the Nephalem, the Nephalem turned on him! Listen to his dialogue again, he tells the Nephalem to abandon their quest as they've been used as a puppet, then asks the Nephalem to join him instead. The Nephalem then basically says "give me the stone or I'll kill you", then proceeds to kill him. We started the fight, not Kulle.
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90 Troll Mage
10525
Why wouldn't el'Druin be able to destroy the black soulstone? It contains the 7 lords of hell, the worldstone in contrast only contained Baal's soul. Regardless to believe the black soulstone literally could not be destroyed you'd have to believe that Adria was the ONLY being in heaven or sanctuary with the knowledge to destroy the black soulstone and that's a rather lazy explanation. She had only known of the black soulstone for a mere 20ish years, Tyrael was aware of it's existence for many more years and seemed to have a plan to shatter it:

"But the Black Soulstone is flawed and cannot contain that many demons for long. We must capture Azmodan within it and shatter it... lest all these Evils be reborn." - Tyrael

Sounds like the hellforge to me!

Also explain why Tyrael did not see through Adria's guise post-Kulle fight. She just made Tyrael aware of the fact that she circumvented his original plan in Diablo 2 to destroy the soulstones and thus send the souls of Mephisto and Diablo to the abyss (or even worse she pulled their souls from the abyss). Had she not done this, their souls would have still been in the abyss. As I asked, what other reason would Adria have for "marking" the souls of the lords of hell when they were destroyed in Diablo 2? It's either a plot-hole or a sign that Kulle may have been right about Tyrael much like he was right about Adria.

And no, Kulle did not turn on the Nephalem, the Nephalem turned on him! Listen to his dialogue again, he tells the Nephalem to abandon their quest as they've been used as a puppet, then asks the Nephalem to join him instead. The Nephalem then basically says "give me the stone or I'll kill you", then proceeds to kill him. We started the fight, not Kulle.


"Give me the stone or I'll kill you" Well, he promised the stone for his body didn't he?, and as I said if he sent Marius to the hellforge to destroy little soulstones I highly doubt El'Druin could shatter them, I don't think it was specifically "El'Druin" that shattered the worldstone, but the power of an archaic Tyrael.
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08/25/2013 08:39 PMPosted by Vauer
"Give me the stone or I'll kill you" Well, he promised the stone for his body didn't he?, and as I said if he sent Marius to the hellforge to destroy little soulstones I highly doubt El'Druin could shatter them, I don't think it was specifically "El'Druin" that shattered the worldstone, but the power of an archaic Tyrael.
He did promise the stone, an empty black soulstone to capture Belial and Azmodan. He didn't promise a stone filled with 5 lords of hell including the 3 prime evils. In fact like I said it wasn't until after he found the souls of the 5 lords in the stone that he changed his mind and told the Nephalem to abandon their quest. Had the Nephalem listened, it's clear that Adria's plan would not have come to fruition as Kulle was on to her.

Leah would be alive, Kulle would still likely attempt to imprison Belial and Azmodan (and assuming he had more control over the stone he created, perhaps he could fix it's "flaw"), and Kulle would probably have attempted to imprison Imperious as well - had he intervened. Maybe even Tyrael! Kulle was chaotic good, he strove to free the restrictions placed on humans by heaven and hell and rise above both.

Also the "little" soulstones were shards of the worldstone. You're saying Tyrael could not have destroyed shards of the worldstone, yet he could destroy the worldstone itself? He likely insisted on Marious and the hero smashing the stones as to not draw attention from the heavens. And again Tyrael himself claimed the plan was to "shatter" the black soulstone, then after he usurped control of heaven he decides not too? Was Adria really necessary to destroy the stone? You would have to assume so, if you believe Tyrael's story. Personally I feel like that's a rather lame story. A being who has constructed soulstones in the past, destroyed the worldstone, and slain the demons of hell countless times has less knowledge then a witch who got knocked up by Diablo? Regardless, wouldn't Tyrael have known how Adria was going to accomplish this or was he okay with just a promise? Makes no sense, too much was on the line.

Blizzard can write whatever story they want, I just think it's far more compelling to have Tyrael either 1) corrupted or 2) Belial in disguise. It makes sense based on his past actions, it's either that or horrible writing (yeah 99.9% horrible writing...).
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I think, at this point, Tyrael or any of the other angels could very well have been corrupted by the Black Soulstone. In the RoS trailer the black "smoke" or "shadow" that was emanating from the BSS along with Tyrael's comments about Diablo's essence make me think it's entirely possible that was why Tyrael took the BSS back to Sanctuary. I'm guessing what happened will be reveled in RoS.

Could Tyrael be an antagonist in RoS? Sure! So could any of the angels for that matter.

Tyrael did say he couldn't destroy the BSS. He didn't say why. He didn't say it was a physical inability. Perhaps he's under Diablo's control? There's a lot of different possibilities...
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Probably was going to say "You should all leave" or something since staying near the BSS could be deadly and I'm guessing Tyrael has more resistance against the influence of the BSS.

Kinda silly how they hide stuff in Sanctuary and don't put any effective traps or just bury the whole thing in the first case.

Edit: If Blizzard does add this twist to the game it would probably annoy people even more after the whole Sheablo episode.
Edited by DeMasked#1233 on 8/27/2013 3:40 PM PDT
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Yeah lets not have one of the few remaining characters from the lore turn evil.....
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Pretty much everything speaks against Tyrael being a bad guy.
First of all, Blizzard can't be that mean to us to make the last remaining good guy, JUSTICE ITSELF; actually become evil just because he "got corrupted". That's just bad writing for one and unlikely to happen secondly.

1. He was about to say probably " You should all return to your homes and families" or something like that.

2. He did all of his actions for justice and for humankind.

3. Kulle has become mad and only wants power. He doesn't care about us humans becoming nephalem. He told us so much in order to make us revive him and because he kinda wanted us as a weapon against them.

4. Making him become "Wisdom" doesn't mean that he is now the boss of the Angiris Council, since Imperius became the new boss after Malthael and in the Book of Justice it is written, that he actually wasn't really liked by all the other angels anymore and so he fled.

5. He is kinda stuck with the fact that he can't destroy the stone, because that would basically mean all the demons will eventually come back, that's why he wants to hide it. It's such a powerful artifact that no one really should find it. That's why he hid it. If you've seen the animation called "Wrath" you'd get the idea. "He'd simply come back in time, but if we imprison him, surely the tides of war will turn to our favor"

6. Being the Aspect of Wisdom doesn't really mean that you know EVERYTHING. Malthael for instance didn't see the destruction of the worldstone coming.

7. Adria pretty much was possessed by Diablo / served Diablo. That's why she helped putting all the Souls into the Black Soulstone. It was all planned by Diablo so he could become the "Prime Evil". Everything from D1 to D3 was all a big plan. So we'll see if the part after defeating the Prime Evil is kinda a part of his plan as well..

8. According to the Lore, only at the Hellforge can banish the Souls to the Black Abyss. But we saw what happened last time, so there's a risk involved with that. Just like in D1 times, we gotta hide it from errybody. El'Druin couldn't destroy them "properly". But even destroying them, they'll be in the Black Abyss and eventually come back. It's always been a plan to trap them. That's a way better plan.
The Soulstones are meant to be traps, so they can't get out. But at this point, the BSS probably might be a bit corrupt, so who knows if they actually could manage to corrupt something.

9. Nephalem are stronger than the angels and demons, so Tyrael wouldn't wanna mess with us.

10. What the High Heavens didn't know back then was that the Soulstones could get corrupted.
"What even the High Heavens did not know was that the soulstones were the centerpiece of a diabolical plan by the Prime Evils in order to make way for the invasion of Sanctuary. The Prime Evils were told by Izual that they could use the power of the Soulstones to tap into the power of the Worldstone while they were in Sanctuary. According to their plan, they orchestrated their own exile into Sanctuary and used their powers to corrupt the very soulstones that held their essence.
"
11. Plot-Holes ? Maybe? Or it's just insanely confusing.
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No offense OP, but if this is how the storyline played out I'd be pretty outraged.

Tyrael being the mastermind behind everything makes little to no sense and would contradict a whole bunch of events in the preceding games/lore. To be honest It sounds like something that casual players would go bananas for because "reasons/who cares/EPIX TWISTZ!", while those that know the lore inside-out would just shake their head in shame.

That said, I do think there is a distinct possibility of Tyrael becoming corrupted in some form or another, but that will be outside of his control.
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8. According to the Lore, only at the Hellforge can banish the Souls to the Black Abyss. But we saw what happened last time, so there's a risk involved with that. Just like in D1 times, we gotta hide it from errybody. El'Druin couldn't destroy them "properly". But even destroying them, they'll be in the Black Abyss and eventually come back. It's always been a plan to trap them. That's a way better plan.
The Soulstones are meant to be traps, so they can't get out. But at this point, the BSS probably might be a bit corrupt, so who knows if they actually could manage to corrupt something.

9. Nephalem are stronger than the angels and demons, so Tyrael wouldn't wanna mess with us.

10. What the High Heavens didn't know back then was that the Soulstones could get corrupted.
"What even the High Heavens did not know was that the soulstones were the centerpiece of a diabolical plan by the Prime Evils in order to make way for the invasion of Sanctuary. The Prime Evils were told by Izual that they could use the power of the Soulstones to tap into the power of the Worldstone while they were in Sanctuary. According to their plan, they orchestrated their own exile into Sanctuary and used their powers to corrupt the very soulstones that held their essence.
"
11. Plot-Holes ? Maybe? Or it's just insanely confusing.
8. Doesn't make much sense. The "Black Abyss" is said to hold the demons for quite some time, it would be FAR better for mortals to simply banish them to the abyss. It makes little sense to keep the stone in Sanctuary where time has proven the influence of demons can easily corrupt man (Mephisto and the council for example).

9. Exactly, both heaven and hell *should* fear the Nephalem - Tyrael should not as an ALLY. Tyrael also should not fear the lords of hell or the angels of heaven, none are a match for the Nephalem who single-handedly (or in a party, not sure official lore) defeated the most powerful creature in heaven/hell/sanctuary. Him stashing the stone is suspect because of these reasons.

10. This was known in D2, suffice to say Tyrael should have known better then doing the same exact thing a second time around... So you have a choice: plot hole or Tyrael has some sort of plan. Whether that plan is good or evil, we'll see what they write. They're pretty good with filling game lore with plot holes and letting the real writers correct them with retcons, so we'll see...

To say that Tyrael could not be corrupted because of lore is simply wrong. Angels being corrupted is a major theme in the Diablo universe, whether or not it happens is simply the writers choice.
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