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Seismic slam: Remove the KB from all but one rune, and add in elemental attacks/damages:
Stagger: should keep the KB, and reduce its fury cost
Shattered ground: Lightning bolts shoot down from the heavens and strike enemies with a chance to stun, (lightning based) I think the initial enemy should be stunned, and maybe those within 3 yards, then have random bolts shoot off of the main impact site (fist of the heavens anyone?) and those will deal mid range damages.
Rumble: Stalagmites fall from the sky, crushing and dealing damage, (physical based) The crushing effect should slow the enemies movement, mid-upper range damage.
Cracking rift: Armageddon type brimstone rain from the sky and burn the enemy over time, (fire based) Impacts should be random and deal massive damages with a decent burn damage radius as well.
Strength from Earth: Huge ice shards slow enemies with a chance to freeze. (cold based) Have this rune deal a lower amount of damage to make up for the slowing/freezing effects.
All runes besides stagger, should have a flat fury cost of 25.
Sojs should roll - SS cost instead of % crit chance.
Edited by RagingKoala#1984 on 9/1/2013 5:04 AM PDT
It wouldn't take a lot to make Seismic Slam a great alternative to the current builds. The biggest killer is the knockback though.
Seismic slam damage is fine IMO. I think the fury cost is a little high though, 5 less fury would probably suffice.
Slam needs to pass through the walls that Waller affix elites spawn. It already passes through a lot of walls in the environment, but if you encounter a waller pack, you have to rely on another damage source to reliably kill it.
Stagger rune should remove the knockback effect to give us a great party friendly rune. (most people nowadays hate effects like knockback and fear). Also the double CC is really a bit stupid.
Cracking rift needs more damage or another effect. There's no situation where you would use Cracking rift over any HotA rune.
Shattered ground is a bit useless. I can't think of any reason why you would want to knock monsters back twice as far. The knockback is a pseudo-CC ability, and if you can throw another slam before the monsters can recover from your first, there's no reason to knock them back further.
Strength from Earth is fine the way it is. If you're 1-shotting most white monsters it works great. Also if your Crit Chance is low the low fury cost makes it easier to gather enough fury for your first slam.
Rumble is also fine as is. The secondary tremors can crit and really assist with keeping fury up when playing higher MP levels. The 60% damage on the secondary tremors is at a good point too.
I think SoJ's rolling Crit Chance on slam is fine. I believe the skill is intended to be used with Into the Fray and therefore the Crit Chance synergy is perfect.
I go into a bit more detail in a thread I posted recently.
I have used seismic slam as my primary damage skill from before the paragon patch, and I am just about to hit p100. So I'd be happy to give more examples or answer questions regarding how I use Seismic Slam.
Nubtro, great post, very constructive.
Ancient Spear: Awesome, awesome skill. Like Cyclone Strike for monks. It's amazing. Problems:
a) Requiring a passive to make an active skill useable makes the active pointless. Ancient Spear is the only skill that costs 2 skill slots! And even still the reset is rng! Really?!?
b) Doesn't synergize with WT (it's intended partner). Why bring enemies closer with a distance build? SYNERGIZES WITH HOTA! REALLY WELL!!! Try it. AS and HotA are twins separated at birth!!!
c) The skill's utilities are 1, bring enemies close. And 2... Well wait, that's it. Fury gen is still only 1.5% per sec (complete crap like every Barb skill except ITF)... Even with No Escape, Harpoon is the only useable skill. The rest are utter junk because the cooldown sucks too much to give them utility.
d) Control of this skill is terrible. Even if you proc the cooldown with No Escape, the animation time seems to trump keyboard and mouse input.
1) No Escape's reset should be innate... AS is completely unuseable otherwise. Maybe No Escape increases fury gen to 25 per throw?
2) Improve control. If I throw a spear in one direction then 180 to the opposite side, the clicks should register even before the animation is complete.
ANCIENT SPEAR (AS)
1. Cooldown on a single target/small AoE skill that deals damage:
-> the only way to bypass it is tied to a passive skill and without it you get a skill that´s never accessible (1 shot wait 10 seconds for another);
-> the cooldown reset mechanics itself is unreliable, not only is an additional skill needed but it also requires another roll (critical & proc); even with max crit (93%) the skill isn´t spammable;
2. AS interrupts the animation of other skills unlike Overpower.
3. Damage of the skill itself is very low and becomes negligible with the limited availability.
4. The slowing and dragging utility is questionable in PvE because of its limited effect on elites and very small AoE (mostly single target); monsters running away are easily dealt with with other skills and mobility.
5. The ranged fury generator aspect is inefficient due to availability issues
6. The end result of the previous points is an unavailable skill that doesn´t really deal damage and its intended utility aspect does not correspond with the needs of players in the current state of the game.
7. For the lols the Scorpion fatality theme, albeit cool, doesn´t really fit well in the whole Hulk and Conan gameplay fantasy of physical evil destroyers who don´t need to drag enemies towards them because of physical prowess (fast on the feet and even leaping at targets)
Suggested improvements (changing the skill function as a whole)
1. Function (utility) -> Ranged DoT with limited AoE (single target / straight line) that grants various bonuses.
2. Animation -> Throw an immense piercing spear that deals DoT.
-> cooldown: 10 seconds
a) critical hits have a chance to lower its cooldown by 1 second (Overpower mechanics) or
b) critical hits reset its cooldown (without the need of another skill) and add HotA mechanics of gaining a crit chance bonus for each 5 fury you have (this goes against the nature of a fury generating skill though)
-> generate: 20 fury; additional 10 fury for crit roll on the initial frame
-> higher total DoT damage and shorter duration than Rend due to smaller AoE and having to aim
-> suggested value: 750% weapon damage over 3 seconds (1.8x Rend dps, slightly higher total damage per cast)
5. No rune (base effects):
-> deals poison damage;
-> gain a 10% crit damage bonus for 10 seconds after scoring a critical hit with AS, this bonus can stack up to 5 times;
-> slows affected enemies by 60%;
-> attacks against the affected enemies generate 3 additional Fury;
-> affected enemies have an increased chance to leave behind a health globe when they die;
6. Runes add (1) elemental bonuses, (2) on crit effects and (3) on kill effects
A) Dread Judgment:
-> keeps poison damage and heals attackers for 2% of the damage done to affected enemies;
-> affected enemies have their attack speed reduced by 20%
-> critical hits immobilize targets for 2 sec
-> the effect jumps to 2 nearby targets when the affected enemy dies
B) Massacre Mayhem:
-> turns AS into physical bleeding damage;
-> gain a 2% attack speed bonus and movement speed bonus for 10 seconds after scoring a critical hit with AS; this bonus can stack up to 5 times;
-> enemies killed while bleeding cause all enemies within 10 yards to begin bleeding for 150% weapon damage as physical over 3 seconds
C) Ice Block Partisan:
-> turns AS into cold damage and increases the slowing effect to 80%
-> critical hits have a 50% chance to freeze enemies for 2 seconds
-> affected enemies leave behind a patch of ice when they die, dealing 400% weapon damage as cold over 3 seconds to enemies passing through
D) Lightning Fury:
-> turns AS into direct chain lightning damage
-> gain an additional 10% critical damage bonus for 10 seconds after scoring a critical hit with AS, which can stack up to 5 times
-> enemies killed by Lightning Fury stun nearby targets for 2.5 seconds
E) Fire at Work:
-> turns AS into fire damage
-> critical hits apply a burning effect, causing affected enemies to take 15% more damage
-> affected enemies explode when slain, dealing 20% of their maximum life as damage to enemies within 8 yards
The ranged Barb has a very solid main damage dealer/fury spender (Seismic Slam) and an unusual type of a primary skill (Weapon Throw). Both skills need a bit of reworking/tweaking but I feel like AS could fit in the role of support DPS/utility, working as a mix of Rend (DoT) and Overpower (cooldown mechanics).
The basic idea here is paying tribute to the Javazon (D2). Her bow/crossbow skills have found a place in the DH skillset, but her spear/javelin skill tree was slightly forgotten. Seeing as the Crusader will be the Capt. America of D3, getting the ability to throw ricocheting crusader shields around and the DH already plays with knives, I´d say Barb is the closest to inheriting some of those Amazon skills based on their physical prowess.
Base Ancient Spear could be like Poison/Plague Javelin and instead of bleeding (Rend) would apply a poison DoT. The base rune version would keep the slowing effect (CC), get a unique offensive, stacking crit damage bonus (on crit effect) and also increase the chance to find health globes (on kill effect). Attacks against the affected enemies would generate 3 Fury (in order to diversify fury generation from ITF focus).
The runes would change the element of the skill, apply various fitting on crit and on kill effects and or bonuses. Again there´s almost no limits what can be done with the skill.
Note that most of these suggestions can be implemented even if the function and animation of the skill stays the same. The most important thing is to include an active cooldown mechanic that would help with the availability of the skill. You can´t expect us to like to have a skill that requires the use of another skill just to have a chance to be available plus a RNG roll is needed, not to mention the skill´s utility is at best debatable. Another thing that could help tremendously is changing the priority of the skill to secondary just like Overpower, meaning that it would not interrupt your primary skill animation.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/3/2013 8:05 AM PDT
POUND OF FLESH
1. Gain 1.5% of all damage done as life.
2. Increases chance to find a health globe by 25%.
3. Health globes heal 25% additional life.
4. Picking up a health globe generates 20 Fury.
5. Health globe grants the following bonuses for 10 seconds, which can stack up to 5 times (choose some):
-> 1% critical hit chance,
-> 2% damage,
-> 3% movement speed,
-> 4% increased fury generation,
-> 6% strength,
-> 10% critical hit damage.
6. Synergy with active skills:
-> attack speed increased by 25%;
-> slain enemies rest in pieces;
-> bleeding duration increased by 1 second and all runes gain a 60% slowing effect;
-> killing affected enemies causes blood to splash at enemies within 8 yards, blinding them for 2 seconds.
-> Increases critical hit chance of WW by 10%.
-> No movement speed penalty.
Fuse the skill with Bloodhtirst, rename it to Bloodstained and rework it to function more like Gruesome Feast (WD). Its theme would be cutting, bleeding, blood splash, health globes and various blood bonuses. I particularly like the idea of health globes being an alternative Fury generating source both by direct fury gain per globe and by a finite increased fury generation.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/3/2013 8:03 AM PDT
1. Reduces damage from melee attacks by 10%.
2. Reduces damage from ranged attacks by 10%.
3. 40% CC reduction.
4. Whenever a CC is cast on you, you have a chance to heal 10% of your max life.
5. Thorns gain a damage bonus from Strength.
6. Thorns damage increased by 25%.
7. Synergy with active skills:
A) FURIOUS CHARGE
-> has no cooldown;
-> Furious Charge gains a damage bonus equal to your movement speed bonus;
-> Thorns damage is added to your Furious Charge hits;
-> whenever you kill an enemy with Furious Charge, you gain 5% movement speed for 10 seconds, which can stack up to 5 times.
-> you gain an additional 10% movement speed bonus when using Sprint
-> you leave behind a fire trail that deals 40% weapon damage as fire over 2 seconds
A mix of old Juggernaut and Tough as Nails with some special effects. This passive should make you an unstoppable force and synergize well with Thorns and Furious Charge. In addition to some defensive bonuses, the idea here is to create a unique synergy by binding a damage bonus to your mobility (movement speed) and/or to Furious Charge, which seems fitting for its animation. The faster you are the stronger the Charge should be.
1. Relatively low eDPS among Fury spenders.
Slam is one of the main 3 (spammable) Barb Fury spenders beside WW and HotA, so its damage aspect should be the #1 priority. WW (with the help of Sprint RLTW) outperforms Slam in large AoE and utility and HotA in small AoE due to the following reasons:
1.1. Slow(est) animation speed between casts (78/aps), which is 37% slower than HotA, so the actual relative dps of the skill is more like 175% and not 240% when compared to HotA; even stutter-stepping doesn´t help here much. Note that this hidden slow frequency is quite a problem for the average joe who tries to compare skills.
1.2. No real synergy with other skills that would stack more damage beside the Slam on the target.
Close combatants may use Punish/Maniac stacks, Rend and Overpower to increase their effective damage output. From a pure ranged perspective, Slam only has very limited options. Rend isn´t ideal because monsters are continuously knocked out of its range. The same applies to Bash/Frenzy, you can´t use such skills on targets that you just sent a screen away. Overpower isn´t hopeless with Storm of Steel and I really like that animation, but you´re losing the much needed 10% crit chance bonus from Killing Spree this way.
The Barb´s ranged skill options Weapon Throw and Ancient Spear are both separate high priority attacks that interrupt Slam usage, deal less damage and bring no damage increasing bonuses to the table. There´s a few easy fixes to this situation, which are suggested below.
2. Relatively high base Fury cost. With high crit chance and ITF, Rumble is spammable just fine but the other main damage dealers have a lower cost and higher damage output, which makes Slam the least cost efficient spender.
3. Knockback being the default CC for all of Slam´s runes.
Knockback is very useful for keeping monsters away from you and promotes a ranged playstyle, not to mention it fits well with the Slam animation, but it´s simply not very party-friendly. I have a difficult time imagining a party where Knockback would be welcome as most other skills rely on aiming and hitting a target, which is not possible if it gets regularly thrown out of position.
4. Skill runes are too similar (no real variation), could use some spice.
The concept of the skill, its animation and AoE is amazing, but it currently lacks in a few aspects and their sum prevents Slam from being used more often (it´s actually the 3rd least used active skill right now). I think that´s a shame, because it´s one of, if not, the coolest Barb skill(s).
1. Damage: largest AoE so you have to be careful to not go overboard
1.1. Keep frequency but make a buffed Rumble the default rune for damage and utility (Rumble is still just 220% relative weapon damage compared to HotA) and or increase its base animation frequency between Slams.
1.2. Ranged synergy:
-> rework Ancient Spear to a DoT as suggested here http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9786108545?page=2#24
-> WT Mighty Throw should grant a damage bonus similar to Punish and Maniac, slightly lower (15-18% max stacks for 6 sec) due to faster cast frequency of WT and slow frequency of Slam (to get in more Slams between refreshing stacks)
-> all Overpower runes should grant a crit chance bonus (shift Killing Spree to base rune) in which case Storm of Steel becomes a viable support rune for ranged (damage oriented) Barbs
-> create a new passive similar to DH´s Steady Aim with (no enemies within x yards), increase the damage bonus to 15% (or grant an IAS + mobility bonus) and make it reverse scale with pickup radius (more pickup radius -> less yards for the effect to become active)
2. Availability: reduce the base cost to 25 Fury and/or grant the skill itself the ability to generate 3 fury on crits
3. No rune (base effects):
-> damage - main shockwave deals 250% weapon damage and 2 additional shockwaves deal 30% each (like Rumble)
-> CC - Knockback stays
4. Runes (1) element (2) on crit (3) on kill effects
a) Stagger: the initial shockwave pushes enemies towards you (like Call of Arreat or Wrenching Smash)
- element – just your weapon damage, reverse Knockback
- on crit – stun the target for 1.5 sec
- on kill - affected enemies have an increased chance to leave behind a health globe when they die
b) Typhoon: initial shockwave creates a dense cloud of tornadoes
- element – physical DoT, loses Knockback
- on crit – immobilize the target for 2 sec
- on kill – slain enemies are lacerated into small pieces that deal direct damage to nearby enemies
- element – direct physical damage, damage and Knockback increased by 25%
- on crit – affected targets inflict 50% weapon damage to enemies where they land
- on kill – create a tremor that slows the movement speed of affected enemies by 80%
d) Strength from Earth: initial shockwave releases magma from the ground
- element – direct fire damage, keeps Knockback
- on crit – create a small explosion that generates 1 fury for each enemy hit
- on kill – slain enemies leave behind a pool of fire that deals Dot damage to enemies passing through it
e) Arctic Rift: initial shockwave creates sharp ice shards
– element – direct cold damage, keeps Knockback
- on crit - ice shards Blind affected enemies
- on kill – ice shard explosion that deals damage to nearby enemies
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/5/2013 11:19 AM PDT
Thanks Shaman, I appreciate that.
Also thanks to everyone who participated so far.
1. I think the first week was pretty successful. I´ve collected all the ideas in their corresponding skill links. Be sure to check them out. Sorry for the delay, it was quite a lot of work beside coming up with ideas myself.
Week 1 (previous)
1. Call of the Ancients
2. Ancient Spear
3. Seismic Slam
4. Pound of Flesh
If you still have new ideas or feel like something important is missing when it comes to week 1 skills, keep on posting. Note that I don´t want to be called out for just promoting my own ideas through this thread, so my suggestions are always at the bottom for each skill ideas.
2. I´ve decided to trim the "what to post" part a bit to mostly focus on the improvement ideas for the expansion - skill improvements and legendary affixes. Of course you may still post how to use the given skill right now to maximize its efficiency and it´s part of the thought process (testing->it doesn´t work->why doesn´t it work->how to change it to make it work), but I don´t want you to feel forced to post all that stuff, but rather focus on the skill improvement ideas.
3. The new "week" is hereby open with five new skills to improve. Give it your best ;)
Week 2 (current)
2. Threatening Shout
3. Furious Charge
4. Boon of Bul-Kathos
4. Note that I´m considering moving the general part to the RoS subforums so that more RoS oriented people participate, there´s probably a higher chance that constructive RoS-related feedback will be acknowledged there.
I´ll try to talk to some well respected members of class forums if they feel like opening their branch, if only because every class deserves attention and I don´t want Barbs to be flamed just because they try to be somewhat organized :/
I´d still like to keep the bulk of the discussion here in the Barb forums though.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/6/2013 12:34 AM PDT
Hi Nived that´s another issue I was working on the past week, which I didn´t mention, but was the main reason for the delay...
It´s very clear when you try to come up with ideas to improve skills that you´ll notice that cooldowns are in many cases the main reason of a skill´s low usage stats. It´s because of lack of active cooldown mechanics.
I personally don´t think flat damage reduction will save the day. It will help, yeah, but if our skills stay like they are today, you´ll be forced to equip a cooldown affix and it still won´t make stuff like quake "spammable".
I´d love to have more active cooldown mechanics implemented (like Grave Injustice, Critical Mass, Overpower mechanics, Merciless Assault, Illusionist) to give active players availability based on how involved they are in battle and not how much flat reduction they stack on gear. I mean I´d love to have the option to choose based on my preferences and playstyle. Either to get gear with CD reduction or choose a skill that grants me CD reduction on kills/crits/globes or even both when I feel like it.
Anyway, here´s the general part of the discussion I´m preparing.
Community feedback: Skill cooldowns
But yeah, please focus on skill improvement suggestions for now until I open a separate discussion about skill cooldowns ;)
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/6/2013 12:38 AM PDT
"The concept of the skill, its animation and AoE is amazing, but it currently lacks in a few aspects and their sum prevents Slam from being used more often (it´s actually the 3rd least used active skill right now). I think that´s a shame, because it´s one of, if not, the coolest Barb skill(s)."
I would love to see slam made viable at high mps....I currently use it on lower mps and just wreck everything, but the lack of edps forces me to go with other skills at the top end. Great thread Nubtro.
First all hail Nubtro!
I read some where that we will get new passives as well.. And I only have 1 wish: Titan Grip passive. So I can dual wield 2-hander like a true Canon/hulk char. I want a IAS skorn in mainhand and a LS butchers cleaver in offhand :-) ... Maybe trade off for this passive can be movement speed just as it will be for crusader passive allowing hi, 2 hander plus shield.
/doc EU barb
Edited by DrKuYleh#2271 on 9/6/2013 4:59 AM PDT
You can post your ideas here and/or the links therein:
Thanks Riff for attempting to revive this topic.
I´ve just opened another one to ask people to show a bit more enthusiasm.
Anyway, here is my take on
1. Range -> increased by your gold pickup radius
2. Availability -> active on kill cooldown reduction; casting no longer generates Fury
3. Utility -> attacks against the affected enemies have a chance to generate resource (3 Fury)
4. Offense -> affected enemies take 8% more damage (multiplicative party damage bonus)
5. Defense -> reduces damage done by affected enemies by 20% for 15 seconds
a) "hard defensive debuff" -> immobilizes, reduces enemy movement and attack speed
b) "panic button / ranged playstyle" -> causes Knockback/Fear and deals 100% weapon damage
c) "monster gathering" –> taunts enemies to attack you and increases their movement speed (reverse Fear)
d) "farming" –> chance for additional drops on cast and causes Confusion
e) "party buffs" –> increases offensive debuff to 11% and resource generation on hits to 4
7. “Rebel Yell” legendary barbarian helm (blonde spiky hair appearance :)
-> 201-230 strength, 5-6% crit chance, 8-10 pickup radius, socket, 2 random magic properties
-> improves the wearer´s Threatening Shout efficiency (hidden bonuses):
- TS has no cooldown but costs 10 Fury
- TS now deals an additional 200% weapon damage
- TS crits have a chance to Stun affected enemies for 1.5 sec
- the heads of enemies killed by TS explode, creating a shockwave that deals 40% weapon damage to nearby enemies
Active cooldown reduction is needed because of monster density and the pace of the game while playing a Barb. The range increase makes pickup radius slightly more important.
Change from Fury generator to costless skill with a chance to generate resource against affected enemies because Barb Fury generation needs diversification from the mandatory Into the Fray. The more options to generate Fury, the more build diversity. I´d actually consider using TS even over ITF if it worked like this, coupled with a few other sources of Fury generation,
The on hit resource proc could apply to all party members. Giving this effect to a single rune would not be wise, because of the possible “ITF effect” (overreliance on 1 rune because of its unique effect – too good to pass up).
The damage bonus effect is probably the most important addition because Barb is the only class without party damage buffs and TS would fill this position perfectly - it would work similar to Battle Cry (D2), which lowered enemy damage and defense. TS would also keep its former defensive debuff effect.
Each rune has a specific function as their short description shows. I´m really fond of the reverse Fear (taunt) rune which could be an alternative to the current Barbarian monster gathering abilities Leap – Call of Arreat and Stomp – Wrenching Smash.
The legendary helm, all jokes aside, would create the opportunity for other classes to cast TS or improve the casting efficiency of a Barb shouter. Basically each class would gain the base version of TS while the Barb would also gain the rune effect if he put TS (the skill) into his build. The issue here is implementing a free “7th skill” in case of other classes, but I´d have no problem with making it an unique Barb-only helm if free skills are not an option. The idea for the helm effects are borrowed from D2´s War Cry skill which dealt damage and stunned.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/13/2013 9:57 AM PDT
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