Diablo® III

Deckard Cain was the last living Horadrim

Sorry OP, but you are incorrect in your assumption this is a plot-hole. I can only assume you've only played the games in the series and haven't delved into the written lore;

-Tyrael is the one who originally assembled the Horadrim during the Dark Exile.
-He enlisted them to help capture and hide the soulstones.
-Deckard Cain was the last of their bloodline.

-Tyrael has now enlisted a new group of warriors to train as Horadrim.
-Their first task is to hide the soulstone. (see the parallels here?)

Please explain to me where the plot-holes are?
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08/28/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Alexandros


smh.....

Why does that quotation deserve your shake of the head? There was nothing all that great about the story to begin with (my opinion only) and it was pretty simplistic.

Now, if you want to get technical about it, the original team that made Diablo and Diablo II had no idea what they were doing for a story when they started development of the first game. There was no real story until the video team created the final sequence where the Warrior jams Diablo's soulstone into his head. They didn't even know that was going to be part of the game until after the scene's addition. Of similar note, the story didn't really have any other fleshing out until Blizzard assigned Chris Metzen to it.

What you should keep in mind when you find yourself getting overly irritated about the story, is that Chris Metzen is the man behind the story in all three games. You could argue that the story in Diablo III was less dark and brooding than the previous games, or that the presentation wasn't as good, but it was still the same guy writing it. =)


Point of clarification, Chris Metzen was among the writers for the first two Diablo games. Significant difference from being the main writer for D3. Also, he is not the main writer for Reaper of Souls, which I find interesting.
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"But hey who cares about the story, let's just retcon a few more things like we did with Aidan and his brother, oh and bring old names like we did with Skeleton King and The Butcher, let's do that to our new expansion and enforce even more nostalgia. That totally worked with D3, let's do this again."
Also, inb4 Crusader is in fact a Horadrim.
If you're curious about recent Diablo lore and are legitimately interested in the answers to the questions you seek, I would highly recommend you check out some of our recent literary offerings, especially [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4876853"]The Order[/url], [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10399249"]Sword of Justice[/url], and the upcoming [url="https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10580514/diablo-iii-book-of-tyrael-pre-orders-now-available-8-15-2013"]Diablo III: Book of Tyrael[/url]. Many of your questions will be answered there, though there is certainly more to come. ;)


Here is my problem with that statement. I played the game to get most if not all of the information about the game and it's characters WITHIN the game. To visually see what's happening, and to imagine later on. Not to read and potentially pay for a hard cover of a book to get all the "Main" plot details that should have been expressed in game!...

The sheer, staggering amount of time there was to develop the game, and we got an extremely shallow and too predictable, horrible Hollywood-esk story line, is unacceptable. When there is discussion about the story line, is there at all just that moment of Awe when an idea is thrown out there that would make yours or others spines tremble? Or is it all just, eh throw it in!

Ever since Wrath of the Lich King the story lines have seemed a tad bit... off. There just isn't that mystical mystery for a particular universe at all.

I understand you CM's take the brunt of the heat when it comes to the community feedback because you cannot give us any details at all until your 10 meetings about having a meeting, to meet for a meeting is complete. So we all know your job is stressful. However when it comes to certain feed back suggestions that have been stated for almost two years it's a bit ridiculous to know that the game went from being mainly story focused to being a cash cow.

I will not buy RoS until I know for sure the story has SO much to deliver on in many aspects that your older games used to posses. I did not buy HotS for that exact same reason.

Right now I only play your games out of sheer boredom, to gather any sort of enjoyment to fill my time when other games just wont do it. I grew up with your stories, so yes that expectation has shaped my mind to expect better or not more. So am I biased? Yes! But I remember just becoming so immersed in those older games because of not just the dialect, the visuals, and the music which by the way played a HUGE role in those games. But the fact that the story was just so amazing. Game play is one thing but does anyone really notice that when you're stuck on the story?

At this point my thoughts are becoming off-topic and scattered. But my points still stand.

Thank god for those who do buy these games and record them as well as uploading them to their favorite sites for others to view.

I have a Love-Hate relationship right now with you Blizzard, and for years this frustration has encumbered me.
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Here is my problem with that statement. I played the game to get most if not all of the information about the game and it's characters WITHIN the game. To visually see what's happening, and to imagine later on. Not to read and potentially pay for a hard cover of a book to get all the "Main" plot details that should have been expressed in game!...


I'd argue that the "Main" plot details were in fact in the game. The books do more to expand the universe as opposed to explaining the games, you'll actually find that little to nothing at all is said about the main plot of Diablo 3 in the companion books.

The vast majority of info is given directly through the game, sometimes you need to dig for it, but it's all there. :)
Edited by DamienJohn#1321 on 8/28/2013 10:50 PM PDT
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From what I have gathered in my readings and playing:

Aiden was presumed lost at war. He was exiled by his mad father, Leoric. He came back to help a band of heroes cleanse Tristram. He then imprisoned the Soulstone within himself to hold Diablo at bay.

At this time, he was pulled to the east by Diablo(through the soulstone). See events in D2. On his way out of Tristram he has a tryst with Adria. Queue Leah.

This stands the test of all three games, as even if you are a wizard or rogue in the first game, it is still a warrior that takes the soulstone into themselves.
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Tyrael formed the original Horadrim.

Tyrael is now a mortal angel, living amongst the humans in Sanctuary.

Common sense says Tyrael will train new Horadrim to aid this new generation of heroes.


Because Diablo 3 story all make sense. I agree. Who care really.

The story goes like this . Angel want to kill everyone . Tyrone cannot stop it. 60 min later our hero beating the bad angel with milkshake in one hand and sandwich in the other hand. While listening to Myile cyrcs and bieber ::)
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08/28/2013 09:55 PMPosted by Alexandros
Why does that quotation deserve your shake of the head? There was nothing all that great about the story to begin with (my opinion only) and it was pretty simplistic.


I think the story thing got outta hand. I enjoyed the simplicity and wonder that the diablo 1 and 2 had....Less is more sometimes.....
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08/28/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Liberty
Why does that quotation deserve your shake of the head? There was nothing all that great about the story to begin with (my opinion only) and it was pretty simplistic.


I think the story thing got outta hand. I enjoyed the simplicity and wonder that the diablo 1 and 2 had....Less is more sometimes.....

Fair enough. I can't really blame you for enjoying the simplicity. I'd actually say it was nicer in some ways myself. =D
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Why does that quotation deserve your shake of the head? There was nothing all that great about the story to begin with (my opinion only) and it was pretty simplistic.

Now, if you want to get technical about it, the original team that made Diablo and Diablo II had no idea what they were doing for a story when they started development of the first game. There was no real story until the video team created the final sequence where the Warrior jams Diablo's soulstone into his head. They didn't even know that was going to be part of the game until after the scene's addition. Of similar note, the story didn't really have any other fleshing out until Blizzard assigned Chris Metzen to it.

What you should keep in mind when you find yourself getting overly irritated about the story, is that Chris Metzen is the man behind the story in all three games. You could argue that the story in Diablo III was less dark and brooding than the previous games, or that the presentation wasn't as good, but it was still the same guy writing it. =)


Point of clarification, Chris Metzen was among the writers for the first two Diablo games. Significant difference from being the main writer for D3. Also, he is not the main writer for Reaper of Souls, which I find interesting.

If he is indeed not a principal writer for the expansion, maybe the story will actually be better and not so cheesy. They've said as much, I just hope it turns out to be legitimately the case.

As for the first two games though. I know how the credits read but there's more to the story than that. The Schaefer brothers and David Brevik wrote just about nothing for Diablo I. They didn't even know where to begin. All that mattered was that they created a gothic RPG where you enjoyed the grind instead of hating it. They succeeded. The cinematic for the ending was delivered to them by Blizzard's newly founded cinematics department at the end of the development cycle and it almost exclusively set up the story for the second game. They didn't even know how their game would end before receiving that video. Also, Metzen and Sexton (Sexton mostly responsible for quest writing, not the overarching story) were really the only two writers on the project that got much of anything done, with Metzen being the lead on concept and editing. This was continued with him as the lead in Diablo II as the concept and story editor. He has been the guy where Diablo's story is concerned since the beginning (I'm not necessarily saying that's a good thing). If you'd like to find more on the early days of Blizzard North, David Craddock is a writer that knows that story intimately and was, at least, writing a book based on that history. =)
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Can somebody explain something for me... It's been bothering me for a long time.

How is Tyrael a "mortal" angel?

Angels are made out of light and sound, since when did they become flesh and blood by "ripping their wings out"? They'd still light and sound... it makes zero sense whatsoever.

Or Is he only in the guise of mortal form, like Inarius was? This makes more sense, but likely isn't the case since Tyrael continues to be completely useless, and constantly complains about "mortal things."

Honestly, Tyrael becoming human is a huge gaping plot hole that sucks everything else into its void of absolute stupidity.

Can you just make Tyrael an actual angel again so we can get past this stupidity and forget it ever happened?
Edited by Blade#1638 on 8/29/2013 12:14 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Hunter
0
08/28/2013 02:39 AMPosted by ramiel
Actually, it was D2 that revealed that the dark wanderer was Aidan, elder brother of Albrecht


Provide the source or be silent for the eternity.


I thought I remembered this from playing Diablo 2, but apparently I remembered wrong.

But no matter what I remembered, there is nothing in either D1 or D2 that precludes the dark wanderer from being Aidan.

Sort of like how there's nothing in The Hobbit that precludes the ring from being "evil" in Lord of the Rings.
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Provide the source or be silent for the eternity.


I thought I remembered this from playing Diablo 2, but apparently I remembered wrong.

But no matter what I remembered, there is nothing in either D1 or D2 that precludes the dark wanderer from being Aidan.

Sort of like how there's nothing in The Hobbit that precludes the ring from being "evil" in Lord of the Rings.


Well, nobody in Tristram recognizes you, and the warrior (Aidan) doesn't know who Albrecht(now his brother) or anybody else is.

It's a small plot hole, and isn't a huge deal that it's changed.

This stands the test of all three games, as even if you are a wizard or rogue in the first game, it is still a warrior that takes the soulstone into themselves.


Blood Raven is the Rogue from D1, The summoner is the Wizard from D1, Aidan/The dark Wanderer is the warrior from D1.

Tyrael on the other hand single handedly ruined the game for me.

I can deal with the obvious lord of lies(I, the worthless kid who tried to kill you(jk by the way) can talk to you from afar because I stole a seerstone, not because I'm a demon lord or anything. Herp de Derp),

The tactician who tells you all his plans BEFORE they've already succeeded, allowing you to thwart them all.

I can even deal with the obvious "twist" where Adria betrays you(The Player character warns Leah not to trust her right before you go to "rescue" Adria) and makes ultra prime evil Diablo, killing Leah.

Hell, I can even deal with TEEEEEEERRRRRR----OOOOOOOOOAAAAAAARRRRRRR.

I can deal with all of this minor stupidity...But making Tyrael a human...That stupidity I just can't deal with.
Edited by Blade#1638 on 8/29/2013 12:26 AM PDT
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Can somebody explain something for me... It's been bothering me for a long time.

How is Tyrael a "mortal" angel?

Angels are made out of light and sound, since when did they become flesh and blood by "ripping their wings out"? They'd still light and sound... it makes zero sense whatsoever.

Or Is he only in the guise of mortal form, like Inarius was? This makes more sense, but likely isn't the case since Tyrael continues to be completely useless, and constantly complains about "mortal things."

Honestly, Tyrael becoming human is a huge gaping plot hole that sucks everything else into its void of absolute stupidity.

Can you just make Tyrael an actual angel again so we can get past this stupidity and forget it ever happened?

That is an excellent question, and may very well be one they try to lore away in one of the newer books. I would say that things like that example you've provided, demonification of angels and the persistence of human ghosts and ghouls (demonification in a sense) are issues that really stand out in this expanded Diablo universe. If they simply explained it as some kind of tilting of the pendulum they'd be on to something (less the ghosts, they still don't make sense), but the fact that Nephalem are capable of becoming more powerful than any of these entities still leaves one rather confused. Maybe harmony between light and darkness is what allows the Nephalem "hybrids" the ability to grow in strength to such a degree? There are plenty of outs they could use, but I don't personally know that they have or haven't used any of them. =P
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I haven't been on the forums forever...

Just wanted to say I enjoyed the minimal dark plot in D2 very much. The amount of cheesiness in D3 really disappointed me: the best part of D3 is act 1 until the skeleton king... there was ambiance and the story of the skelly king fit with it.

Please no more scooby doo bad guys. No more long narratives about bad guy's plans.

I cry every time I can't hit escape a cut scene fast enough, or need to put my beer down to spacebar through what the characters are saying in game.

I like killing things. I like watching their heads come off. More decapitations less talk. The game is fun, focus on that, and use the plot to frame it, and that's all.
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delete
Edited by Elmilor#1933 on 8/29/2013 4:17 AM PDT
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08/28/2013 09:38 PMPosted by Battousai
And where's Natalya!!?
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"But hey who cares about the story, let's just retcon a few more things like we did with Aidan and his brother, oh and bring old names like we did with Skeleton King and The Butcher, let's do that to our new expansion and enforce even more nostalgia. That totally worked with D3, let's do this again."

Tyrael trying to burry the soulstone again is the metaphor for Blizzard trying to fix things with the expansion.

Also, inb4 Crusader is in fact a Horadrim.


Well said.

From D2 to D3 the plot has clearly been steered in a completely different direction. As a result it was apparant that whoever was in charge of the writing had only the cliff notes version of Diablo lore and didn't bother tying the new story to the old. That's usually a result of doing everything rushed and last minute. Which this game felt from day one. No surprise that the plot is painfully bad and does not jive with the other previous storylines. And lets not forget they made it more child like. And since they made the villans saturday morning cartoon style there is no need to really focus on making it dark or coherent.
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"But hey who cares about the story, let's just retcon a few more things like we did with Aidan and his brother, oh and bring old names like we did with Skeleton King and The Butcher, let's do that to our new expansion and enforce even more nostalgia. That totally worked with D3, let's do this again."
Also, inb4 Crusader is in fact a Horadrim.
If you're curious about recent Diablo lore and are legitimately interested in the answers to the questions you seek, I would highly recommend you check out some of our recent literary offerings, especially [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4876853"]The Order[/url], [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10399249"]Sword of Justice[/url], and the upcoming [url="https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10580514/diablo-iii-book-of-tyrael-pre-orders-now-available-8-15-2013"]Diablo III: Book of Tyrael[/url]. Many of your questions will be answered there, though there is certainly more to come. ;)


where's the dislike button when i need it?
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"But hey who cares about the story, let's just retcon a few more things like we did with Aidan and his brother, oh and bring old names like we did with Skeleton King and The Butcher, let's do that to our new expansion and enforce even more nostalgia. That totally worked with D3, let's do this again."
Also, inb4 Crusader is in fact a Horadrim.
If you're curious about recent Diablo lore and are legitimately interested in the answers to the questions you seek, I would highly recommend you check out some of our recent literary offerings, especially [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/4876853"]The Order[/url], [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10399249"]Sword of Justice[/url], and the upcoming [url="https://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/10580514/diablo-iii-book-of-tyrael-pre-orders-now-available-8-15-2013"]Diablo III: Book of Tyrael[/url]. Many of your questions will be answered there, though there is certainly more to come. ;)


Ugh don't tell me you just did that.... I'm embarrassed for you.
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