Diablo® III

my 3k dps monk vs 305k dps monk.

My other concern is the popularity of gearing like this ensures monks stay strictly in a support role, when they can outdps every class with Nirvana in group settings. Other classes need to realize that as well.

I don't think a monk can outdps wd even with nirvana.

Top cob WD can do mp10 ghom in 15-16 sec. Thats like 7.5-8.5m edps. Noone comes close.

That's an effective dps on a stationary dummy. Have a WD solo MP10 uber and time it or do MP10 VotA clear or Act4 Silver Spire clear.

I know CoB WD does massive dps, I played it for a long time. But it loses effectiveness when you have a lot of mobs that knockback your position.

People who say they faceroll MP10 is facerolling zombies, which is easy as eff.

And this topic is pretty pointless since theres just no way to really calculate the group dps with two different monk set up.

Conventional 300k dps monk works very well in group runs.

3k ZDS monk works very well in group runs.

Just run what you like to run. You are killing zombies over and over and over again. Jeez.
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All you say is true, i was only pointing out, that monks dont outdps every class. In fact, when we speak about vota runs, i'm not sure if a monk can do it as fast as a top tier cm wormhole wiz does (elites only and under 5 mins).

I agree this topic is pointless.
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All you say is true, i was only pointing out, that monks dont outdps every class. In fact, when we speak about vota runs, i'm not sure if a monk can do it as fast as a top tier cm wormhole wiz does (elites only and under 5 mins).

I agree this topic is pointless.

Yes, the topic is pointless, and we had the VotA challenge for fun.


Under 5mins has been achieved already by monks.

Here's my run.

Edited by KimSulki84#1308 on 10/29/2013 2:22 PM PDT
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How did this topic get on about out-dps'ing classes? O_o

I'm still adamant that a monk @ 90% of his dps (being 200k+) with a high level of group buffs is better than a monk with 5%dps and max group buffs, in a group situation.
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ive never liked support class spec . i would think that having 4 x 200k+ dps class would always be better then 3 x 200 and 1 class doing 10k
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So, with my dps gear on and paragon 100, I do unbuffed bit over400. With buff, in party mode with guiding light and pulling+ dashing, I'm buffed to about500. Does it mean that a 3000dmg monk will outperform my 500.000buffed monk? Seriously?
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10/29/2013 08:56 AMPosted by Notrius
Top cob WD can do mp10 ghom in 15-16 sec. Thats like 7.5-8.5m edps. Noone comes close.

Was this done on solo and with follower? Just curious.

I agree with Fitz concern on locking monk forever in a support rule ( hence getting this annoying common sense Pro tips from other classes telling us how to do the job).

Monks are capable to be competent on the DPS field and any other roles you may imagine with the right build and gear setup.

On this zdps vs everybuild thing for groups , we DEFINITVELY need to do some solid data gathering, Ive been thinking this for a while, we assemble some teams and design a proper testing method.

It can work on monks community favor if we can prove with more data that zdps offers a real benefit on killing time, or if its just a super convenience (because its quite comfortable regardless) that ends up with same or worse times than other group builds.
Edited by Colt#2370 on 11/1/2013 12:26 AM PDT
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10/28/2013 02:57 PMPosted by Fitz
Gear has gotten so good we can just do a min/max approach of 1x monk 3x WDs and slaughter MP10 runs.

Which, if true that "gear has gotten so good," would hold true that monk + any random 3 classes should "slaughter MP10 runs" also.

The point I am making is that I have yet to see anyone proving WDs outperform other classes in a group setting. I hear things like "omgz so much dps" and "extreme deeps yo" yet I personally know of a farming team that does not use a WD and is getting 250-300 mil exp per hour and have yet to hear of a WD group slaughtering that, and that is one random group of friends I have.

My argument is people simply "believe" that WDs are OP because of some gimmicky boss kills and the ease of build and play. It is a bit of a digression, but I am getting the same from zds. Anecdotes and "trust mes."

Technically, at the current gear level, it is true that monks and + 3 random classes = slaughter mp10, which is also the reason why almost everyone do xp run on mp10 nowadays. Wd owns because BBV and hex makes the game easier for everyone, ESP when running with upper-mid chars.

I think people prefer support monks because bell build is annoying and many mid monks like to use thunderclap with EF. This probably gives dps monk a bad name.

On a side note, I have to say my zds monk performs better than my 250k dps monk. I only use my dps items when playing with weak members.

Cold dmg + cs + 68% dps buff + cw + sledge fist = a party buff mini freeze wiz. Plus, ep and endless ds just shock n awe players unfamiliar with the build.

my concern is that new zds monks think tank= support. ( Looking at monks with storm shield or serenity and not running dual mantras),although I have to say tank monks is the easiest way to play mp10
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I'll be happy to put my name in for dps monk testing :)
I mean.. I carry most necessary buffs for a group, while maintaining a high DPS output.

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I've been running zdps for about a week and am absolutely loving watching mobs blow up. I don't used the same skills as the OP but that is the beauty, plenty of ways to go about it!
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As per int classes WD in general may do higher damage but the highest damage I've witnessed is an Archon with all bought rM gear 700k+ -- they melt crap.

12/31/2013 07:16 AMPosted by Fitz
BBV is the most overrated skill in the game right now. It has an up time of 14%. In other words, it is useless 86% of the time.

Very erroneous.. Where do you get 14% from? Besides BBV is perfect synergy for monk buff because it is a buff and monks debuff in general with exception of GL which I use in Nirvana and NOT in Lower dps spec.. In fact WD has both Debuff and Buff like we do. They are both great classes but the mechanics were very differently.

Having knowledge of all classes:

A monk is more necessary in my opinion for quick crypt runs than any other class

Before I justifiy my comment.. Barbs go do VSORC runs its better exp for you.

I am not even goin to consider the possibiltiy of DH being more useful so I'll leave them out of the argument as well.

So this leaves what Archon, CMass (SNS), CoB, PB, bears, and zdogs:

Wizards have no group buffs and only have 1 debuff in archon possible and 2ish in CM but mostly only Cold blooded --- Both builds can have very high dps but nothing has the direct damage as high as a wall of light drop-- now well 0 dps doesnt use wall of light and that also knocks back yes which gets me to my point LOL and why in my mind monk is definitive.

-Exploding Palm ftw

You may have thought I was gonna go Cyclone strike.. utility wise theres only a couple other spells in game that one could argue have the same kind of group benefit. Frost Nova would be another example.

for crypts.. it aint needed its so packed in there that if you are using EB with a decent at all damage group on a high damage monk the explosion is basically continuous and moves faster than anything can dash or sprint. I'm gonna put NokFero up for example of how to run crypts with eB.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/nokfero-1748/SenZura/23118767 uses same gear and DS + Exp Palm set up with RT and dang man my wd is top 250 america its hard to keep up sometimes.

0 dps does a great job with teammates the correct teammates. It works like a machine organizing and defiling-- Stun not completely necessary for crypts the one thing I dont like about the build is I completely feel like I'm wasting a slot just to proc a passive. But its hard to go Soothing breeze over Implosion.. Plus its nice to wear the damage pants.

Now WD is great and yes you have Hex even tho paranoia is basically an AoE version of it so I tend to roll Mass Conf. Yes we both have pulling mechanics.. WD is better at fields for sure -- Implosion is a close fast pull while pesti groups and is a great prep pull. Now if we look past the killing itself aspect into preping WD is just as important because they and you can argue all you want but they just are better at prepping -- A lot quicker and more precise. The sole arguments against WD is that they are LAG which is a result of being well basically too good at pulling and that they leave straglers-- which is true but if you know what youre doing can be minimized easily-- try using spider queen.

I Find crypts with my monk or barb
I Prep Crypts, Fields, or WH with my WD -- possibly followed by or with a monk
But when I kill crypts if there is no monk in party I always go monk.
No monk no wd -- you go monk.

The one thing on monk though that is rough is when doing fields they tend to die in lag more because its not as constant damage.. which is part of the reason ZDPS works so well in it.

I would say that my monk wiz and wd's are all on par with each other and exceptional taking into account that they werent purchased.
Edited by Darth#1885 on 12/31/2013 10:35 AM PST
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Well said Fitz.
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You obviously took into account the fact that 99% of WD's use Grave Injustice which takes a second of per kill as well.. I like that.
slightly correct with PTR but live crypts tends to have a lot of killing goin on.

You can wipe a BBV CD before its over with spell in crypts.. but id say its down maybe half the time or less.

Most overrated spell in game is probably Archon - tough for elites, unusable in ubers, not really all that fun but the thing that makes it overrated is its damage versus a Shocks and Shards.
Edited by Darth#1885 on 12/31/2013 1:13 PM PST
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I love the ZDS build. The MoH and Guiding light work really well together and I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to benefit from more than 1 Mantra at a time. The party buffs from ZDS right now are amazing.
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@Fitz: I think why people see zdps as being so good is because it allows a monk to max stack attack speed, allowing both retarded spirit regen and the response time of their character when pressing any skills (no swing time latency for any spells). The only real way to facilitate this is to use all the IAS gear possible which ends up nerving your damage, especially when using sledge (1.4 speed and .17 attacks) and bloodsaber (1.4 speed and .17 attacks). The stun is like icing on the cake that holds mobs into the cyclones.

With that said, zdps is so good because you can mass spam buffs, cyclone strike and sometimes EP without missing a beat, which is hard for a normal monk to do wearing normal gear. If you could get that high of IAS with normal gear the build would be called something else and it would be the best monk build in the game pretty much.

A good group with zdps and a good group with a good monk probably won't see much difference in time spent playing, but most likely the run will be faster with a zdps monk because it's just so damn efficient. I don't have to go running all over creation to attack isolated or low hp mobs; they just get dragged in.

Where zdps has failed to shine is when your groups dps sucks--then the monk just ends up cycloning a thousand times while the group whittles down the mobs whereas a 250-300k dos monk could carry the whole group.

It's also a bit about play style. Nirvana, cookie, TR, zdps are all so different in how they operate within groups. Some people find it more enjoyable to play zdps, and if they're good at it and I can't really tell then I'm good to go. I played in a group with Vox once and another monk and I didn't find out the other monk was also zdps until the end of the run. It was me, a COB doc, a CM wiz and 2 zdps monks doing crypt/FOM and we rooollled through that run so fast that I felt exhausted at the end.

tl;dr: ZDPS is only bad if the person playing it is bad, just like any other spec in the game. The only caveat is that the worse your group is (skill/dps) the worse ZDPS looks.

@BBV: Darth is right. I've had BBV come off cool down from grave injustice while my current bbv is still out. If it weren't for the fact that trash died so fast in crypts I'd drop it more often. As it stands in one crypt run I can drop it on every elite if they aren't prepped or super close to another and every horde pack over ~70 mobs. It's also not that overrated because what else am I going to use? Mass confusion is alright, but it's not that much better and sometimes sends mobs running.
Edited by Amiar#1992 on 1/1/2014 6:52 PM PST
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01/01/2014 06:49 PMPosted by Amiar
Where zdps has failed to shine is when your groups dps sucks--then the monk just ends up cycloning a thousand times while the group whittles down the mobs whereas a 250-300k dos monk could carry the whole group.

^ and props on the skill choice for ZdPS. Generally when group DPS is low I'll roll nirvana but some of the fastest killing I've seen in crypts is straight ZDPS rip off just with DPS + again EP:EB. I roll something very similar with a higher dps group just with DPS- I would say that zDPS might be more favorable though in some instances such as when people prep FoM poorly like leaving mobs outside the crypt enterance. SN: Drowned temple/Bridge or learn how to space out. The survivability is unquestionably better in zDPS and almost always you will have a 5-10 second straight red line when I prep FoM so its useful to not loose exp by death.

oh and BBV SD - 30% damage and 20% Attack speed for 20 seconds.. That's like Insanity for the entire group.
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