Diablo® III

The meteor rises...

Beautiful!

I bow to my meteor Master...
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Ha, it's absolutely funny to see a wizard use a freaking meteor falling from the sky to open a single wooden door. That makes sense. :)
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try opening doors with tornado - sometimes it's just bloody impossible and you look like a tw-at
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08/30/2013 05:09 AMPosted by Emperor
EDIT: For those might be curious on the DPS output of Emperor's Raining Meteor, Emperor did a Ghom test and was running a 8.15x multiplier. :) That was a 32s kill on MP6 Ghom. Not too shabby! Now that's including all the awesome elite damage (38.09%) and demon damage (15%) that Emperor was now running, so it's a bit biased. But it definitely shows how stacking elite damage can result in a pretty damaging setup that doesn't require spamming Explosive Blast+Shards+Shocking Aspect. Without the elite damage and demon damage, the build runs about a 5.5x DPS multiplier. That's pretty good in my book for a kiting build! :)


tekk i just did a test, if i swap molten impact for meteor shower, i could hit 13x multiplier.... but how do u calculate it so that its fair without the elite damage and demon dmg %
So how it works is this: DPS Multiplier = Ghom's Life / (Kill Time for Ghom x Referenced DPS). Now your referenced DPS can be anything. It can be your listed paper DPS, or you can scale your DPS by your elite and demon bonuses. The formula should be:
  • Scaled DPS = [Paper DPS] x [1+Elite Damage Bonus] x [1+Demon Damage Bonus]
  • Elite Damage Bonus = 1 - (1 - [Elite Damage Bonus #1]/100) x (1 - [Elite Damage Bonus #2]/100) x ... (1 - [Elite Damage Bonus #n]/100)
  • Demon Damage Bonus = 1 - (1 - [Demon Damage Bonus #1]/100) x (1 -[Demon Damage Bonus #2]/100) x ... (1 - [Demon Damage Bonus #n]/100)
  • So if we use your current setup as an example, you're scaled DPS should be: Scaled DPS = (173,936.58 DPS) x (1.3677) x (1.15) = 273,577.02 .

    P.S. If you want to know how to calculate anything involving your DPS, Nubtro's post on the subject is quite informative: http://www.diablofans.com/topic/65055-diablo3-dps-ehp-calculator-comparison-tool/#entry1081786 .
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    @Emperor: So Meteor Shower is a bit tricky to consider fairly. People don't tend to like using it on Ghom, since in practice it's an over-representation of the DPS you'd do against a single elite. This is because most bosses are physically larger than your standard elites, so you should see more Meteor Shower hits.

    When I tested Meteor Shower on a single zombie, I saw an average of 2.5 hits per cast. That means Shower should effectively be "read" as 260% Weapon Damage against a small target (2.5x104% Weapon Damage = 260% Weapon Damage). That also means the effective proc rate is 0.125 if you scale up the actual proc rate of 0.05 by 2.5x. Quite tantalizing that Shower basically behaves like the base Meteor skill (no runes), except for the Meteor DoT lasting 2s instead of the standard 3s! :)

    However, my above calculations are thrown out the window when you use Shower on a large enemy, since we do expect more hits on average. This is why Meteor Shower works well for farming (lots targets), and then for big bosses too. But try getting that multiplier against a key warden, Kulle, or Madgha. I'd wager you'd find a much smaller DPS multiplier.
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    @TekkZero - always insightful as usual ! Thanks man !!! i didn't know meteor showers had dot, i just thought they only had their initial impact, well it's hard to tell with so many numbers popping up -_-""
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    ...but how do u calculate it so that its fair without the elite damage and demon dmg %...
    ...you're scaled DPS should be: Scaled DPS = (173,936.58 DPS) x (1.3677) x (1.15) = 273,577.02 ..


    You can also use D3up which shows damage versus elites and demons. With his current setup his unbuffed damage versus elite + demons is 269,500.78.

    Don't know why it's different from Tekk's result, maybe his includes follower.
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    08/30/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Emperor
    @TekkZero - always insightful as usual ! Thanks man !!! i didn't know meteor showers had dot, i just thought they only had their initial impact, well it's hard to tell with so many numbers popping up -_-""
    Yup, Meteor Shower has a 2s DoT, while all other Meteor runes have a 3s DoT. It's not in the spell description, which is odd, but that's what it is. :lol

    08/30/2013 09:28 PMPosted by JackStraw
    ...you're scaled DPS should be: Scaled DPS = (173,936.58 DPS) x (1.3677) x (1.15) = 273,577.02 ..


    You can also use D3up which shows damage versus elites and demons. With his current setup his unbuffed damage versus elite + demons is 269,500.78.

    Don't know why it's different from Tekk's result, maybe his includes follower.
    I noticed that too with demon damage, and that's why I didn't recommend D3up.com for the calculation. :lol For some reason D3up.com seems to incorrectly calculate the DPS for demons (although it does calculate it correctly for the elite damage). My view is that I'd trust Nubtro more than D3up.com, since his work on D3's mechanics have simply been stellar. Though if someone understands what's up with the calculation at D3up.com, I'm all ears!
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    i always thought the elite bonus and demon dmg% is calculated after your dmg mod stuff like crit dmg, spell dmg %, time warp, that was why i thought soj could provide such a massive damage boost because its effect take place after all the damage mods and multipliers. are u certain that isn't the case?
    Edited by Emperor#6740 on 8/31/2013 8:19 AM PDT
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    08/31/2013 08:14 AMPosted by Emperor
    i always thought the elite bonus and demon dmg% is calculated after your dmg mod stuff like crit dmg, spell dmg %, time warp, that was why i thought soj could provide such a massive damage boost because its effect take place after all the damage mods and multipliers. are u certain that isn't the case?
    That's not what I'm saying. :lol You're quite correct that both elite damage and demon damage are multiplicative with other damage bonuses. That's why the D3up.com calculation is so troubling. Just check out Nubtro's damage formula in the link I provided above (post #24). I just used an abbreviated form of that equation for scaling your damage up. :)
    Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 8/31/2013 8:32 AM PDT
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    well.......................... :D im glad its complicative to calculate my true dps LOL :P
    Edited by Emperor#6740 on 8/31/2013 8:34 AM PDT
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    08/31/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Emperor
    well.......................... :D im glad its complicative to calculate my true dps LOL :P
    Well it should be correct on D3up.com, and that's what is so troubling about it. Elite damage behaves correctly lol, but the math doesn't work out for demons. But you can use the website for damage against elites, but you'll be missing out on the demon damage. :)
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    Nice job! Cool to see some other people using Meteor builds!
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    On a different note, since ya'll are probably slightly more familiar with skill, mechanics and possible proc co-efficients.

    In groups I'm running the proposed setup from the video; Molten Impact (with Conflag) and Bubble with 20% damage increase) alongside of Dia Skin AP reduc and Familiar AP regen.

    Now, Magic Weapon has Conduit (Chance to gain AP on attack) - is this a valid replacement for Familiar's +2AP regen? 'Chance to restore 1 AP on Attack' sounds rather lame, if it is 'Chance to restore 1AP on hit' however it's probably the better AP generator and provides a higher damage output, although it'll probably be less effective on single targets.

    I'm at work so I don't have the time to tinker around with it.

    Since I'm running XP gear (Hellfire + Leoric) there's no reduc gear except for the OH, but I've got 30 APoC covered in case it may be of interest.
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    Yes, Arcanot and Magic Weapon: Conduit end up being very similar for most wizards. Arcanot tends to be better for meteor wizards with slower attack speed, while Conduit tends to perform better at faster attack speeds. You can roughly think of Conduit as being APoC with it's amount equal to: 1/(Crit Chance). The more crit chance you have, the less effective yield from Conduit. So if you have 50%cc, then you'd effectively get 2APoC from Conduit.
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    09/23/2013 03:35 AMPosted by TekkZero
    Yes, Arcanot and Magic Weapon: Conduit end up being very similar for most wizards. Arcanot tends to be better for meteor wizards with slower attack speed, while Conduit tends to perform better at faster attack speeds. You can roughly think of Conduit as being APoC with it's amount equal to: 1/(Crit Chance). The more crit chance you have, the less effective yield from Conduit. So if you have 50%cc, then you'd effectively get 2APoC from Conduit.


    What does 'slower attack speed' amount to, exactly? I'm probably more than falling within that area as my only contributor are my Lacunis and my Witching Hour - so only totaling in 16%. Needless to say that this is the low(er) end of the spectrum - at least when looking at CM/WW Builds with their Chantondo setups.

    Any theoretical breakpoint in mind?

    I'll do a testrun regardless and see how it works out for me - the 10% damage increase is certainly more welcome than the ST thingy the familiar shoots, which additionally, as far as my knowledge is concerned, can't trigger anything (LoH, LS, APoC etc.).
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    So when I meant attack speed, I was actually alluding to two things. One is that wizards with faster attack speed will tend to favor spells that are centered around insta-cooldowns (ie Diamond Shards and Explosive Blast). From a damage perspective, there’s larger returns to be had if you’re buffing the damage of multiple spells per second.

    The second is that wizards with higher attack speed also stretch the AP returns of Arcanot across multiple casting actions, so Arcanot becomes less potent in its AP returns. This is where Conduit shines. Often you can get less AP back with Conduit for a single, but it’s contribution rises as it’s returns are based on number of targets and procs per spells cast (ie Meteor, Explosive Blast, Diamond Shards, etc). So the value of Conduit precisely depends on what array of spells you’re running, and how many enemies are around. Thus, there’s no “breakpoint” per sey.

    But we could predict for a given setup, which is best for 1-4 targets. I have a Meteor simulator written in MATLAB that roughly predicts AP costs for Meteor spamming. For you specifically, my model predicts Arcanot provides a bit better AP returns. And that’s consistent Emperor's preference for Arcanot. And like you, he also typically runs with slower attack speed.

    Out of curiosity what is the minimum number of targets you can reliably spam Meteor? I have the sense that you can probably reliably spam in a crowd of 3-4 targets, but 1-2 is probably getting hairier. Your setup is actually very interesting to me, since you’re borderline in terms of your AP costs being just slightly lower than your AP returns. My model predicts the following:
  • With Conduit: Net AP returns per second on Average = +1.05 AP (one target), +4.1 (two targets), +7.15 (three targets), +10.2 (four targets)
  • With Arcanot: Net AP returns per second on Average = +2.85 AP (one target), +5.7 (two targets), +8.55 (three targets), +11.4 (four targets)
  • Is this is in the ballpark of your experience?
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    Resurrecting this thread for 2.0 changes:

    Dolynick said somewhere that all of Meteor's co-efficients were halved to what they pre 2.0 were. This means less return through APoC / LoH / LL and what not. I'm not familiar with the legacy proc-rates, but I believe them to have been roughly 12.5% for molten and thus around ~6% after 2.0.

    Meteor's cost was reduced to 40 per cast, which is a welcomed change. Presumably, including the APoC changes to non legacy gear a pure meteor build is to likely vanish down the road - possibly even one way or the other given how much raw stats one loses by 70 when sticking to legacy gear (Helmet, Off-Hand, Rings, Amulet) for APoC and possible cost reduction.

    Initially I arrived in 2.0 with a total of 30 APoC and -10 Meteor reduc, leaving me at 30AP/Cast per Meteor. With the reduced proc chances I've quickly noticed my DPS to take a dive on smaller enemy groups given that I couldn't nuke them into oblivion in mere seconds.

    Fortunately I was capable to get my hands on all meteor reduc available pre 2.0. This means I'm running a total of 19(!) Meteor Reduction now, leaving Meteor at an effective cost per cast of 21AP. This is without Paragon resource reduction or general resource reduction.

    With Storm Armor: Power Of The Storm it gets further reduced to 18AP / cast and with Diamond Skin: Prism even further to 9(!) AP / Meteor. I can practically spam Meteor on single targets for over a good minute or so before running out of AP.

    The heavy reduction allowed me to ditch my legacy APoC wand for a random newly found legendary wand with plenty of additional DPS - My legacy wand may still be the better option overall, but it was to test and see if I could take a 10 APoC hit. It turned out I could. So 20 legacy APoC does mighty fine for 18 to 21 AP meteors.

    Now to the actual game changers within Emperor's original build:

    The new AoE nuker / dmg increaser build:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PgXTjQ!XWZ!bbZZYY

    Since conflagration was changed to 6% crit its original 10% damage increase from all sources was moved to cold blooded instead, which makes it the go to skill in conflag's stead. Additionally Molten Impact is the only remaining fire Meteor rune (well, and meteor shower, I guess) - that isn't too bad, given that it's no longer spammable anyway.

    Thus, compared to the original build, I propose to change the meteor to ice (comet) and swap conflag for cold blooded. With CM out of the picture as a passive I personally choose the new blur over dominance for survivability - if your ehp / toughness is good enough feel free to take whatever you desire in its place.

    Tough to maintain AP on meaty single targets.

    AoE Nuker / Crowd Controller / disabler:
    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#PgXTjQ!XbZ!abZZYY

    I propose to run around 50% crit chance for this to function properly, as you'll want your initial impact to crit. This can practically keeps crowds in one place until they're dead. The bubble's slow helps with that. Since there's no cold damage to be had here cold blooded becomes obsolete and can be dropped for evocation / glass cannon / paralysis.

    Evocation allows you to use Diamond Skin, Time Warp and Teleport more frequently, plenty of them may be life savers in the new game flow.

    Paralysis makes this Meteor even more ludicrous. If the initial impact doesn't crit, it may paralyzes the enemy. If it does crit and roots them, it may still paralyzes them and if it does neither, its DoT ticks may paralyzes enemies. I love this particularly against quick agile mobs, just as the frog leaper and the like.

    Glass Cannon, well, speaks for itself.

    This rune actually makes single target spam even quite doable and sustainable.

    Other thoughts:

    If you don't need Storm Armor: Power Of The Storm consider Ice Armor: Crystallize or Ice Reflect for additional survivability / crowd control.

    These builds are highly niche and gear dependent (and probably no brainers on top of it ;D) - gear that no longer drops. Thus it's make it or break it. Even if you get your hands on all pieces, this build may not be sustainable or even worthwhile at 70 - but at least you'll have fond memories of the awesomeness this build was once upon a time ;)

    Sheet-wise I'm a complete gimp in terms of DPS and my actual DPS output it probably 4 to 6 times than on paper. Needless to say that reduc items and legacy APoC items will in no way compete with 70's in terms of stats. So, looking at blocked gear slots (Helm, Off-Hand, 2x Ring, Amulet) you lose effectively 5 slots to upgrade down the road just to sustain the fun, assuming it remains viable in the first place.

    Although it may be theoretically possible to maybe drop an additional APoC item for a post 2.0 APoC item and see how it fares in terms of DPS gain over that of resource cost. Ideally would be the head slot, for it's the only piece in this setup not providing any resource reduction to meteor.

    If monster affixes wouldn't deal any damage (ice bombs, jail, vortex) I could easily faceroll T6 - The damage is borderline fine and trash will not ever touch me. Damn those elite packs. Unfortunately my survivability is pretty !@#$ty right now as I've lost my LL (which will becomes obsolete anyway) and only have very little LoH currently.

    09/23/2013 09:27 AMPosted by TekkZero
    Out of curiosity what is the minimum number of targets you can reliably spam Meteor? I have the sense that you can probably reliably spam in a crowd of 3-4 targets, but 1-2 is probably getting hairier. Your setup is actually very interesting to me, since you’re borderline in terms of your AP costs being just slightly lower than your AP returns. My model predicts the following:
  • With Conduit: Net AP returns per second on Average = +1.05 AP (one target), +4.1 (two targets), +7.15 (three targets), +10.2 (four targets)
  • With Arcanot: Net AP returns per second on Average = +2.85 AP (one target), +5.7 (two targets), +8.55 (three targets), +11.4 (four targets)
  • Is this is in the ballpark of your experience?


    Sorry for the late response, I'm not frequenting the US boards all too often.

    Yes, back then I could keep Molten Impact up almost endlessly as long as I had 3-4 targets and you're scarily accurate with your sense ;)
    Edited by Erbsenbrei#2897 on 2/28/2014 4:58 AM PST
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