Diablo® III

Math vs. Feeling - New Wizards

I was having a very interesting conversation with the ever lovely Jenpeezey this weekend. I've had portions of this conversation with Dolynick, Boozor, Hub, Amos, Jaetch, and others..but Peezey and I went through the whole thing and I wanted to share it with you.

There are times in D3 when the math prevails when making a decision. There's just no denying it. Sometimes, 1+1 simply equals 2, no matter how badly you want it to equal 3.

Other times, it doesn't work like that and I'm the first one to stand by it. There are factors that math can't compensate or justify enough for me:

Circumstance
Fun factor
Dislike
Like

When any one of my mathamwizards offers you a mathematical explanation for something, they're not trying to tell you that "this is the only way" or "your choice is dumb". They are simply telling you the cold hard numbers that they have tirelessly and rigorously discussed, calculated, and cross referenced with one another. Don't take their words lightly. If Loroese tells you that X causes Y, he's not doing it to be a meanie. He's doing it because he's mathematically proficient and he knows.

Same goes for Void, Changbooster, EmperorMao, TekkZero, and Dolynick. These guys KNOW their stuff.

IF, after hearing their reasoning - which is 90% of the time very, very sound reasoning, you STILL want to do something else? Sure, go right ahead - but don't think that because you've made that decision, you're right and they're wrong - that doesn't gel.

There IS a flip side to this.

There is psychology, and sociology, to Diablo 3. And those fantastic gentlemen I just mentioned oftentimes leave that out when they're answering you - but it doesn't mean they don't have it in them. They do. I know all of these cats for a while now, and they're totally normal until they go into Doc Brown/A Beautiful Mind mode...except for Loroese, that dude is NOT human. I'm serious.

Here's an example of Psychology in D3 - two rings for sale on AH

Ring 1: Ring 2:
90 int. +17 min damage
50 vit. 30 vit
8% ias. 9% ias
32% CD. 25%CD
5.5CC. 6.0 CC

Ring #1 will do more DPS and have more mit/ehp than ring #2. But ring #2 may very well sell for more gold than ring 1. Why? Because of it's 6/9 stats..simply put. And that's got nothing to do with math. That's people.

Keep your eyes open for both opportunities AND your own shortcomings when making gearing/posting decisions. There's more to this forum/community than cold hard number or your own gut instincts.

/rant
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Ring 2 is worth more to me. The first ring breaks my build--its all about math.
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This is a pretty good point. There is no harm in sacrificing a little "efficiency" for a little more fun. This is a game/hobby after all... You shouldn't be afraid to play it in a way that brings you enjoyment. Sometimes I think we do focus a bit too much on what is the "the best" in some of the discussions in this forum and the posts that lean towards the "but this is more fun" get ignored a bit.

Afterall, I wouldn't be specing and running Meteor on my wiz main if I just wanted to be the most efficient monster killing machine all the time. The same goes for all the time I've spent with Disintegrate, Blizzard and Electrocute. All skills that are fun, if not ideal.

-dolynick
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Sometimes I plan out my errands according to my map app's most efficient route, and it's all very business-like. But the outings I enjoy the most have no destination, no purpose -- oh, look, here's a hidden hiking trail. I don't even have hiking boots on.
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09/02/2013 11:44 AMPosted by jenpeezey
Sometimes I plan out my errands according to my map app's most efficient route, and it's all very business-like. But the outings I enjoy the most have no destination, no purpose -- oh, look, here's a hidden hiking trail. I don't even have hiking boots on.


Deep. But yup, that's a nice TL:DR synopsis of my rant.
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I agree with your post completely. The main thing that gets me is when people post claims that we can show to be untrue mathematically, then continue to refuse to even consider the math behind our statements.

At the end of the day, it's your play time and your character. You can do with it what you want, and play how you like. It's also fine to share builds that you find to be fun or interesting or even MP10 viable. Just don't go around saying your build is better than SNS or Archon without some hard proof. Also don't go saying that your gearing is the best way to do something when there's numerous posts by people who have put a lot of time and effort into proving otherwise, unless you have some evidence to back up your claim.

Basically, as long as people don't start claiming opinion as fact, I'm fine with just about anything said around here. Posing a theory and asking for opinions is perfectly fine also.
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Basically, as long as people don't start claiming opinion as fact, I'm fine with just about anything said around here. Posing a theory and asking for opinions is perfectly fine also.


In my opinion Hydra should never leave your skill bar. Its just way too much fun
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Recently i made the switch to zuni boots - i hate them, but mathematically they are sound and even though i tried many a time to run the nat 3 piece they were showing a greater benefit in my dps and game play and allowing me to be more efficient in parties
The above is a classic case of the numbers don't lie.

however for those of you that know me will know that i actually play more by feel and clairvoyance then anything else what this means is that i'll often be popping skills at funny times in an effort to predict a situation... usually failing lol. Now another case of this feel is my blackthorns ammy, i'ts useless essentially, doesn't get me to the break point, i already have over 1000loh without it and i can get better dps and mit from my other ammy.

but i kid you not, my sns feels better with the blackthorns - it really does, it might not get me to break point but it does help in the feel of my game, my sns runs smoother maybe its' the tiny extra crit chance maybe the extra vit from teh combo i dunno. I haven't noticed any difference in my sustain with it on either - its' all about the same in game, so mathematically i'm getting a sustain bonus, but i'm not feeling it happen in game enough to care.

overall i prefer to drop almost 30kdps just to run the blackthorns ammy because my game feels better and i run smoother in my opinion when i play. Essentially this is my feel option winning out over the math option.

Alot of the game relys on you testing things out for yourself - there are pathways you can choose to go but finding your sweet spot is somethign you will have to do - marry the math with the feeling and win for your build.
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Ring 1: Ring 2:
90 int. +17 min damage
50 vit. 30 vit
8% ias. 9% ias
32% CD. 25%CD
5.5CC. 6.0 CC

Ring #1 will do more DPS and have more mit/ehp than ring #2. But ring #2 may very well sell for more gold than ring 1. Why? Because of it's 6/9 stats..simply put. And that's got nothing to do with math. That's people.


CM math needs to consider breakpoints for the 1%IAS and EDPS from +0.5cc

alot of weapons 1.78/1.79 1.54/1.55 are built on perfect 9s

Ring #1 will do more DPS 'might not be' completely true
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Ring 1: Ring 2:
90 int. +17 min damage
50 vit. 30 vit
8% ias. 9% ias
32% CD. 25%CD
5.5CC. 6.0 CC

Ring #1 will do more DPS and have more mit/ehp than ring #2. But ring #2 may very well sell for more gold than ring 1. Why? Because of it's 6/9 stats..simply put. And that's got nothing to do with math. That's people.


CM math needs to consider breakpoints for the 1%IAS and EDPS from +0.5cc

alot of weapons 1.78/1.79 1.54/1.55 are built on perfect 9s

Ring #1 will do more DPS 'might not be' completely true

bwahahahaha mathawizard still at it.

After running the ultra effective CM/WW, you do get a bit bored. You start to make DPS allowances for more fun. You start to play public games more instead of solo where you are probably more efficient than a group with no synergy, two undergeared players and a guy who's forever AFKing.

Running everything logically and mathematically is pretty good, but things fun are also big factors. Hell, retarded reasons like emotional attachment to certain pieces of gear stop you from selling gear you would otherwise vendor.

Nice write up, Melkor!
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I'm kind of a "feel" guy but also enjoy number crunching or, better yet, letting d3up crunch them for me.

SNS:

-Get your CC, IAS, EHP, mit, sustain, and APoC all hammered out BEFORE you chase the DPS dragon.

-Don't use macros on goblins (or be an O.G. like me and don't macro at all).

Archon:

-LS weapon is your new bff.

-Seriously, just try 10 APoC and switching LL for WW, ya never know, ya might like it.

General:

-Impactful blades is underrated.

-I love explosive bolts and mocking demise but they are UP (underpowered).

-Diablo 3 is a really fun game and if you enjoy it, play whatever wonky build you want. So what if you have to drop down a couple MPs.

-Don't let anyone call you a frostitute. All monks do is give palm jobs. Now I know why they are so angry. Barb is easy mode. WD is stupid OP eDPS for like no money. I like DHs and feel their pain so won't diss them. They can be good if you spend like 14-day Transatlantic cruise money on them but w/e that's dumb. Anyways, I'm just kidding around. I'm gonna be a console concubine tomorrow. Self found 10k DPS wiz FTW!
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Melkor - why does your post not rhyme?
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I prefer feeling myself over math as well.
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Math > All =)
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who cares... math is only valid until blizz nerfs the skills. just have fun playing whatever you are playing.
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Oohhhh, Comrade..you showed me..lol...ill go ahead and delete the thread I guess.

Problem is Comrade...not everyone cares about the math. And to insist to them or me that because you are really good at pressing the divide button on a calculator, I should do this or that doesn't mean anything to some people. Besides, if ring A contains more stats yet forces them to add another ias piece because of it, the only literal criticism you can "mathematically" make is that the ias roll is a waste instead of int or ave dam or blah blah blah.

You'd be mathematically correct and yet realistically/practically too utopian - too rigid.

By the way, Booster, very funny write up. Are we "losing you" to console?
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09/02/2013 07:42 PMPosted by Melkor
the only literal criticism you can "mathematically" make is that the ias roll is a waste instead of int or ave dam or blah blah blah.


don't forget the 0.5cc and its effect on EDPS too =)

Most of the IAS dividers are simple multiples of 9 with 1 or 2 8s etc allowance.

When choosing the 'allowance' if applicable i.e. the 8 is where you consider 'which 8 gives more stats'

Most common occurrences of 'Give more stats' are the allowances the piece where a natural 8-9 is rolled

Mempo, WH, Chant Force etc etc.

Ring has a chance too, but generally lower chance.
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/facepalm Comrade. Your children must be tiny little integers with irrational thoughts.

I'd start to refer you to as the terminator but ill hold off because:

A) that's Loroese
B) you'd like it.
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Loroese:
I agree with your post completely. The main thing that gets me is when people post claims that we can show to be untrue mathematically, then continue to refuse to even consider the math behind our statements.

At the end of the day, it's your play time and your character. You can do with it what you want, and play how you like. It's also fine to share builds that you find to be fun or interesting or even MP10 viable. Just don't go around saying your build is better than SNS or Archon without some hard proof. Also don't go saying that your gearing is the best way to do something when there's numerous posts by people who have put a lot of time and effort into proving otherwise, unless you have some evidence to back up your claim.

Basically, as long as people don't start claiming opinion as fact, I'm fine with just about anything said around here. Posing a theory and asking for opinions is perfectly fine also.
I agree with this, but I also find the flip side to be true. I see a LOT of people on this forum innappropriately using the "math," such as the simulators, as "proof" of their opinions. A lot of the time, the models can only mathematically predict certain portions of the mechanics, and we still have some very glaring gaps in our understanding of the game mechanics. Thus, I think it's also important not to get carried away with the math, and treating something as "fact" in cases where our knowledge is still incomplete. Models are still useful predictors, but they should be just that... useful predictors and not proof. I'm very leery of people using models, particularly Steve's simulator (http://d3cmww.com/), as proof that certain setups are "better." Models should never be taken as primary proof, rather they are good supporting evidence and guides to make novel predictions (again not "proof"). :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 9/2/2013 8:14 PM PDT
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I studied with a guy who was a math nut. It was an IT degree but he spent more time playing with variables than getting a functional program running. His name was Frank Jones, were we later referred to as "Computer Jones".

CC now = Computer Comrade.

Gotta hand it to Loroese and Comrade though.. I'd be one of those idiots who stack IAS not realising I have 2.729APS rather than 2.73APS.. at least they gave us clear goals. Of course, feeling broken as hell and running into an MP level you've never set foot in and absolutely dominating, you have heaps of fun (a few months for me)... in that case maths = fun..?
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