Diablo® III

All DPS is not equal

Racist DPS. Old topic, Doly tried to explain it to me and he does a great job of dumbing things down for a fool like me but...i STILL don't get it...at ALL. And that's not a testament to Doly's teaching abilities...that just shows you how close my mental development is to that of a stone sitting next to a small pond.

So check it.

Two players, each have 250,000 DPS.

A) One player reached that DPS with 60% Crit Chance.

B) Second Player reached that DPS with 55% Crit Chance.

I AM AsSuMiNG that player A will do more eDPS than player B. All other things being equal, and I do mean all other things (ave dam numbers, Crit Damage, Intel), and in the same build, meaning SnS...is that true?

IF it is true, then wouldn't it be safe to say that the largest multiplier contributor to SnS is crit chance?

And if THAT is true...ok, I don't really have a follow up to that one.

Straighten your boy out.
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^

This was determined already back in December ....

We initially thought it was ping dependent but figured CC% was the overwhelming contributor.
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Aren't you retired?

Can I get an active player to respond please?

Jk jk..yeah, I remember the discussion. Ok, well then I guess it's then better for me to shave some DPS and bolster crit chance. Word.
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CC may be the overwhelming contributor, but I can tell you, and its more than a "feeling", I would take 45 ping over another 5 CC any day. That insane week where I was running in the seventies was so awesome, and it really ruined me running SNS when I am at my normal 120-150 ping.

Sorry I didn't help you out much Melkor, but I would love a big fat(ty) fiber optic line straight to my house from Blizzard so I could have 5 ping.
Edited by Hub#1983 on 9/10/2013 1:28 PM PDT
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Feels like retirement.

But you never know no one might buy my gear and I'll just be stuck with it.

Still can troll your candy aS.S :)

When are you coming to Van again ?
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Ok so I might be wrong but here is what I think. Player A and Player B have the same dps, one has 60%cc and other 55%cc.

EDPS-A > EDPS-B

But they CANT have other stats equal, player B need to have more CD or Intel or Avg, or a little bit of each. You get it?
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CC may be the overwhelming contributor, but I can tell you, and its more than a "feeling", I would take 45 ping over another 5 CC any day. That insane week where I was running in the seventies was so awesome, and it really ruined me running SNS when I am at my normal 120-150 ping.

Sorry I didn't help you out much Melkor, but I would love a big fat(ty) fiber optic line straight to my house from Blizzard so I could have 5 ping.


Hub, you always make me laugh. Always. And I wouldn't say that you're incorrect, or saying something irrelevant when you mention ping. But I would simply state that if ping is an issue - crit chance would also bolster. I typically run between 90 and 115 ping...sometimes...things just don't make sense to me. Certain mobs chew through my mit...and that's saying something if GC isn't on. I just don't get it.

Still can troll your candy aS.S :)

When are you coming to Van again ?


I'm sorry Booz, I still don't know :( But you'll be the first one I tell so I can sneak on your computer and set up RMAH for 1.00 for your gear while elaborately colluding with JellzRoc back east to time the buy out so we can then turn around and sell your gear and get GG houses in New York. I'm thinking...downtown apartment in NYC, actually...
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Two players, each have 250,000 DPS.

A) One player reached that DPS with 60% Crit Chance.

B) Second Player reached that DPS with 55% Crit Chance.

I AM AsSuMiNG that player A will do more eDPS than player B. All other things being equal, and I do mean all other things (ave dam numbers, Crit Damage, Intel), and in the same build, meaning SnS...is that true?


Their dps could not both be 250k if all of their stats were equal save for crit chance. The dps contribution of that CC would need to be made up for with a loss in intellect to have the effect you're looking for.

The answer to your question would be that they will likely end up being nearly identical in eDPS with a slight edge for the one with higher CC because he will get a few more SA procs.

Other than shocking aspect, both players will likely have their ability come off cooldown faster than their internet connection will let them cast, and will likely have more arcane power than they can spend.

The single largest determining factor (larger than the difference in CC) in who will do more dps is who has the lowest ping. (assuming both computers can run a constant 60fps)
Edited by BDF#1838 on 9/10/2013 2:22 PM PDT
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Ok so I might be wrong but here is what I think. Player A and Player B have the same dps, one has 60%cc and other 55%cc.

EDPS-A > EDPS-B

But they CANT have other stats equal, player B need to have more CD or Intel or Avg, or a little bit of each. You get it?


Doh!! Of course, you're right. I just didn't want to offer any particular values for CD and Ave Dam or Int because I didn't want people to come in and be like, "weelllllll, this guy has more CD sooo blah blah blah"
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09/10/2013 01:18 PMPosted by Melkor
Straighten your boy out.


Can I get in on this?
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Their dps could not both be 250k if all of their stats were equal save for crit chance. The dps contribution of that CC would need to be made up for with a loss in intellect to have the effect you're looking for.

The answer to your question would be that they will likely end up being nearly identical in eDPS with a slight edge for the one with higher CC because he will get a few more SA procs.

Other than shocking aspect, both players will likely have their ability come off cooldown faster than their internet connection will let them cast, and will likely have more arcane power than they can spend.

The single largest determining factor (larger than the difference in CC) in who will do more dps is who has the lowest ping


Acha. So this answer flies in the face of the other ansewrs I've received. And I do believe the determining factor is actually real world (ie: lag, ping, or whatever) and math model. So BDF, prey tell, in the "math model" world...does your answer change? Assuming I made the adjustments to Intel in order to create the identical DPS at 250k, save for the crit chance...does the higher crit chance edge out - and if so, is it JUST because of SA procs?
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09/10/2013 02:22 PMPosted by jenpeezey
Straighten your boy out.


Can I get in on this?


There's a joke I can make here that will undoubtedly earn me a forum vacation....lovely, ever so lovely, Ms. Peezey ;)
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09/10/2013 02:23 PMPosted by Melkor
Assuming I made the adjustments to Intel in order to create the identical DPS at 250k, save for the crit chance...does the higher crit chance edge out - and if so, is it JUST because of SA procs?


If you are not limited by ping and live in a Newtonian, frictionless, perfect sphere of a world....

Then the person with 60% CC will get more CM procs, and cast more attacks per unit time than the one with 55% CC in addition to having more Shocking aspect Procs. Resulting in more eDPS for the one with 60%CC.
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I think so at least...it could also be the case that if casting spells in no longer limited by ping that we end up spending arcane power faster than we can generate it. You might have to ask Loroese if you don't like the real-world answer.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 9/10/2013 2:31 PM PDT
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Nah, I like the answer. Thanks brudda.
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Assuming we're talking about CM/SNS here...

Player A (60CC) will have a higher eDPS multiplier than Player B (55CC). Generally speaking.

There is an exception to this though...

IF player A's equal sheet dps is comprised of a significantly higher amount of CHD, then the eDPS tables may turn in his favor when they are both running Deep Freeze. The reason for this is that 15CC may favor his extra CHD (on his sheet) to overcome the difference in multiplier.

Looking at the CM/WW Sim, it's fair to say that each point of CC gives you roughtly +0.05 to +0.08 eDPS multiplier with SNS. It will vary depending on what exactly (ias, CHD, avg dmg, int) makes up your sheet dps.

-dolynick
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Hey melk could you be perhaps thinking of weapon damage % ?

say your player A has a 43% weapon damage lollipop or whatever and player B has a 50% damage toothpick or sum such.

Then i would say player B's eDPS? would be better due to the weapon damage modifier.... but really his sheet dps should be higher anyway.

So if your are forcing same sheet dps values but tweaking amounts of int and/or CD to bring player 2 up to the same dps overcoming the 5 cc deficit - in this scenario i still think player B might have a better chance at edps. Now this really needs some hardcore math to proove but the theory is this: Player A althought having better chance to crit will effectively crit more for less now player be will crit less for more (lol just follow me on this one).

Depending on the math it might show that the cumulative crits of player B will out dps teh cumulative crits of player A simply because of bigger numbers where for such a small number difference in crit chance player A will simply not crit that much more to compensate for his slightly lower crits overall.

I hope i'm making sense because i don't fully understand what your question is it could be the sheet dps buff you get from weapon damage over slightly lower stats or it could be a pure edps crit math problem.

at anyrate i think the difference will be negligible to the human eye in game.

edit: damn it doly you ninja'd me sort of - but yeah it's possible that having higher cd can compensate for the lower cc at super high levels - so like a scaling thing yeah?
Edited by Amos#6777 on 9/10/2013 3:14 PM PDT
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09/10/2013 03:10 PMPosted by Amos
Depending on the math it might show that the cumulative crits of player B will out dps teh cumulative crits of player A simply because of bigger numbers where for such a small number difference in crit chance player A will simply not crit that much more to compensate for his slightly lower crits overall.


The assumption is that both players have the same: APOC, CD, IAS, Wpn DMG, and that both have a sheet dps of 250k.

What you are talking about with averaging out number of crits is already taken into account when the game generates that sheet dps number....so the only differences in dps are things that don't get shown in the sheet dps number. Namely number of CM and SA procs.
Edited by BDF#1838 on 9/10/2013 3:16 PM PDT
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09/10/2013 03:15 PMPosted by BDF
The assumption is that both players have the same: APOC, CD, IAS, Wpn DMG, and that both have a sheet dps of 250k.


but then sheet dps will be different unless the player is making up for that with int which should change hit crit numbers anyway right?

if we are just talking about flat out procs then more will always = better in perfect universes
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What you are talking about with averaging out number of crits is already taken into account when the game generates that sheet dps number....so the only differences in dps are things that don't get shown in the sheet dps number. Namely number of CM and SA procs.


You're forgetting that the higher CHD player will simply gain more on his sheet from DF than the higher CC player. That's the wrong way to put it because in then end multipliers should be calculated from unbuffed dps, but it illustrates the point. Depending on how big the CHD difference is, it might be enough to offset the higher multiplier advantage. This isn't always going to be true, but it should be possible.

And yes, Amos, it's a scaling/proportional thing.

-dolynick
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but then sheet dps will be different unless the player is making up for that with int which should change hit crit numbers anyway right?

if we are just talking about flat out procs then more will always = better in perfect universes


This isn't wow, Intelligence doesn't give you CC.

Sheet dps already averages out your Wpn Dmg, attacks/sec, CC, and CD. Meaning that if they both cast say...magic missile 10,000 times they will do nearly identical dps.
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