Diablo® III

Spiketrap change isn't necessarily that bad..

Lets have another price check or gearing thread to cleanse us of the stench of all this speculation.
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09/16/2013 08:55 PMPosted by OhHellzNo
Lets have another price check or gearing thread to cleanse us of the stench of all this speculation.


Lol, I was just talking about this in TS with other guild members about 15 minutes ago. It's kind of a slap in the face for all the hard work oscar and others did to get those stickies up so that newcomers can have nearly all the info needed.

I post in a few of those too. I don't discriminate :D
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 9/16/2013 8:59 PM PDT
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OH MY. An overall rework of all the stickies. LOL

Get a request out later so that the stickies be removed and let's collaborate, yet again, once !@#$ comes up to do what we do best..

Experiment and have fun while doing so ;)
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LOL you are taking those posts talking about those posts too seriously!

Damage control.


Master got attacked and the pet dog come out barking.

Epic
Edited by SwSw#2890 on 9/18/2013 2:00 AM PDT
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People going on about leaving DH after a minor setback.

I'm staying, Others are staying, It is people who stay that give Demon Hunter a good name, not people who leave just because they cant face tank any more....

Bombardment is being buffed because we cant hold it up too long in the patch, so we will have to use other skills that let us move (SP is going to be LOH). Deal with it. We have always dealt with it and will continue to do so.

We get a new ability (good for glass cannons) called shadow wall, I will certainly favor using this and bombardment as a new build.

Lets not bicker just because our old build is going, lets make new ones. We may be getting "nerfed" but I can promise you we will find ways to make it look like a buff.

Until Reaper Of Souls comes out, I will play monk. When it comes out, I will play my DH. Then I will have two classes that I have experience in to play as, who knows, we might even get addicted to the crusader (I mean, a two handed weapon and shield equipped at the same time)

We also have no more AH, which is good for me because I dont see any more Credit Card warriors with only 40 hours game time with end game gear. So lets find something to clap about in a good way, instead of ripping eachother apart :)
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level 70+ weapons is a huge buff... no need to worry about it IMO.
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data-sticky
2 +2 +2 = 6 secs and 280x3 = 840 ~= 140/sec (100% accuracy)


it will only explode 1 time, not 3 times...
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09/16/2013 01:02 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
man I know your math is bad, but I didn't know it is this bad
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09/21/2013 08:55 PMPosted by LegitBeastin
man I know your math is bad, but I didn't know it is this bad


hmm, why is it bad?
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Assuming CE still gives 6 max it's a potential concurrency buff for 2H's.

<1/2 the damage/sec of current echoing but 9 explosions for 1 cast >x2 the efficiency. Sticky is meh, worse than current Echo but at least sticks so you don't have to tank;

Only hope more things give +trap% damage
Edited by zoid#1554 on 9/22/2013 3:52 PM PDT
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Everybody is missing an important point to using spike trap as a " set trap skill " and that is the lame long !@# casting animation interruption. As a trap skill it should not have any casting animation / interuption like caltrops / sentry etc .. in the same breathe, mark for death should not have a casting animation as well.

Most tank players will not understand this concept well...
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Everybody is missing an important point to using spike trap as a " set trap skill " and that is the lame long !@# casting animation interruption. As a trap skill it should not have any casting animation / interuption like caltrops / sentry etc .. in the same breathe, mark for death should not have a casting animation as well.

Most tank players will not understand this concept well...

//big agreements

It should have the same interruption flag (around 1/2 mark) as shots which it does not have.. it takes 100% of the motion which ruins stutter.

as for buff/debuff like M4D, that should be instant, and cast able while running
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Everybody is missing an important point to using spike trap as a " set trap skill " and that is the lame long !@# casting animation interruption. As a trap skill it should not have any casting animation / interuption like caltrops / sentry etc .. in the same breathe, mark for death should not have a casting animation as well.

Most tank players will not understand this concept well...

//big agreements

It should have the same interruption flag (around 1/2 mark) as shots which it does not have.. it takes 100% of the motion which ruins stutter.

as for buff/debuff like M4D, that should be instant, and cast able while running


Question. Why should Traps be instant or half animation in your opinion (zoid & BlackVenom) but also to zoid why should M4D also be instant (like caltrops)?

The only obvious reason that I can think of is with no delay it then becomes instant damage vs time delayed (as eDPS as well as potential CC options suffer as a result of timedelay). Is there no other reason?

Are you guys keeping class balance in mind? Do you think this is definitely a requirement for us to have and simply being overlooked currently by Blizz?

I only play DH so I don't fully understand/realise the nuances of other skills for the other classes and figure that if this is your take on how ST should work after the rework to our skills is complete, then is this because of some great discrepancy between the DH class in comparison to the other classes if you keep in mind the proposed incoming changes to the other classes?

Genuinely curious.

Silver
Edited by Silver#6986 on 9/23/2013 7:49 PM PDT
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Question. Why should Traps be instant or half animation in your opinion (zoid & BlackVenom) but also to zoid why should M4D also be instant (like caltrops)?

The only obvious reason that I can think of is with no delay it then becomes instant damage vs time delayed (as eDPS as well as potential CC options suffer as a result of timedelay). Is there no other reason?


We are getting DPS buff and also more re-arming per cast = good

Spike trap is a trap skill that is suppose to proving burst / delay damage. They have the delay damage correct.

Here is how ST works right now and in future. We shoot 3-5 primary attacks ( bola/HA/ES etc. ) which provides constant damage. We stop to cast ST = no damage .. cast ST and continue shooting.

What happens??

Option 1 : 3 bola's plus 1 ST = 480% plus 230% weapon damage over 2 seconds
or
Option 2 : 3 bola's plus 3 bola's = 880% weapon damage over 2 seconds ..

See the problem there? A hatred spender is suppose to give added burst damage by spending hatred. That only happens at the start of the fight but after that you will loose out by casting ST..

Option 3 : 3 bola's ( HA) plus 3 bola's and ST casting sometime in between those bolas without interuption = 880% weapon damage over 2 seconds plus 230% additional weapon damage but with a delay..

The other problem also is shoot and move. Spike trap can be ranged and tank skill actually. But as a delay damage skill should it's only 1 downside / cons. Not delay and casting animation and long casting animation that doesn't really scale with attack speed and thus slowing down ranged players..
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 9/23/2013 10:10 PM PDT
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isn't it 3 bangs per trap?
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Option 1 : 3 bola's plus 1 ST = 480% plus 230% weapon damage over 2 seconds
or
Option 2 : 3 bola's plus 3 bola's = 880% weapon damage over 2 seconds .. .

don't bias, you specifically prevented ST from using more than 1 of it's blasts :(

use a 7 second interval since you have to account for 100% skills use for a fair average, including the last second for the final bola.

(assumes 2.00 aps, 200% Spike trap damage, 160% bola)
A)
1 ST + 11 Bolas +1 second for the last bola
= 600% + 1760%
= 2360% over 7

2)
12 Bolas +1 seconds for the last bola
= 1920% over 7

clearly using a full ST with bolas is better if the fighting interval is >6 seconds
as an interval collapses ST becomes a waste, (so too would bola but to a far lesser degree)

the other issue I have with ST is the throttle of 3 (or 6 from CE). it's the limit3 that causes their power to be weakened in the hands of APS builds (e.g. 1h)

people mistake delay for the cause of a skill being weak for 1h, that is not true. the limit defines the rate you fire because you don't want to cast new ST until the previous have all exploded.. with Bola there is no limit, so that is not an issue

also. ST = 8 yards, that's a spender with 1/3 the area of a generator. it's not the big issue for me, but amusing in some way

09/23/2013 07:48 PMPosted by Silver
but also to zoid why should M4D also be instant (like caltrops)?

It is stutter friendly, that was what I meant by "should", it only plays 1/2 the animation if you are trying to move or shoot. You can shoot+mark at x2 the speed actually timing it right**

(edit**, what I mean is an animation has an A/B component, you cannot shoot again until the internal timer counts through both it's A and B in terms of time, however the motion of putting down the crossbow "B" can be bypassed and start the 'A' motion of Mark for death (or some movement), in either case it is not a net gain of DPS/APS but you do perform both (Shot + M4D) in the time it takes to do one shot rather than it taking 1 full shot and 1 full mark motion)

however it ruins channels...presumably when you channel most of this game is killing multiple monsters. ie. 1) you should be able to pick a new mark during channel otherwise the skills ruins it's own runes as well as opportunity to min/max

solutions are either runes for MFD tweaked or just make the skill more friendly for min/max by having it not interrupt channels

2) also makes it a tad more congruent with things like Monks MoC:Over Awe and BoH:Blazing Wraith, all of which are perfect concurrency (*cough* Tempest rush gets to do it)

___________________________________
as for stutter flow with ST that interval change in pace is imo just obnoxious. That doesn't have much to do with eDPS theorycrafting, (that is nuanced) I just hate the inconsistency (and no I don't think it 'adds flavor')

as for ST damage; the fact that it seems to state it will last 6 seconds for 1 cast doesn't seem too bad on paper. IMO 9 blasts over 6 seconds for only 30 hatred Scatter is going to be Stutter friendly; maybe even TOO stutter friendly since it is so great for concurrency but that depends on if it takes 1,3 or ?? blasts of your ST to kill 'monster X'; Because as we shouldn't be surprised your pDPS/gear is a big variable in the play style you can achieve.
Edited by zoid#1554 on 9/24/2013 8:36 PM PDT
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@ Blackvenom

You see I read this:

We are getting DPS buff and also more re-arming per cast = good

Spike trap is a trap skill that is suppose to proving burst / delay damage. They have the delay damage correct.


...but then I read this:

That only happens at the start of the fight but after that you will loose out by casting ST..


...and this:

The other problem also is shoot and move. Spike trap can be ranged and tank skill actually. But as a delay damage skill should it's only 1 downside / cons. Not delay and casting animation and long casting animation that doesn't really scale with attack speed and thus slowing down ranged players..


My understanding is that currently APS will in turn decrease casting animation time (I'll admit not by much but it does decrease). And then we have the currently proposed changes to other areas for DH such as:

- Brooding: You gain 1.5% Life regeneration per second. for every second you remain stationary, stacking up to 3 times. This bonus is reset 5 seconds after you move.

- Numbing Traps: Enemies you Slow or hit with Fan of Knives, Spike Trap, Caltrops, Grenades, and Sentry fire have their damage reduced by 20% for 3 seconds.

Now I understand that skills/passives will no doubt change prior to go live. However for example, by adding a further delay to ST and increasing the number of blasts to x3 for all runes, it appears (to me at least) that now the Numbing Traps 20% damage reduction can potentially be stretched much further then possible now with 3x EBs due to increased delay and if combined with brooding, your Life Regen will increase should you be standing still shooting whatever Hatred spender you like etc, so whilst waiting for all ST blasts to be completed for most of the time you will have 4.5% Life Regen.

Then imagine combining with Smoke Screen runed with:

Healing Vapors : Regenerate 10% Life while invisible

I realise this would be for 1 second only (and only after standing still for a few seconds), but for that one second you just gained 14.5% Life Regen.

The above is one example, but just me trying to think of new ways to benefit from the proposed changes. What you wrote left me a little perplexed is all.

@ zoid, one thing you mentioned stood out to me:

however it ruins channels...presumably when you channel most of this game is killing multiple monsters. ie. 1) you should be able to pick a new mark during channel otherwise the skills ruins it's own runes as well as opportunity to min/max

solutions are either runes for MFD tweaked or just make the skill more friendly for min/max by having it not interrupt channels.


Is this not why we have the rune Contagion?

This is an underrated rune IMO, currently if you group enemies together (especially so in tight spaces) this works wonders, but the proposed change is as follows:

- Contagion: When the enemy is killed, the mark spreads to the closest 3 enemies within 30 yards. This effect can chain repeatedly.

So we just gained another 10 yards and 1 extra enemy marked per marked kill.

I would think this would be amazing with the proposed RF buff!!!

Silver
Edited by Silver#6986 on 9/24/2013 6:00 AM PDT
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So we just gained another 10 yards and 1 extra enemy marked per marked kill.

I would think this would be amazing

I certainly did notice but my thought was it needed that buff patches ago

the point was compare Strafe + M4D with Tempest Rush + Over Awe; gameplay QoL 'smoothness' for the monk seems polished, the DH plays like a speed bump.
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My understanding is that currently APS will in turn decrease casting animation time (I'll admit not by much but it does decrease). And then we have the currently proposed changes to other areas for DH such as:


As Zoid pointed out. Casting interrupts channelling but it is not a major issue for Strafe or RF builds because they would rather conserve Hatred for their channeling choice. But to a higher APS shoot and move type build via lots of primary attacks it is a eDPS lost. Because I can shoot 2-3 primary shots in those instances instead of casting ST. We run into a problem of having too much hatred and cannot get enough burst DPS to justify using it. Cluster Arrow is a better option but the hatred to DPS ratio is just piss poor for that skill.

In future when we do get more dps and 3 blasts per cast. Think about that. That's how much it is behind currently. Mostly because ST 's casting duration was paired to launch DH specs when over 3 APS to 3.5 APS builds were common. So the casting time was much less noticeable. Even with that said. The real solution is zero casting interruption to primary attacks..

@Zoid - nope .. not being bias at all. There are other ST runes I would like to use other than Echoing blast currently. Scatter provides weapon damage paired with cold SoJ is great for AoE and CC versus EB... Therefore I use Scatter every 2 to 4 shots, but I assure you I loose damage every time I cast it. It's only purpose is AoE and CC. A hatred spender doing less damage over 1.6 seconds to 2 seconds intervals is pitiful.. .

Remember that it takes over .7 seconds to cast .. then wait for 1.5 seconds to arm and set off. being able to having scatter explode every 1.6 to 2 seconds is not that easy in the first place. My DH is setup with 14% bonus to ST and 25% to HA .. I do 400-450 k damage per hit with HA and about 750k damage with Scatter. I can shoot 3 HA in the time it takes to cast 1 scatter that hits 2 out of three in most situations. Like I said. great for AoE and CC but piss poor against single targets. Too bad it is the most useful spender over all though.. But like all DH skills.. soo close to being great but never there..
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 9/24/2013 1:33 PM PDT
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In most cases when people ask for a buff or skill upgrade change it is to make their build or play style better. Having zero casting time / interruption for ST would help all builds.

It won't make it OP. Right now it is not at it's potential. Putting it in the zero casting time would make it just right. ST has 3 downsides - high hatred cost / delay / and longer than normal casting time ( doesn't not scale with APS correctly - MDF doesn't scale at all )..

All skills should have pros and cons. 1 or maybe 2 but never 3 in one skill. ST currently has 3 drawbacks that just isn't right .. the one that doesn't belong there is casting time and casting interruption..
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