Diablo® III

Spiketrap change isn't necessarily that bad..

In most cases when people ask for a buff or skill upgrade change it is to make their build or play style better. Having zero casting time / interruption for ST would help all builds.

It won't make it OP. Right now it is not at it's potential. Putting it in the zero casting time would make it just right. ST has 3 downsides - high hatred cost / delay / and longer than normal casting time ( doesn't not scale with APS correctly - MDF doesn't scale at all )..

All skills should have pros and cons. 1 or maybe 2 but never 3 in one skill. ST currently has 3 drawbacks that just isn't right .. the one that doesn't belong there is casting time and casting interruption..


Those downsides can be circumvented easy, but it doesn't play nice with the pacing of looting at the current moment. <- which is one of the biggest hidden problems with this game as is, the pacing of looting being one dimensional at the moment.

The different game types coming soon could give Spike Trap that opportunity, same with Sentry.

If for some players placing a Spike Trap is such a big loss in damage over Cluster Arrow, why don't they just use Cluster Arrow. Having excess Hatred it's being dumped in that attack anyhow, furthermore it's getting a blast radius buff.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 9/24/2013 2:22 PM PDT
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but it doesn't play nice with the pacing of looting at the current moment. <- which is one of the biggest hidden problems with this game as is,


I agree 100%. At this point in the D3 gameplay life the objective is soooo pointless and sooo bad and we try soooo hard for nothing..

Loot is the core of the game but it is sooooo bad .. sooo bad I can describe it. The easy scapegoat is AH / RMAH. This is the new Calamity versus Manticore arguement.. it will go on forever.

D3 as it is now :
1 - we play trying to loot. Why? so we may find gear in hopes of upgrade. This never happens or happens in such a small way it is insignificant.

2 - The next thing we do because we have no other choice is go to AH to buy gear so we can farm more efficiently. Why? I will never understand. No matter how efficiently you farm, you will never, ever, ever get loot worth keeping or selling. Unless you Bot. Then that puts you in another conundrum - you need to Bot to upgrade but you don't play the game anymore. So why upgrade? so you can upgrade you Bot?

3 - is the rarest of the rare type of players. Play D3 for the gameplay. Give up the idea of farming because it is fruitless and just play. Solve some of the issues facing many players. First there was the DH not being able to stay ranged and play MP10. Then there's the issues of class envy. DH versus monks/barbs/WD and Wiz. and newly added DH envies other DH.. All with the basis of " efficient looting " as the measuring stick.. Again this endless pointless circle is the true hidden problem...

In the new xPack we are going the other end of the extreme. No AH. So for the most part we are guessing that we are playing towards more of a self found type gameplay. No offense are arguement against the idea. I worry only about the execution.

" AH was suppose to be a safe place for players to trade " end quote. We can debate the end result and look for blame all day.

xPack or March brings a new era for D3. No AH and promised loot worth playing for. I am hopeful. All that remains is the execution by the Devs.
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 9/24/2013 6:28 PM PDT
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^ Well said!

By the way thank you BlackVenom for the previous response to my question. I appreciate the insight.

Same to you zoid.

Silver
Edited by Silver#6986 on 9/24/2013 8:28 PM PDT
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@Silver - you're welcome. One more point I forgot actually about ST as a very well rounded skill is the CASTING RATE. It's controlled by two mechanisms. Higher hatred cost means gear plus skills slots ( vengance / gear/ custom engineering) is what keeps it from being OP. But also the casting rate.

Casting rate is controlled also by the detonation rate as well as hatred cost. You can't just spam 3 ST EB cause you run out of hatred. Or cast 4 or 2 scatter because there is limit mechanism for number of traps on screen.

So with Hatred and number of traps as a limit you can only cast 1 EB per second or 1 scatter every 1.6 seconds. So that is what keeps it from being OP.

With that said .. Here's the drawback .. It always comes down to casting animation and interruption. If I cast 1 ST per second or so I would loose DPS due to the casting interuption..

With the new xPack though it will be very different with longer fuse to detonate. It will be used as a trap at the beginning of the fight .. ie: Spike Trap - mostly scatter ( now with longer fuse and 3 additional blast within 6 seconds) .. some more Primary attacks and accompanied by another hatred spender. The casting animation won't matter as much this time around because recasting means loosing the ST already on screen. But also you will need to recast every 6 seconds or every 3 seconds ( depends on rune) versus 1 per second with casting animation delay.

So think of ways to use Constant damage ( HA/ Bola/ tick rate attacks/ sentry etc ) / burst damage ( Impale/multi-shot/Fan of Knives etc.. and delay damage( spike trap / RoV etc..) as a DH. It looks like that will be easier comeby..

I do look forward to strafe / elemental arrow and impale to cost zero or even generate hatred.. very cool ideas coming from blizzard ..
Edited by BlackVenom#1754 on 9/24/2013 9:42 PM PDT
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09/24/2013 09:38 PMPosted by BlackVenom
You can't just spam 3 ST EB cause you run out of hatred.

Don't know about EB that much but emptying hatred is not such a bad idea. I mean since most of us uses generator as well so emptying hatred ASAP means maximum burst damage which hopefully results in dead mobs faster.
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@SwSw - EB can be spammed but you loose out in so many ways. I use scatter and EB and this is what I came up with.

Scatter = more burst / instant and highly mobile gameplay.

Scatter against the wall to pack 2 in one spot and increase the chance of all 3 to go off plus cold weapon damage for CC ..

EB - use 3 all at once and then you have to wait for all of them to go off or you loose them as you recast. Plus now you are stuck in an area or you won't detonate the EB. Poor gameplay and execution.

EB- used 1 per second will build up to 3 EB on screen. Thus getting 3 EB to go off per second after the 3 second setup time. So more eDPS over time. Plus it ensures you have 50% hatred to spend at all times. You can slot another hatred spender to take advantage of curtain situations or SNAPSHOT.

What I do against reflect or extra life with fast affix elites is this. I use shadow power while casting EB. Right before shadow power ends I cast out all 3 EBs. then I just use HA and avoid damage while EB gives me gives me Life Steal after shadow power ends.. So 3 to 5 seconds longer shadow power LS than normal.
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but it doesn't play nice with the pacing of looting at the current moment. <- which is one of the biggest hidden problems with this game as is,


I agree 100%. At this point in the D3 gameplay life the objective is soooo pointless and sooo bad and we try soooo hard for nothing..

Loot is the core of the game but it is sooooo bad .. sooo bad I can describe it. The easy scapegoat is AH / RMAH. This is the new Calamity versus Manticore arguement.. it will go on forever.

D3 as it is now :
1 - we play trying to loot. Why? so we may find gear in hopes of upgrade. This never happens or happens in such a small way it is insignificant.

2 - The next thing we do because we have no other choice is go to AH to buy gear so we can farm more efficiently. Why? I will never understand. No matter how efficiently you farm, you will never, ever, ever get loot worth keeping or selling. Unless you Bot. Then that puts you in another conundrum - you need to Bot to upgrade but you don't play the game anymore. So why upgrade? so you can upgrade you Bot?

3 - is the rarest of the rare type of players. Play D3 for the gameplay. Give up the idea of farming because it is fruitless and just play. Solve some of the issues facing many players. First there was the DH not being able to stay ranged and play MP10. Then there's the issues of class envy. DH versus monks/barbs/WD and Wiz. and newly added DH envies other DH.. All with the basis of " efficient looting " as the measuring stick.. Again this endless pointless circle is the true hidden problem...

In the new xPack we are going the other end of the extreme. No AH. So for the most part we are guessing that we are playing towards more of a self found type gameplay. No offense are arguement against the idea. I worry only about the execution.

" AH was suppose to be a safe place for players to trade " end quote. We can debate the end result and look for blame all day.

xPack or March brings a new era for D3. No AH and promised loot worth playing for. I am hopeful. All that remains is the execution by the Devs.


Really well said dude
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@SwSw and @D3MON - played less D3 this summer due work and golf. But ina month or so I will play EU server mode. Impreza hooked me up with great starter gear so I am ready to go..

09/25/2013 12:12 AMPosted by SwSw
No trolling, I promise =D


Gonna miss that. To be honest it bring out debate ( hotly debates too) and more importantly really tests a builds limits and the players understanding of their own build. Any small gap or deficiencies comes out when you really dig into it. Or more correctly get under the other player's skin. Only really solid builds will stand up and take it .. HAHA..
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Problem right now is kite play styles are just not as efficient. Sure you can stutter step but against fast/vortex elites or just fast mobs in general, you lose a lot of dps. Why's that? You are moving or kiting instead of sitting there spamming out attacks.

Do I think a gloom and spike trap tank with a big heavy cross bow makes sense? No.

Does having to retrace the steps you took kiting beat the crap out of your clear time? Yeah, I've tried it both ways. Back tracking is the #1 cause of lost xp/time and kiting is the cause.

I think they should take their time with the xpac and that many of the passives and imagined skill synergies are remnants of the early system before legendary buffs, monster power, nephalem valor etc. Kiting was great for the "super hard" elite packs, but in the paragon grind day and age.. I cannot think of anything that hurts your xp/hour more than having to kite.

In groups, being a kite spec sucks too imo. The mobs split off all over the place and you end up kiting SOME of the mobs that are basically 4 times as strong HP wise while the rest of the group melees or whirlwinds them down. If you are solo? Kiting the whole pack vs just some of them at about 1/3 or 1/4 the hp does work, but again, back tracking after kiting.
Edited by nirgon#1278 on 9/26/2013 9:40 AM PDT
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If you're kiting you're ALWAYS losing time. That's never going to change, and I don't know what people would want from that type of thing.

Yet... they avoid Sharpshooter? Not realizing that if you enjoy the move and shoot style and have to split, Sharpshooter helps make up the lost ground damage wise, especially when your yellow numbers can kill. That's how ranged play works, you fight to maintain that range. The biggest issue is that this game doesn't promote ranged as the monsters became far less threatening. Does anyone remember the time when throw Barbs were sought after JUST because you could throw weapons from range? Monsters aren't scary anymore so they can beat their heads up against them.

If people's primary concern is about efficiency trying to rush to get some terrible items, then ranged play isn't for you, as D3's metagame is all screwed up. DHs can deal damage, but ranged play is simply not as effecient as melee play because melee play doesn't have to consider threats anymore and slow down. Everyone should've known that monster nerfs would've made it this way, people complained that early D3 was too much of a ranged game, they fixed it(hahah).

In a group play setting, if the melee players are playing a good team game, the DH ranged player doesn't have to kite. EF in offhand, cold SoJ, Cyclone, other crowd control, etc.

nirgon, why do you play Demon Hunter? You seem conflicted.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 9/26/2013 12:45 PM PDT
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Problem right now is kite play styles are just not as efficient. Sure you can stutter step but against fast/vortex elites or just fast mobs in general, you lose a lot of dps. Why's that? You are moving or kiting instead of sitting there spamming out attacks.


This is a biased approach. Often I hear people tell me "what if you're fighting a mutated demonic tremor/phasebeast hybrid with fast, teleport, reflect, waller, jailor, arcane vortex illusionist, shielding on mp 9000, then what? This is why ranged is bad!" type of arguments, yet we ignore the many things that makes using an RF spec a pain in the !@# (using that as just an example) because of the ease of execution and the massive amounts of damage it can do in it's near perfect scenario's so we accept it.

There are affixes that will force a player to drop attacks regardless of whether you're playing melee or ranged. Fast is not one of them (although a pain in the $%^ on certain mobs) and if a player is dropping attacks due to this, then that's an execution problem on behalf of the player. The type of player is irrelevant.

Does having to retrace the steps you took kiting beat the crap out of your clear time? Yeah, I've tried it both ways. Back tracking is the #1 cause of lost xp/time and kiting is the cause.


I agree that back tracking does hurt clear time. I think if "kiting" is the absolute number 1 reason of xp/time loss then something is wrong. I'm assuming that maybe you feel kiting backwards is the only option available, but it's viable to kite around and control where you want the pack to finish off at. In some cases, you can actually finish out ahead if you don't have issues fighting other things along the way. The way I look at it as a ranged DH is that when I meet a pack, my "boxing ring" is simply a bit larger than my counter part. If i ended up outside the ring or near the ropes when it's over, then I observe what I did wrong. If i ended up closer to the "exit" after downing that pack, then I take that as a win.

The main issue is clearing as a melee player is like putting your left foot in front of your right foot to walk to get from point A to point B. Doing it as a Ranged player is like trying to do the same thing, but walk on your hands instead. It's doable, but for most, it's like "why bother?" especially in a game like this. I personally like the challenge of being able to walk on my hands and keep up with most that walk with feet. I find it fun, but for most, it's a crazy thought and I don't blame them :P

I think they should take their time with the xpac and that many of the passives and imagined skill synergies are remnants of the early system before legendary buffs, monster power, nephalem valor etc.


Agreed.

n groups, being a kite spec sucks too imo. The mobs split off all over the place and you end up kiting SOME of the mobs that are basically 4 times as strong HP wise while the rest of the group melees or whirlwinds them down. If you are solo? Kiting the whole pack vs just some of them at about 1/3 or 1/4 the hp does work, but again, back tracking after kiting.


In groups you shouldn't really have to kite unless the group.... well... sucks. I'm assuming the group has at least 1 "tank" or melee player in that regard. If you're playing solo and find yourself backtracking more often than not as a ranged player, then you're either guiding the packs straight backwards with no attempt of leading them where you want, or the MP level is too high for you to down them in a reasonable time due to either not enough DPS or poor execution of specific build.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 9/26/2013 11:30 PM PDT
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09/26/2013 09:38 AMPosted by nirgon
In groups, being a kite spec sucks too


Not true... because :

1. You can kite forward
2. Being in a group allows you to take down harder enemies. ( especially budget builds)
3. The mobs split off when the group is not organized and they didn't adjust and set the proper skills to back each other accordingly.
4. Its not exactly 4 times as strong, because each player only adds 50-75 % hp rite ? So 4 players vs 100% + 200 % hp = roughly 300 % . So its still beneficial as a team, unless some members lack equipments and damage. (then its a different story altogether)
Edited by Mao#6908 on 9/27/2013 3:04 AM PDT
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One of the new legendaries make spike traps look sexy. "Your Spike Traps lure enemies to them." Depending on the mechanics behind how this works, it could be anywhere from overpowered to unreliable.
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