Diablo® III

It's over Demon Hunters - Shadow Power nerf

The DH is way more than just an archer stereotype, DH has an amazing skill set that creates valuable game-play whether you prefer ranged, tank or a bit of both styles. No other class currently comes close to this.

A tank hunter is simply the other side of the game-play coin, its leveraging defensive stats and skills to give the player effectiveness on the battlefield. There can be nuance in tank play if you want there to be.

The new skills, items and options via Paragon 2.0 should rise all boats and you should really see options for all players explode and fresh ideas and game-play should come forth.

Is it really that hard to play DH and not snipe at each other?

I can see a mixed tank and ranged DH team clearing some loot runs and nephalem trials first.
Edited by sneakytails#1320 on 9/16/2013 7:28 PM PDT
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Get over it, we'll never have the same eDPS as the other 4 classes but they'll never have as fun as we do ;)

FUN CARD :)

09/16/2013 07:27 PMPosted by sneakytails
I can see a mixed tank and ranged DH team clearing some loot runs and nephalem trials first.


Grenade type TANK DHs rocking Cluster for unlimited Shadow Power or whatever Discipline Skill they have in mind + 3 Ranged DHs.

IMO, they are bringing justice back to what they did to the TankDH spec last last 1.03 major JS nerf.
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 9/16/2013 7:50 PM PDT
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I've played with Iso for a very long time almost a year. Once he's within his respective effective zones and dealing damage, he's doing more than me without question, and that's something that's never been denied. That's actually never changed for WDs since early in the game's life. It's just that previously, WDs were slow on movement(probably the slowest) and had it rougher on resources, but once they got into Bears area they were doing massive amounts. At that time, for all classes it was much more difficult just to achieve 24% movement speed <- now it's available and achievable on so many different pieces and that strips the DH ranged damage dealing on a class comparison.

But I can still deal damage first and before they do. If that damage is enough to kill the monster, they won't be able to touch it. However, when playing in an area or MP where we're undergeared offensively then the monsters won't die yet and then they step in when the monsters reach their sweet spot, or is alive long enough for them to do so.

DHs strike FIRST. It's one of our biggest pros.

^And that's exactly how I play mine, I strike first. Arrows are already tearing the flesh of monsters while that WD is Spirit Walking in. Maybe you choose not to engage from full and offscreen, and that's your choice. The clock starts for me on a monster needing to die, the moment that monster is visible - not when I get up close to it. At which point a skill like Cloud of Bats isn't even doing damage yet, and WD's using Spirit Walk help more toward their damage dealing than others realize as it allows them to close the gap on the monsters and CoB sooner.

Think about how Monk's Dashing Strike's Spirit cost went up(the datamine shows the cost doubled). That skill is HUGE in getting Monks to the damage dealing sweat spot as soon as possible. Now it's more costly on resources. They Dashing Strike to the monsters, and will have to punch them in the throat a few times before dropping a bells, so it evens their damage out while still maintaining its potency.

Remember back to what it was like when players struggled just to get 12% movement speed? Now people are at 24% readily available. When playing as a melee class or needing to get in close, movement speed equates to damage. Barbs got their Fury spamming nerfed up so they can't just sprint in on berserker immediately, but now skills like Ancient Spear and Weapons Throw are changed for the better, so they can deal damage in all ranges or pull monsters into their range(of dealing more damage) without cooldown.

Look at the totality of it all. That's why those Ghom tests and all that is laughable, because for one DHs aren't even given the chance to set up all of their sentries and whatnot before the clock the starts.


Maybe iso is always running bear/bat combo but not all WDs do...

This is how I see it -

mp5+ games, wd's will run zombie bears and bats and even though you do STRIKE first they will deal more dmg in total by the time the run is over - the best way to confirm it is to run with a wd who has a similar dps to your dh on mp5, do only weeping and fields (without caves/events etc) to ensure there is a roughly similar amount of foes... first run wd doesnt attack but lets you clear those two areas (you have timed it obviously), second run only wd does the attacking.... I promise you that WD will clear the area faster (try it with iso, clearing those two areas twice shouldnt take too long)

Lower mps, where one shooting happens (trick I've learned from Enrock) WD's dont have to run bears/bats combo but instead acid cloud/bats combo.. in which case you dont STRIKE first as a dh coz every skill we're using has to travel from our char to that enemy on the other side of the screen, when WD clicks acid cloud there is no travelling distance hence he STRIKES first which means you're losing that small advantage (and its a small advantage considering they spirit walk most of the time) of striking first...

Just give it a try you'll see they're doing it harder...better....faster....stronger....
While we're doing it with more fun, more diversity, more style and way sexier !!! :)
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Smithy... I had a long post I was going to type up, but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from based on what I was saying.

There's a lot of things around the game itself that have changed, that has nothing to do with "eDPS" and a huge one is movement and travel speed from point A to B, not just zone to zone but just from one end of the screen to the other. The faster you make it for other classes to close a gap from monster to monsters, the weaker ranged classes/builds become.

Outside of attacks like classic Nether Tentacles, DHs have always been the lowest on %weapon damage and it's by balance and design. And I don't think a lot of people realize or even understand that - especially when they actively work against that by vaulting right into monsters where our damage output isn't as good as another class that's better designed to be in that position in the first place. Being able to start DPS'ing before a close ranged build type is what's "supposed" to balance that out.

In one shot land, WD on Acid Cloud would be hard pressed to beat Multishot I assure you. I think you've forgotten about what's in our arsenal.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 9/17/2013 3:45 AM PDT
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tank with ranged weapons wielded? I really don't like the concept
Dh should be an hybrid with quick close combat attacks, move and retreat at best.
We can't equip dual melee or 2 handed as a dh and there's no reason to play melee weapon+shield so standing always in the middle of an horde with a fragile fighter with a bow equipeed leeching life under gloom forever imho is painful to watch.
I BLESS a shadow power nerf if it comes for real
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Action, I completely agree with you on that point, the game has changed and those changes left DH's as the most balanced class, while taking away our ranged advantages (through other classes buffs).

I however take movement speed (as well as other mechanics that changed) into consideration when discussing edps (maybe this is what you meant when you said everybody has a different definition of edps) for example (within class) 2 ww barbs with same dps wont clear the act at the same speed if one of them is using sprint, sprint ww barb will clear faster hence his edps is higher coz he is dealing more dmg per second than that other barb who is wasting time (seconds without inflicting dmg) to reach his enemies....
If I were to dumb it down - to clear an act takes 100 dmg, whoever inflicts 100 dmg faster has the highest edps, and in that reality DH's are not the first guys to inflict 100 dmg, not on higher mps, on lower mps it depends on the dps of DH's - for example multishot (based on the tests I ran) needs more than 200kdps to one shoot enemies on the lowest mp - mp1... but thats an overkill in hc, average DH doesnt have more than 200kdps and when playing with an avarage WD chances are WD will clear faster even at lower mps...

With monster power and class buffs other classes received DH's lost the range advantage, hence what was keeping our edps equal/higher to/than that of other classes no longer exists in the game as its played today and thats all I mean when I say that we're the worst edps class atm, ROS might change that completely tho, we'll wait and see...
Edited by Smithey77#2936 on 9/17/2013 5:02 AM PDT
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tank with ranged weapons wielded? I really don't like the concept
Dh should be an hybrid with quick close combat attacks, move and retreat at best.
We can't equip dual melee or 2 handed as a dh and there's no reason to play melee weapon+shield so standing always in the middle of an horde with a fragile fighter with a bow equipeed leeching life under gloom forever imho is painful to watch.
I BLESS a shadow power nerf if it comes for real


Just because you don't like the concept, doesn't mean it should've be as is.

What about Monks that are heavily geared towards supporting the team? It shouldn't be so because "I" don't like the concept.

Get my point?

Smithy, DH has the !@#$tiest eDPS, case closed. Stop comparing them to others and more importantly, to BARBS.

We however can be VERY durable and FUN, FUN, not THAT effective, to use.

If you want to wtfpubstomp the game, go play Barb/WD/Monk. To an extent, Wiz if you want to smash buttons :)

DHs are more on skills of the player if you want to use the class to it's "full potential" and staying in range to have Steady Aim active EVERY TIME.

Now I'm sure people will say this and that regarding ranged play, go look at DiE's vid and other vids of the people here.

Ranged Gameplay works. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it won't work for others. I for one am willing to do all the hassles in playing RANGED, it's more fun than pewpew-ing mobs by urinating them with RF.
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[quote]
A WD with 100k sheet damage doesn't automatically just inflict more pain than the DH with 100k sheet damage. But, people think this instantly when it isn't true.


Oh trust me they do. DH sheet dps (300k unbuffed) vs WD sheet dps (200k unbuffed). WD can cast Pestilience which basically infect every monsters on my screen and deals 30-90k dmg per tick in my case AND I can do so continously, coupled with the main attack; COB and 6% LS on weap, I am able to clear huge mobs (100 monsters) w/o ever dying in about 5-10s. And that is also w/o casting any other skills such as BBV( 20IAS+30% dmg).

Now take my DH, yes I run the most brain-dead spec but I find it to be more efficient in clearing packs. I typically takes 10-15s to clear mobs of equal size. If I were to do the fun thing (SC2 Stutter step), it would add more secs to killing time. Any other specs such as EB will still be inferior to what I run on my WD.

Just my two cents.
Edited by Normy#1779 on 9/17/2013 10:22 AM PDT
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tank with ranged weapons wielded? I really don't like the concept
Dh should be an hybrid with quick close combat attacks, move and retreat at best.
We can't equip dual melee or 2 handed as a dh and there's no reason to play melee weapon+shield so standing always in the middle of an horde with a fragile fighter with a bow equipeed leeching life under gloom forever imho is painful to watch.
I BLESS a shadow power nerf if it comes for real


Just because you don't like the concept, doesn't mean it should've be as is.

What about Monks that are heavily geared towards supporting the team? It shouldn't be so because "I" don't like the concept.

Get my point?

Smithy, DH has the !@#$tiest eDPS, case closed. Stop comparing them to others and more importantly, to BARBS.

We however can be VERY durable and FUN, FUN, not THAT effective, to use.

If you want to wtfpubstomp the game, go play Barb/WD/Monk. To an extent, Wiz if you want to smash buttons :)

DHs are more on skills of the player if you want to use the class to it's "full potential" and staying in range to have Steady Aim active EVERY TIME.

Now I'm sure people will say this and that regarding ranged play, go look at DiE's vid and other vids of the people here.

Ranged Gameplay works. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't mean it won't work for others. I for one am willing to do all the hassles in playing RANGED, it's more fun than pewpew-ing mobs by urinating them with RF.


I totally get your point. BUT why can't we be fun AND effective at the same time.. I used to play kiting style way back when DH were on par with other class and it was great to have fun and not be discouraged with the discrepancy in efficiency.
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I just don't understand why people want to tank with a charachter that wield a bow as a weapon.
When you choose an hero in this game you know that you have 5 archetype avaible .
If you imagine your hero going in the middle of the hordes fighting in close combat why choosing a demon hunter to do that? considering everyone do it while using a bow :)
In only we could have some specials daggers or melee weapon for us with cool and useful stuff i'll understand ;)
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I just don't understand why people want to tank with a charachter that wield a bow as a weapon.
When you choose an hero in this game you know that you have 5 archetype avaible .
If you imagine your hero going in the middle of the hordes fighting in close combat why choosing a demon hunter to do that? considering everyone do it while using a bow :)
In only we could have some specials daggers or melee weapon for us with cool and useful stuff i'll understand ;)


Because DH never started out this way. You'll hardly see any DH tanks a year ago, waves of nerfs (vocally supported by the Barbs) forces you to a choice of being relevant, having fun to being efficient.
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09/17/2013 10:28 AMPosted by Normy
I totally get your point. BUT why can't we be fun AND effective at the same time.. I used to play kiting style way back when DH were on par with other class and it was great to have fun and not be discouraged with the discrepancy in efficiency.


Because back then, there's no such thing as EFFICIENCY.

Fcking term just went out when Alk started out with his EXP and ITEM runs. Then the whole world suddenly wants to FARM the FASTEST with the LEAST problems.

Hota Barb, WW Barb, SnS/CM Wiz, WoL Monk, CoB WD, and the ever famous(and only one that could somehow compete) SP-Bombardment.

Those specs are what gives the "EFFICIENT" part.

The game degenerated from being a GAME to a "chore". Yes it's a gear-grind game but.. people got too obsessed with efficiency.

I just don't understand why people want to tank with a charachter that wield a bow as a weapon.
When you choose an hero in this game you know that you have 5 archetype avaible .
If you imagine your hero going in the middle of the hordes fighting in close combat why choosing a demon hunter to do that? considering everyone do it while using a bow :)
In only we could have some specials daggers or melee weapon for us with cool and useful stuff i'll understand ;)


So Legolas in LotR violates your rule then, and Gandalf too, they use their staves and bows in melee while they could just do it easier in Range? ;)

"Imagine", that's also a word you might be lacking if you can't see a DH wielding a Sword and Board or an HXbow + Shield.

They work, but, if we'll, once again, talk about efficiency and toss the FUN away, then yeah, it's not "FEASIBLE".

But to each his own, I can have fun killing mobs without me dying. Or devising ways to kill my enemies that is different to other people.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UkQgRe!cXU!ZbaYYc

A build that utilized any weapon you want. May it be 1H XBow or Sword, Dagger, or whatever a DH can wear that is "melee" weapon class + a Shield.

The build works and is quite efficient in terms of tanking.

Skills/Runes can be changed but the idea is quite obvious anyways.
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I just don't understand why people want to tank with a charachter that wield a bow as a weapon.
When you choose an hero in this game you know that you have 5 archetype avaible .
If you imagine your hero going in the middle of the hordes fighting in close combat why choosing a demon hunter to do that? considering everyone do it while using a bow :)
In only we could have some specials daggers or melee weapon for us with cool and useful stuff i'll understand ;)


This is kinda my take on Tank DH's.

I have absolutely nothing against the tank styles, but I personally don't do it because ALL of my other classes have melee builds.

My DH is my lone ranged character, and that's why I continue to stay ranged with him.
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@Chrizzle
ah man there's is not a law against going into melee with a bow sure, but fightning 95% of the time the same way a barb fight its strange ;)
Don't misunderstand me i'm not a close-minded guy and i agree with you :)
Edited by Mesercus#2892 on 9/17/2013 10:55 AM PDT
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This is kinda my take on Tank DH's.

I have absolutely nothing against the tank styles, but I personally don't do it because ALL of my other classes have melee builds.

My DH is my lone ranged character, and that's why I continue to stay ranged with him.


To each his own ;) Before JS got nerfed to oblivion, I was an avid fan and supporter of TankDH mainly because it's EASIER for me and cheaper to do.

Stack LoH, Mitigation and AS and you're good to go. Things were cheap then too if you spec differently from the norm ;)

But tanking got boring, even SP-Bombardment got boring.. so I went back to doing different builds :)

ah man there's is not a law against going into melee with a bow sure, but fightning 95% of the time the same way a barb fight its strange ;)
Don't misunderstand me i'm not a close-minded guy and i agree with you :)


Do remember that 1 time in the history of D3, even the devs, AFAIK, said that they want to see Barbs using Weapon Throw..

And some time thereafter, a Weapon Throw Barb killing Azmodan went out :))

Just because it's out of the norm doesn't mean it won't work XD

Look at SnS/CM Wiz. They went from kiting(good at it too due to Blizz + Hydra + Teleport) to "ez" mode freeze lock spec.

That kind of playstyle wasn't even used before, it was just tested and became popular since it worked.

Before then all was Cluster Bombs + Nether.. Thunder Clap- Sweeping Cyclone.. Blizzard + Poison Hydra + Living Lightning. Zombie Bears + Pet. and EQ + Leap Barb.

Where are those now? Only spec I've seen still being used now to an extent is Zombie Bears and TC+ Sweeping Cyclone :)

I remember when I went to Monk Forums and told them to use Wave of Light and got flamed because the skill is so fcking !@#$ty. It got buffed and it's hard to find a Monk that ain't using it anymore. Same story with RF-Bombardment ;)

TL:DR, things won't work unless you try it at least.. Explore the game :) Now with all those changes they've shown us, more or less, a month will be used up in figuring stuff out until people settles, once again for cookie cutter builds ;)
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yeah i saw the spoiler of the loot 2.0 work, amazing stuff we 'll do some crazy build ;)
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@Novuhz .... uhhhhhhh so I'm confused... are we supposed to be impressed about you being able to kill Belial?

What a person did over a year ago has no bearing on the game today. so what... I made it to para 100 on my DH before the made it a ton easier by extra xp bonuses and higher mob density ... I guess that should impress someone??? LOLOLOL

ooooooo you made money on the RMAH ... guess that should impress us too .... NOT

To me... sounds like an ignorant EU player ... to left the game and came back and thinks they know it all because they happen to be the first EU player to kill Belial in Inferno(doubt that statistic can even be verified ).

You obviously haven't spent enough time in the forums here..... If you think Blues care about America DHs... well.... they don't. Maybe you should go troll the asian forums... perhaps blues there are more receptive.


I think the ignorant player here is you, I guess you never had a feel of the pre-nerf inferno. Belial was the hardest boss back then, diablo was much easier than belial by a huge difference, not only that I didn't use the OP Smokescreen to kill them.

Where did I say I know it all? rofl the only thing I said is that DH who thinks he is doing good with his tank DH who takes ages to kill trash/elites in MP7, he thinks DH's are fine XD

RMAH comment... please learn to read I only explained why my gear was not so good as the top DH's because I used to sell everything in RMAH.

I'm confused my main language is not even english yet you seem to not even know how to read.
Edited by Novuhz#1403 on 9/17/2013 1:07 PM PDT
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^ Guys this is your DH who says DH are fine and links a video showing how terrible DH is hahahaha. Hilarious bro.

I don't run MP10 because it's not efficient for my gear.
LMAO, and I don't run MP7 because it's not efficient for my gear, which is what I tried to tell you when I said "I do MP5 with ease". You challenged to run MP7 without SP, which you said you your self can not do. I can. Fail troll is fail.
Edited by Rav1n#1381 on 9/17/2013 4:02 PM PDT
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"I just don't understand why people want to tank with a charachter that wield a bow as a weapon."

WHY: Because some player like to Tank. It's really fun! The FUN is more important than efficiency!

I like to jump in a monster pack and swim in the plague while fighting. Most DH use SP and Night Stalker to stay alive. I use LoH and 3% LS. I don't need a lot of disc (Vault for repositionning and M4D for Hatred regen with CoT)

I can run MP10 as a Tank DH without SP and SS. I can Farm MP7 easy.

When I play public game on MP10, all (90%) DH use RF build..... they usually have more DPS than me, but they usually only have 1 skill to output some damage (RF) and if they don't snapshot SP (or if they stop channeling....Vortex, KB...), they are dead. After 16 sec, I got 3 CoT, Shuriken, 6 Spike trap, M4D, HA and even ToC dealing damage simultaneously... so I can output good DPS with my low paper DPS. It's FUN to be different.

I'm happy with the SP nerf because it's really boring to see all these DH clones. I think it will help build diversity!

@ Rav1n

+1 for your HC MP7 SP-less video and for the build too.

...sorry for my bad english.....
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