Diablo® III

[Guide] Archon Rebirth (GR87+ PTR)

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If WW was 100% useless, I really doubt that such a nerf would be made though. It may also be enough to be able to cast it twice before activating Archon as long as Archon handles the bulk of the cooldown. So even APoC may not be an issue. I could also use LL as a backup secondary instead of FN, it must be a skill that functions without my input while I'm in Archon form.

Keep in mind that the values I'm talking here aren't exactly your standard 1.4APS or CC. These are high end values that change everything, and not everyone will be walking around with them at decent dps levels.

Even if Archon couldn't be up all the time you could use that time to gather around mobs, though.
See, but you're thinking like an Archon.

The issue is that CM/WW wizards have abused Wicked Wind at high attack speeds, and Blizzard is well aware that WW is ridiculously powerful at high attack speeds. They want to nerf both Archon and CM/WW wizards. Since Frost Nova was not nerfed, it's a good bet that WW is going to be hit hard to tone down CM/WW wizard. I'm expecting something like a 10x nerf for Wicked Wind, since that'll bring Wicked Wind down to the level of skills like Arcane Torrent and Meteor. This is why I'm saying plan on Wicked Wind being "useless" in the sense that you'll have superior options. I don't expect people to completely abandon Wicked Wind (being a stationary DoT), but I do anticipate spells like Living Lightning will probably provide superior performance as far as reducing cooldowns.

EDIT: And if it's not Wicked Wind that's hit by a nerf, that likely means CM is gonna altered/removed in such a way that makes reducing cooldowns more difficult. Either way I'd at least stay clear from Wicked Wind, and the most conservative bet would be to steer clear of both CM+Wicked Wind. Either way, I think talking about the future viability of Wicked Wind right now is a very bad idea.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 9/14/2013 1:53 PM PDT
@TekkZero: I'd also like to add that I've never liked SNS, I always thought that the ability to perma freeze ubers for example was ridiculous, but I have also noticed there's a unique roll for items coming out or at least in testing currently, that will make zombie dogs stun enemies for 1 second on summoning. If there was no change to the ability to spam 0dog, then it doesn't seem like their philosophy regarding that is necessarily changing. There's also a way to pretty much perma stun ubers with bells as I've found recently.
09/14/2013 01:45 PMPosted by dominatus
@Loroese: I don't think it included every passive for every class. Could be wrong though. But I thought it was only the ones with either a wording or function change only. But CM is indeed what I'm most worried about.


I don't really know anything about other classes so I can't say for sure. I didn't look to see if every passive was listed for wizards either, but it seems like they're doing a lot of wording changes. I'd be very surprised if CM goes from current to the expansion without any changes, either in the mechanics or even the description.

I'm still in the boat that it's too far ahead to worry too much about how things will be used. First these are just datamined changes, so nothing is official. Second, the list is likely incomplete. Third, until it actually hits a ptr, I prefer to mostly ignore potential changes since they might completely change their minds, though speculating can still be fun.
09/14/2013 01:53 PMPosted by dominatus
@TekkZero: I'd also like to add that I've never liked SNS, I always thought that the ability to perma freeze ubers for example was ridiculous, but I have also noticed there's a unique roll for items coming out or at least in testing currently, that will make zombie dogs stun enemies for 1 second on summoning. If there was no change to the ability to spam 0dog, then it doesn't seem like their philosophy regarding that is necessarily changing. There's also a way to pretty much perma stun ubers with bells as I've found recently.
Sure, but that's why I think SNS is gonna get boned. IMO, I see SNS as more game-deforming than Archon, so I'd be shocked that barbs+archon got nerfed, and SNS gets a pass.

As it is, we've found out that Frost Nova is currently unaltered, so it's a decent bet that Wicked Wind is gonna get the nerf hammer (rightfully so IMO, since it's so powerful at high attack speeds). And possibly CM too!!! Else SNS will remain as the most powerful wizard build. Not a very good thing for diversity! :p

This is why the nerf to Archon has a lot of people concerned, since perma-Archon is gone, and the best mechanism to reduce cooldowns is likely to get the axe too (but because of SNS, and not Archon). I think we're either gonna be greatly diminished in our ability to reduce cooldowns with a huge nerf to WW, or we'll be completely impotent if they drastically tweak/remove CM. I've always leaned towards WW being nerfed, since it's painfully overpowered in terms of procs per cast. I'm personally expecting the future of builds like SNS will be having to work with 5-10x less procs. And it's not like that's horrible, since stuff like Shock Pulse, Arcane Torrent, and Meteor can proc CM decently. It's just not insane like WW.

This is why I'm encouraging you to experiment with other skills to reduce cooldowns (ie not Wicked Wind), since if we have the ability to reduce cooldowns, it's likely gonna be something like that.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 9/14/2013 2:04 PM PDT
I just had another odd thought about CM. To be consistent with some of the other changes (notably prodigy and arcane dynamo), I could see them changing CM to reduce CDs by 1s for each spell you cast. That would still make it somewhat usable without being completely ground breaking. It would remove the ability to keep ubers completely frozen since it would take 9 spell casts to refresh cold snap, which is at least 2-3 seconds, and ubers don't even stay frozen for 1s at full resistance, I believe.

That would also help them move away from spell coefficients, which seems to be part of what they are trying to do, but that's based on what little changes I saw. They might still need coefficients for LoH and/or APoC though.
Yes, I can use LL if WW is totally gone and there's a need. I still think that I can get over WW nerf, but CM nerf would be another story. They already did the change to Archon core ability. Nerfing CM itself would be too much. So maybe they'll increase Frost Nova cooldown, remove the ability to perma freeze/stun, instead replaced by "immune" message. And also nerf WW. But keep Archon/CM the way it is. If that happens I do think I will be able to make it work most of the time even with just LL and no WW. Testing was pretty promising. I can test more later with LL and different areas btw.
If these changes go live I probably won't be playing archon anymore. The limited duration turns it into a elite beaming skill, but the scaling bonus means you'll want to kill trash (and I'm not rounding up 1/4 of a map lol).

BUT

I've wanted more cosmic themed skills for a while now. I'll be trying to get a pulsar/black hole build to work.
I've added LL to the build post as a potential RoS replacement for WW btw.

I don't know if you all have tried Archon at 2.5APS/65CC btw.. it's pretty nice spamming those arcane blasts and teleporting as much as want where you need to really. May be better to save time for actually getting CM procs in RoS instead of doing that much teleporting though.
09/14/2013 02:09 PMPosted by dominatus
Yes, I can use LL if WW is totally gone and there's a need. I still think that I can get over WW nerf, but CM nerf would be another story. They already did the change to Archon core ability. Nerfing CM itself would be too much. So maybe they'll increase Frost Nova cooldown, remove the ability to perma freeze/stun, instead replaced by "immune" message. And also nerf WW. But keep Archon/CM the way it is. If that happens I do think I will be able to make it work most of the time even with just LL and no WW. Testing was pretty promising. I can test more later with LL and different areas btw.
See, I personally agree it'll be livable with LL, but it won't be insta-cooldown. A lot of people's feelings on CM are heavily skewed because of the awesomeness of Wicked Wind.

Loroese:
I just had another odd thought about CM. To be consistent with some of the other changes (notably prodigy and arcane dynamo), I could see them changing CM to reduce CDs by 1s for each spell you cast. That would still make it somewhat usable without being completely ground breaking. It would remove the ability to keep ubers completely frozen since it would take 9 spell casts to refresh cold snap, which is at least 2-3 seconds, and ubers don't even stay frozen for 1s at full resistance, I believe.

That would also help them move away from spell coefficients, which seems to be part of what they are trying to do, but that's based on what little changes I saw. They might still need coefficients for LoH and/or APoC though.
It's possible, but you'd expect that a wording change would be noted. And it'd be potentially deforming with spells that are "free" like Armor spells, Diamond Skin, and Explosive Blast. This is why I'm leaning towards a massive nerf to the proc coefficient of WW, and them leaving CM alone after that. SNS and Archon builds will still be semi-functional, but in a dramatically reduced state. There's the possibility they could scale down the chance internally for CM to proc, which is what I think could be the most likely tweak (assuming they don't remove CM).
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 9/14/2013 2:34 PM PDT
Speaking of Armors.

Don't you think it's nice to finally get 4minute duration armors. It was so annoying that the armor spells ran out so early with up to 10minute Archons. And then when they finally "double it", Archon lasts for 15 seconds hehe
I like Archon mode's Disintegrate because its a beam that pierces everything. So with Temporal Flux, its a type of GC to hold mobs at bay while you bring them down. The Archon melee attack also KB stuff (100% proc, none of that "chance" BS).

Sustain Archon build is "fun" to play (whether or not its the dev's "intention") because it allows the player to cut through the mobs quickly. The crux is of course keeping it up. This build is somewhat of a classic range build.

Why they are hell-bent on nerfing this I don't know. Isn't CM/WW builds a more "degenerating" play experience? As that build perma freezes all the content and slowly ding them to death regardless of MP level?

I am still hoping that RoS mechanics will still allow Sustain Archon builds some how (which definitely require regearing as tradition dictates.) But at least the option is there.

Regearing / Spec-ing to keep Cool Down as low as possible so you can activate Archon for 15 seconds everytime you need it in a run that spans an hour or so... isn't very fun nor efficient.
@Dezzo: I'm optimistic about still being able to sustain Archon builds in RoS somehow.

I made a change to the build removing Cold Snap from RoS build altogether and replacing that with Deep Freeze as a result of more testing. I also improved my Wiz ehp/dps a bit. I'm running below MP10 to try to create more authentic conditions for my halved dps input for mobs to survive or not and be around for CM procs. Keeping 2.50+APS and 65+CC still as a base with follower.

I came to the conclusion from testing that I should always cast a few WW/LL and attempt to proc Deep Freeze simultaneously every time just prior to re-entering Archon form to ensure it's always ready for a new one when the 15 second duration runs out. And I'm using a clock to time manual cancellation of Archon at 15 second mark.

It seems to work very well before more potential Archon/CM/LL or WW nerfs. LL is enough and Deep Freeze is enough also. None of them are also enough when there are enough mobs around. Just as long as APS/CC are high enough. I can see it being great for places like FoM. I'm using the Teleport rune currently. I don't know if Arcane Destruction is better or worse for keeping it up.

With Deep Freeze we'll be spending the majority of the Archon duration with 15% extra CC dps. On top of that buff we'll also get 3% dps buff/kill. We'll probably be able to use the last half of Archon duration with 10 times that.

Is it really so bad to spend a few second getting to the next pack on foot without Archon, chances are you owned the entire pack already so there's nothing left to fight anyway. It's probably reset already when starting to run to the next pack. All you have to do is survive a couple seconds to buff yourself up with Deep Freeze CC/dps and add a couple LL/WW. Surely the few seconds without Archon are overcome by the new buffs. If Deep Freeze isn't necessary, then Teleport: Wormhole allows us to move much more easily to get to/group up the next pack also.

I'll keep testing more.

edit: typos
Edited by dominatus#2534 on 9/15/2013 9:48 AM PDT
@dominatus: I am impressed with your dedication! I tend to opt for the wait and see mentality when it comes to things like this. Things will probably get clearer about what changed RoS will bring to all classes.

I won't be surprised if they butcher all the popular builds because this is something they did constantly for WoW. And FWIW, D3 shares too many similarities to WoW and I am pretty sure they will use their "tested formulas" that have been "successful" for WoW into D3, every-time they get a chance.
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Edited by dominatus#2534 on 11/3/2013 5:32 AM PST
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Edited by dominatus#2534 on 11/3/2013 5:32 AM PST
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Edited by dominatus#2534 on 12/15/2013 3:33 PM PST
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Edited by dominatus#2534 on 12/15/2013 3:33 PM PST
Bump for PTR update.
Also, get the new arcane whatever set that gives you all archon runes at once, total destruction!
Ok I'm going to admit that I read the title like this:

[Guide] PTR Archon DATASS (Video)

And was sorely disappointed when I opened the thread.
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