Paragon 2.0 question

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09/24/2013 11:59 AMPosted by JacobsHell
This means anyone that is below paragon 100 wont get crap for drops

How exactly did you come to that conclusion?
09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

I thought I would be able to pour all my Paragon Points into MF in order to pad out the disadvantages of farming for items at a lower Monster Power. Then later on if I wanted to try to get keys, I could respec my Paragon Points into nothing but Core Stats and attempt the keywardens at a higher Monster Power. The system you've outlined takes a lot of choice away from how players spend their Paragon Points. I think players will become a little disheartened when they level up, put a point into Utility, and realize that they need to grind an additional 4 levels before they reach some personal milestone.

I think posing the question "what means more to you: your offensive ability or your defensive ability?" is a much more meaningful question to ask players when they level up than "what means more to you: your Core Stat, or Vitality?" The way you've explained the system offers a lot less choice to players then how I had understood Paragon Points up until now.
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)
While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Dear Lady Lylirra,

I believe the question should be why limit the options in the first place? Why did the developers decide to split paragon points into categories like that?

It would be nice to know the answers to these questions from the developer side of things. I mean we´re asked to give reasons why we think such a system is bad, but it´s only fair that we also get some reasoning behind why this splitting system is planned.

Anyway, as always, I don´t just baselessly criticize stuff, so here´s my opinion.

The issue: Splitting up paragon points into categories restricts players.

Shorter version: Imagine there was no “elective mode” for skill choices. It´s almost the same situation as paragon point categories.

Longer version: Having points at your disposal but being unable to spend them where you want or need is worse than having no choice at all from a psychological point of view.

Example: Let´s say I´m playing a Barbarian and this class also generates resource by taking damage. So, I decide to play borderline glassy - on the edge of being killed when I misplay, while maximizing my damage output. Now I gain paragon points and due to splitting them up into categories, 1/4 of them will be in the "Defense" category. But what if I´ve achieved a certain sustain balance and don´t want to spend points in "Defense" at all for this specific type of gameplay?

This version of the system forces me to spend points in that category, otherwise 1/4 of my paragon points would just sit there unused and go to waste. Remember that my choice was not to put any points in that category.

Why am I being forced to spend points where I don´t want to? It makes no sense to me and as you can see from all the responses, the vast majority of players don´t like it either.

Potential counter-arguments that I can think of or have read:
a) “It´s never wrong to have more life or armor/allres, you´re crazy, dude!”
-> In my example, it is, due to Barb Fury generation mechanics (even more important when Into the Fray is gone). Is everyone supposed to run around with the same stats?

b) “You can drop some of the defensive stats on your gear thanks to paragon points and substitute them for more offense like you wanted to.”
-> Yeah, I could, but you´re forcing me to, because I don´t want more defense right now and you leave me with no other choice but to put the points into defense. There is no difference for me between having no choice at all and choice between undesired options. It makes me feel like ¼ of my paragon levels were a waste of time.

c) “The paragon points don´t give you game-breaking (high) bonuses, so you won´t even notice!”
-> Then I ask what´s the point in paragon 2.0 in the first place? This argument goes both ways. There needs to be a balance. The bonuses should be high enough for you to seek them by paragon leveling but low enough for them to not give you game-breaking advantages just from paragon leveling without the need for solid gear.

d) “Without splitting up points you´d have no reason to continue playing if you maxed out the few stats you only care about!”
-> First, each class is different and hopefully there will be more diversity within a class itself, which may require different point distributions and more total points. The proposed system does indeed motivate you to achieve “paragon 800”, at which point it may seem like you gain the freedom of choice at last, but only because you hit the point cap in 3 of the 4 categories. This is quite hilarious, actually.

e) “But dude the new system actually gives you at least some choice while the previous one gave you none, so be happy and shut up!”
-> My answer is thank goodness we have stuff like elective mode in skill choices, because this is the exact same situation. You have skills split into categories, I guess because the majority of the players are “alieni juris” and expected to make dumb decisions like putting just resource spenders in their build and wondering why they get the “skill is not ready” message all the time.

Imagine if there was no elective mode after you unlock all skills and runes. How would that make you feel? The important thing to mention here is that there are no wrong decisions to be made when adding paragon points (unless you´re forced to spend points where you don´t want to) unlike skills where beginners may mess up their resource management to the point of being unable to play the game. But even then, I´d automatically apply elective mode once you achieve max level (60 or 70). Also, those players who achieved max level and who are actually paragon leveling should be expected to know a thing or two about how the game works, not the opposite.

How to improve the system - what I would like to see.
1. Paragon points can be spent in whatever stat you want.
2. Include more options to spend your points in.
3. Consider eliminating point caps on paragon stats and implement diminishing returns like “Dexterity to Dodge Chance”
4. Paragon curve does not have to be so steep right away when there are more options (stats) to put points in and if putting more points to a certain stats after a threshold gives diminishing returns.
5. Tie the paragon system to adventuring, not just mindless exp farming:
a) unlock some of the stats to put points in based on certain quests or adventuring achievements;
b) increase the cap of certain stats based on quests or adventuring achievements.
6. Instead of “inventory details”, display all our stats in the paragon system window to instantly reflect point distribution effects in ourr stats. Note that there are still quite many important stats missing from Inventory Details and the player has to keep track and calculate those himself (in bold).

1. Strength (primary attribute depending on class)
2. Attack Speed
3. Critical Hit Chance
4. Critical Hit Damage
-> additional stats to put paragon points in:
5. Damage bonus vs monster type - Demons, Undead, Beasts, Humanoids
6. Damage bonus vs Elites
7. Elemental skill bonus
8. Elemental (weapon) damage bonus

9. Thorns damage bonus
10. CC on hit chance - Knockback, Immobilize, Slow, Chill, Freeze, Blind, Stun, Fear
11. +Minimum Damage
12. +Maximum Damage

1. Dexterity
2. Intelligence
3. Vitality
4. Life
5. Armor
6. Resist All
7. Dodge Chance
-> Additional stats to put paragon points in:
8. Crowd Control reduction
9. Melee damage reduction
10. Ranged damage reduction
11. Elite damage reduction
12. Single elemental resistance - Physical, Fire, Cold, Lightning, Arcane/Holy, Poison
1. Movement Speed
2. Cooldown reduction
3. Max Resource
4. Resource Generation
5. Gold Pickup Radius
6. Magic Find (Gold Find)
-> Additional stats to put paragon points in:
7. Health Globe healing bonus
8. Life on Hit
9. Life Steal (Life per Resource Spent)
10. Life Regeneration
11. Reduced resource cost of skills
12. Experience bonus

Core attribute issue: Each player will put points into primary attribute and/or vitality and ignore the other two stats.
Solution: Give certain underused skills a bonus based on those two stats to give players an option to put points into them if they decided to improve those particular skills. This approach would also help underused skills to be more viable beside just flat damage buffs.
-> Furious Charge gains an additional damage bonus based on your Dexterity.
-> Threatening Shout´s cooldown is reduced by 1 sec for every 150 Intelligence points you have.
-> The Ancients gain 1% attack speed for every 100 Dexterity points.
-> Ignore Pain grants you CC immunity for 1 second for each 100 Intelligence points etc.


I´d be really thankful if we got another dev post about their philosophy behind this splitting system in particular. Don´t get me wrong, the paragon 2.0 overhaul is looking mighty fine so far, props to that and keep up the good work, but that "one-point-per-category-per-paragon-level" part seems very restrictive to the majority.
09/24/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Trogdoroth
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

I can't say I dislike the system but it seems boring to me because it is fairly passive. All the stats, for the most part, won't change how you play. What I would like to see is being able to put points into specific abilities/runes. Doing something like this correctly could make underused skills/runes much more compelling. It should be things more interesting than just flat damage or healing increases too. Some should have duration increases, resource cost changes, cooldown reductions.

On top of that you could also put them into a sort of weapon proficiency. It could do things like increase the damage or attack speed of weapons. Maybe even invest some into the new elemental weapon damage effects.

This would allow players to be able to find different synergies as they level their paragon.

Agreed, please consider this. The current system is really boring and uninspired, it has no impact on how we play.
"Forcing heroes to choose a stat out of a limited list chosen by you in a category chosen by you is the same thing as forcing a vegetarian to choose a condiment for the burger you're making them eat for dinner." - Godric

I know that's a little dramatic but it's a pretty close analogy. People are different and have different tastes and styles and directions they want to go in and things they want to focus on.

Don't force them to choose things they don't want to and call it freedom of choice. It doesn't promote build diversity at all. It doesn't even encourage pLvling that much. The amount of time invested to gain stats you probably don't want for your build (obviously you still benefit from any stat, it's not going to hurt you to choose any of them) is kind of discouraging and frustrating to deal with.

Right now the game has several basic builds that classes' skills naturally promote - Overall you basically have only Tanks and DPS in slight variations, some focus more on CC while others focus more on single target dmg while others focus on AoE, while others balance between all of the above. I wish there more build variations than that but that's basically it.

So logically, you want to create a system that SYNERGIZES with the rest of the game that you made. Paragon 2.0 shouldn't butt heads with the way you designed the rest of the game, but currently it does. Again, let me reiterate, none of the current stat options are bad, but the problem lies in heroes not having Choice.

Let's break it down-a
  • 1) If you want to play a tank, first you pick a class that has tankiness.
  • 2) Next, choose your skills and runes to focus on being a tank. Oh look, plenty of those. Awesome.
  • 3) Currently the next step is go to the AH and buy all your gear. Cool, lots of tanky stats like life on hit and lifesteal and armor and stuff. Now I feel tanky! What's next?
  • 4) Level up your paragon level. Wait what? I am being forced to choose stats I don't need? This doesn't make sense with ANYTHING else so far. If Blizzard designed my class to be tanky and made items with tanky things, then why in the world are they forcing me to choose offensive and utility stats when all I really need is vit from the core stats and all of the stats from the defensive (but preferably several others not listed)
  • 5) Man up and choose your condiment for your burger that Blizzard is making you eat even though you're a vegetarian and they tricked you into thinking vegetarian was really an option. 400 unneccessary burgers later, you finally capped out all your burger-eating so now you can FINALLY have the freedom to only invest in stats you need. However, you have no self-respect left and live in regret for the rest of your life for having just eaten 400 burgers that were completely against all of your standards just so that you could get the 400 stats you "needed" (out of the very few options available)
  • That's all I really have to say. It's just kind of counter-intuitive to not let people choose what they want to choose. If they want to have a balanced class and choose 50 pts in every single stat, they can go right ahead, but they shouldnt HAVE to like you're making everyone do. At the end of the day, we'll all be the same.
    09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
    So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

    i dont dislike it, its really great and i like the "shared levels" espeacially.
    but i look forward and i see myself missing a real goal.
    as a casual, in d3 i will reach paragon 100, no matter how long it will take, but i have the goal and it motivates me to log in whenever i have a few hours time to play.
    d2 was a casual game, and a big mistake of d3 at launch was, to make a game for absolutely lifeless people farming 24/7 for the rest of their life. what was the average age of players on launch? 25? i guess something like that, i was 12 when i played d2, and i'm 24 now...
    in d2 it was not a ultimate challenge to become 99 for those lifeless people. also getting a "perfect" hammerdin with enigma was not really hard for them.
    it was not easy but possible - even for casuals you could do 99 in a single season if you focus on that charakter. same i see in the actual paragon at 1.08. loot sucks but leveling is still fun and i know i can do it one day to 100.
    i never made it to enigma and never to 99 since 1.10
    i was very close every ladder season and i loved the goal to maybe do it this time.
    in future of paragon 2.0 i see myself doing some endgame, gearing up a bit for higher mp's, and when my charakter reaches a point where a single level takes long time, i hardly get a new gear upgrade i see me stopping to play that charakter or the game in generally till next season, because leveling is no longer a goal, it is endless and with it pointless, since a single level grants to less bonuses, i would need to do hundreds of them.
    so the point with the new paragon is, a single level grants absolutely nothing (+5 to int? .2 cc? srsly?) and there is no cap, i need hundreds of levels.
    you made paragon for those players who are in a state, where a new item upgrade takes long time and there is no increase for a while, but leveling shall be motivating, climbing up to 100 shall be motivating. guess what - it did! now it does no longer do so.

    i played WoW every now and then, but i'm very bored since i have not the time to do progress PVE or PVP. WoW is for those people having no life. d2 was absolute completeable.
    i loved d2 becouse it took not too much time.
    i am 24 and i bet most of d3 players are 20+
    i would like to have a statistic of the average paragon level of players in d3, counting the highest of every player.
    most players are casuals, suck it. you got WoW for your "nerds" and even there the "pro's" get bored after the first weeks of a new content. these people shall get a life, most people don't play 24/7. so stop desinging games for those 0.01% of people that flame the forums because they are bored. they are bored from life generelly.

    the levels shall have a cap and with it you can implement a new ladder system, and you solved the problem of bored people.
    if it takes 1 month for the uber pro's to reach cap and 3-4 month for normal players to reach cap while casuals only get close to that and you reset ladder every 6 month's, you have a system for everyone. and a real race to the top of the ladder.
    i saw my whole friend list stop playing d3 because of that nerd desing, they expected a game for old d2 players, not a new "hack'n slash world of warcraft" made for hopless teens.
    I´d be really thankful if we got another dev post about their philosophy behind this splitting system in particular. Don´t get me wrong, the paragon 2.0 overhaul is looking mighty fine so far, props to that and keep up the good work, but that "one-point-per-category-per-paragon-level" part seems very restrictive to the majority.


    So far I've heard everyone say the assumption for the forced spending in split catergories is so peeps can't max cc/cd/ias, which seems possible... but I want to hear it from the source.

    Also, everything else Mr. Nubtro suggested about additional options to invest in seems AWESOME! A more robust list of options to invest in seems necessary to me for a few reasons.

    1) at the higher para-lvls (ie 800+) not everyone's toon will be identical.

    2) Since it sounds like we will be able to respec relatively freely this opens up tons of experimentation. I'm drooling over even a remote possibiltiy to play with some of my favorite affixes that NEVER seem to roll high enough or frequently enough on drops. (ie- bleed chance/dmg, life regen, life per resource spent, crowd control chance such as freeze, immobilize, blind, slow, fear, etc.) Gimme gimme gimme!

    3) I think that having a ton of options would help curb some of the appeal away from the predictable damage trifecta
    I really like the idea behind paragon 2.0. I am totally fine with having the core attributes be unlimited and having a cap on the others. My only issue is with the mandatory allocation per level. I feel we should be able to allocate our paragon points where ever we want and not have it tied to what paragon level we are at. If I want to put my first 25 paragon points into attack speed then I should be able to do so. I should only be limited to whatever the cap is. I shouldn't be stuck only increasing attack speed say every 3rd paragon level.
    I'm going to play the devils advocate here and say I like the idea of point allocation restrictions. Restriction can breed creativity but only under the right circumstances. In this case, I propose a system that combines aspects from the current paragon system and paragon 2.0:

    Continue to increase stats per paragon level (just how it happens now) and allow the paragon points be used to increase the power of skills. This is where a limitation would make more sense. You can get a point every level, ever other level, have the cost to increase the power or ability of a skill or piece of gear increase as you go (1 point for the first update, 3 points for the next, 7 for the one after etc...) whatever you want.

    This seems like it could be a compromise between what the players want (each level mean some sort of useful stat increase) and what blizzard is proposing.

    Honestly, there is no harm with limitations. It seems the community is mostly upset with where those restrictions are being applied. We would be forced to apply points to something we wouldn't care about increasing. Or just let the points sit and rot?
    The restriction that can breed creativity is already in place, you're restricted on the amount of points you have.

    The arbitrary second level of restriction won't breed jack, it is so unnatural that it will only put people off the entire thing. It stifles creativity instead of encouraging it.

    You can only really be creative once you've got (just an example, but if your creative spec requires X points to one stat, with this system you need to grind to 4X points getting irrelevant stats along the way) 400 points in this system, instead of 100. That's how many you'll need to maximize 2 paragon stats (eg crit, critdmg which go hand in hand). A build relying on those will be gimped until para400 and I guarantee you this won't give you a warm, fuzzy feeling deep inside.

    Instead of offering only a few bland stats without any synergies to skills I'd like them to really develop the class skills through paragon along with some flat core stat bonuses (how about offstats doing something nice for a change? paragon seems the ideal place to do that, if we're talking creativity here - int giving a bonus to barb shouts for example, or dex making your more dexterous moves - maybe leap and sprint and the like? - more effective)

    If paragon is supposed to be farmed forever, why not make it interesting? A paragon5000 character will be absolutely unkillable anyway if you allow the core stats to remain uncapped, but perhaps by offering other bonuses he won't go for that. And you can still tune the paragon stats so that gear is always no1 priority anyway - current implementation fails on that front.
    Really looking for more information before I decide if I like this...
    09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
    So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

    For me, it's simply no longer having the choice.

    D3 took away the ability for us to decide where to spend our level up stats.

    The current planning for Paragon 2.0 now takes away the ability to freely assign these paragon points.

    To my line of thinking Lylirra, the burden of proof should be on the Devs to show why restricting player choice is a good thing, and I have yet to seem them do that.
    Also, some more information from Travis. I'll be sure to add it to the compiled list in just a bit:

    09/23/2013 03:51 PMPosted by Travis Day
    Paragon experience is only earned when you are playing a character who is max level. If you are level 60 and paragon 100, when the expansion launches you will continue earning paragon experience in the new system. Once you have the expansion enabled your experience earned will take you from level 60-70 at which point it will again be added to your paragon level instead of character level.

    For clarity (since I saw some confusion in the other thread):

    - After Paragon 2.0 goes live, if you are level 60 and do not have the expansion enabled on your account, you will continue to earn Paragon experience in the new system. This is because you are still technically at the level cap.

    - However, if you are level 60 and decide to enable the expansion on your account, you will stop earning Paragon experience. This is because the expansion increases the level cap to 70. Once you reach level 70, you will start to accrue Paragon experience again from where you left off.

    So, basically: Only max-level characters will be able to earn Paragon experience. If you don't have the expansion, max-level = 60. If you have the expansion, max-level = 70.

    Paragon 2.0 should focus on some sort of way to upgrade your skills... maybe in addition to have freely chooseable stats.

    I'm not really sure how you could do it and balance it, it would be just as hard as your current system. Will probably take months now and then continue for months after release.

    But the main thing is, right now, there is a large lack of hero-individuality. By the time you're lvl 60, the only thing that differentiates you from the next guy (apart from gear) is the restriction on skills to only have 6 choices. So obviously there are plenty of unique combinations - but ANYONE can swap to any combination at anytime.

    That's not a bad thing. I'm against elitist restrictions and pro-casual.

    However, as like 50% of the posts in this thread suggest, apart from removing the categories and just letting us choose the stats we want each level, there is a very large demand for some way to augment your skills further.

    how you would implement this, I don't know. There are literally thousands of potential ways. But obviously it would end up becoming the kind of things that you're trying to achieve in small doses through your new 2.0 Legendaries (such as the ability to have a 2nd hydra out etc.). Although essentially you only get what your gear gives you so unless you have some sort of skill-modifiying thing on EVERY piece, you're not gonna see too much.

    In a way to not compete with the new 2.0 legendary awesome-ability-modifiying-stats, there should be a way to modify skills that's kind of inbetween the totally-skill-changing Runes/Legendaries mods and regular item stats (chc, cd, as, etc) -

    such as

    +explosion radius
    +cooldown reduction
    +targets hit in a chain
    +skill damage
    +knockback distance
    +extra summons
    +summons more hp/dmg/abilities


    The d2:lod synergy system was amazing. It ended up making builds slightly more confined if you wanted to be the best, but things along those same lines are awesome. Like if you could do a stat that increased the AoE range of all your abilities - this might only affect 2 out of 6 abilities on your skill bar, but those two abilities might eventually have +30 feet to their radius.


    It makes you feel like the true super hero you are, and it actually makes sense that someone that badass would be able to defeat Diablo and the Angel of Death... you know?
    We're still working out some of the finer details regarding Paragon 2.0, but our intention is to remove the cap on Paragon levels, so after Paragon 2.0 is implemented, you can continue playing and leveling up your Barbarian if that's what suits you. In the meantime, the highest amount of "stored" Paragon experience you can have for one character is the current cap, which is Paragon level 100.

    so basicly the paragon 2.0 is all about adding a "grind" to diablo3 as end-game? for people to stay busy and have something to look forward to while trying to find that elusive item?
    I think a better setup in regards to the cap in the 3 of 4 categories and the weird robin robin point allocation would be to place a soft cap on the skills in the 3 groups.

    For example, lets say CC has a soft cap of 50 points that you can allocate. The first 50 points you allocate into CC gives you .2% CC per point, for 10% CC for 50 points. If a person decides to still dump points into CC, you can still do so, but at diminishing returns. Let's say the returns on point allocation halves every 50 points. So if I dump another 50 points into CC, I'll only get another additional 5% CC. I really, really like CC, so I decide to dump another 50 points into CC and get another 2.5% CC.

    In conclusion, I have spent 150 points on CC for a 17.5% increase. With the diminishing returns, you will be better off investing your points somewhere else eventually, but the choice is there to build your character how ever you want. The core stats will always remain uncapped, the other stats will have a soft cap with diminishing returns, and it will be up to the players to decide where to allocate their points. You can allocate every point you receive into any category you desire and with the diminishing returns, you will never see someone with 100% CC for example.

    Final thought: This setup will go a long way in improving build diversity and making a wider range of gear appealing to different people, depending on how you've allocated your paragon points. No one person will have the same allocation, even at P800.
    Right now we gain bonus core stat, gold find, and magic find for each character gaining paragon levels. If my character is P100, that's 300 main stat gained on that character.

    Question is, with paragon 2.0 moving account wide and bonus replaced with distributable points, what happens with the bonus we already gained for each character? Are these bonus stats being removed?
    09/25/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Noble
    Question is, with paragon 2.0 moving account wide and bonus replaced with distributable points, what happens with the bonus we already gained for each character? Are these bonus stats being removed?

    i think thety will be because then u have the points to add
    its like if you would pay 1 cookie and got 2 in return (was thinking of cookie clicker )

    Thanks for all the posts! I'll make sure the feedback gets passed on. :)

    In the meantime, please feel free to continue to share your thoughts and suggestions. Although all the details for Paragon 2.0 have not been finalized and you've yet to get your hands on the system in game, even theoretical discussions like this are valued. As we reveal more about Paragon 2.0, we certainly anticipate (and encourage) more feedback too.

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