[Guide] Wizard AH3 for Better or Worse

Wizard
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+1 for flomax

Bump with edits/adds

Hopefully someone got some use out of this
find something you know the value of. make all the money you can on that item. move on.
Loving the game theory/philosophy/ethics/morality/economic model discussion going on here. I think if we can somehow work cats and then possibly sexuality into the debate (see rule #34) then we will have won the internet.

Q: How many other places can we roll all of those theories up together (and discuss them more rationally than most undergrad students do) along with AH3?

A: Only here on the DIII Wizard forum folks - only here :)

I think the prisoner’s dilemma (PD) is probably most applicable model as suggested above. Although contrary to what was said by someone else - playing the AH is indeed a non-cooperative game. (In the game theory sense of the word.) Indeed, all of DIII would be considered a non-cooperative game by game theory rules. That doesn't mean that it's not in player’s best interest to cooperate with each other - but it isn't always possible – it’s not in every individuals rational self-interest. (This is not Nash sub-game perfect.) Whenever you’re choosing to bid/no-bid/buy on the AH – you are the only individual that can make that decision.

Although I'm having a hard time trying to follow the argument that flipping is a negative for the community and is therefore somehow “bad” – let’s go with that for a minute.

If we assume that collectively spending less money/gold on DIII would be considered “good”, then it follows that we'd be better off collectively if no one ever spent money/gold on the AH. From a collective benefit point of view – every time someone got a new better drop, if they could just pass along the piece it replaced to the next player that needed (without cost) we’d all benefit. In theory we'd all benefit from every gain in resources. There would be no need for an AH at all, just a big collective stash in sky where everyone could drop & take what was needed, free of charge. We'd all progress the fastest doing that way, right?

But obviously that doesn't work. In prisoner’s dilemma theory crafting any sort of altruistic algorithm gets stomped by more self-interest algorithms. In this scenario we’d get some sub-set of the population that wasn’t interested in collective benefit – only self-benefit. They’d quickly take up all the resources for themselves. And that’s what we’re seeing on the AH today. (Hmm, sounds like the tragedy of the commons dilemma – google it) We can all regret that the collective community is unable to make the most collectively group beneficial decisions. But this is very predictable self-interest behavior. Does anyone really think that with a community this large there wouldn’t be people trying to get more benefit for themselves, even if it does mean less benefit for the community?

So now that we recognize that individuals will exercise self-interest over collective interest, at least some of the time, and now that we recognize some of the problems with the tragedy of the commons - we recognize that we need to put some sort of rules or policing action in place to allow for “fair use” or “fair trade”.

Personally, if I was in charge of setting up those rules and policing action for the DIII community, I would have done differently. But oddly enough (geez, I know, right?) Blizzard did not ask my opinion on this, and they probably didn’t ask yours either. So instead of whatever fuxed up system any of us would have developed on our own – we have AH3 in all its GAH/RMAH/Flipping glory.

So now what?

All game theory, including all the various AH behavior and algorithms being discussed, are well established models of human behavior (along with all the deviations thereof). If you don’t understand it, I’d suggest a few philosophy courses. If that still doesn’t explain it to you – I donno, maybe finish high school or hope someone smarter than you invents an IQ raising pill?

But again let’s assume that you understand basic human behavior. What do you do to make rational decisions based on that? What do you do to avoid being shamelessly taken advantage of in DIII? You read the OP’s guide.
^ +3 if you cooperate, +1 if you defect.

Very nicely written, Mage.

Above I claimed the AH was competitive. I meant this in two senses, though not the one you rejected.

1) items in the AH can only go to one person. This leads to tactics such as waiting till the last second to bid or not bidding, hoping the seller drops the price.

2) many people would be satisfied with X gear if they believed that it was gg. Part of the reason players tend to seek out better gear is because if the knowledge it exists. We all (most) seek to obtain the best possible gear.

But yes, I agree that the AH as a medium if exchange is not itself a competitive vessel.
Thanks - love the philosophical arguments that you, Flo and a few others have brought into this discussion. Without that it'd just be another Uh-huh/Nuh-uh/You're Mom! discussion.

But for cooperate/defect - the proven best algorithm for PD is Tit for Tat with 2% forgiveness (IIRC - college was a long time ago for some of us).
^ yup. :)

For humans who believe each other to be similar enough cooperation will prove to be the best outcome, as i understand it.
Great read guys. I made my char from flipping as well, but not nearly to the elvel you guys do. Total profits, maybe 1.5b overall? Never quite reached the 1b per item level for flipping (max buyout was 200M) as I kept spending my bankroll on my character :)
I just got this as a drop tonight:

http://i.imgur.com/tebDiuS.jpg

With a Marquise Ruby, it should be around 1343 DPS.

And according to:

http://www.diabloprogress.com/items/us/?class=all&slot=all&item_name=shenlong%27s+fist+of+legend

This drop should rank in the top 5 on the server.

I'm going to sell it for cash money. Am I a bad person?
________________________________________________
Diablo III MVP | Forever a Wizard
Archon Video Guide: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9793089550
YouTube Channel: http://youtube.com/Jae7ch
Twitter: @Jaetch
Evil personified. Just give it to wired I'm sure he'll pass it off and not sell it when he's done. We are one big happy collective family.
01/13/2014 10:32 PMPosted by Aimless
We are one big happy collective family.


That will only be true on March 18th, when no further exploitation of novice players and abuse of broken game mechanics will be possible, thankfully.

THEN we can all be united in our quest to slay the demon horde and seek out upgrades together - not rip one another off and sell only to the highest bidder, regardless of need.
Wired, this game is not about making sure every single person has identical stats. To carry out your philosophy to its ultimate conclusion, everyone should use the same class, have the same ping, get the same drops, play at the same time.. etc. In what way is selling a damn good item for LESS then its market price "eploitation of novice players"? And how is it "abuse"? Jaetch is selling his fist for way less than he can. Are you saying he should just give it away? Why?

Please enlighten me: in what way does anybody need any item in this game? We are not talking about food or shelter or water. We are taking about pixels. No one needs any. There can therefore not possibly be any moral obligation to give away things in Diablo.

It seems like you have either not read, not understood, or simply chose to not respond to any of the arguments made here. If you want to turn around now and say "I can't believe how *insert hyperbole here* some people are, I'm done with this thread", go for it, but it will be disappointing. Instead, I greatly prefer if you can actually engage with the points made above. If you just dropped the 5th best shenlongs in your server, what would you do?

In particular, I'd love a response to mage's excellent summary of game-theory applied to the AH.
That will only be true on March 18th, when no further exploitation of novice players and abuse of broken game mechanics will be possible, thankfully.

THEN we can all be united in our quest to slay the demon horde and seek out upgrades together - not rip one another off and sell only to the highest bidder, regardless of need.


Normally I respond to you with some sort of logic sequence - you typically ignore my responses because I believe you have no system in your tiny little head for debate. You strike me as the kind of person who uses the phrase, "Cuz I said so!" regularly.

I promise you, with 100% certainty, that your prediction above is about as realistic as the tooth fairy. If you actually believe there is a way of keeping capitalism out of this game, to keep personal profitability out of this game, and to keep people from garnering advantages, fiscally driven advantages, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
DFTT, people. DFTT.
Thought I just share something I did in the past when I had only a million gold. Was wondering if anyone did it before.

1. Bid for every level 60 rare items available in AH.
2. End up with ~300 rares each night
3. Salvaged all for materials and brimstones, which has a 1% chance of appearing,
4. Sell materials for higher than the price incurred from rare items
5. Sell gems that were socket-ed in the rares.
6. Rinse and repeat every night

I didn't last long till the work involved for this method; Boozor's method of flipping gf items seem like a much better idea than mine -.-
@ spyky

I didn't do your method exactly, but yes when I was starting out around 1m or less capital.

I would pick up everything and salvage them for pieces and sell the pieces for more then the price of vendoring.

At the time materials were worth more so it was worth it to use this method.

Also gear was worth less gold before, 6cc mempos for 1b or less and gold would go farther.

Now not the same anymore... But good mention.

I still salvage my gear instead of vendoring out of habit.
01/14/2014 04:04 AMPosted by Wired
01/13/2014 10:32 PMPosted by Aimless
We are one big happy collective family.


That will only be true on March 18th, when no further exploitation of novice players and abuse of broken game mechanics will be possible, thankfully.

THEN we can all be united in our quest to slay the demon horde and seek out upgrades together - not rip one another off and sell only to the highest bidder, regardless of need.


I think everyone is missing your point save 1 or 2, so pointless to argue further, we're coming full circle to the same song and dance.

Having said that, we really need to rescue you from that Ivory Tower
I'm guessing Boozer is the King of the Wizard AH?

How good is an Occulus with:

263 avg damage
263 Int
9% Crit Change
10 Arcane Power on Crit
3% Damage to Elites
Teleport CD reduced by 1 sec
13% Shock Pulse Damage

?
I'm not Boozor.

But I can tell you that's not worth a lot.

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