ww is toooooooo weak

Barbarian
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Why not just allow the player to select which damage type they want for that particular skill?
The ww is the barbarian's most famous skill since previous games. The ww now is the worst skill to use...
04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


That philosophy must also explain why Cluster Arrow hits for 70 million!

It must be a single target ability!
I'm using a HOTA (4pc IK) build which has HOTAfire has main attack and WWfire as secondary. WW is still great at getting out of !@#$, imo better than leap or charge because the output is still big. I can also use it when I need a small boost in LOH heals.

I used to use it as a primary, and yeah, it's dmg is low - nonetheless it's not a useless skill, at all.

I've been using Ground Stomp to pull in packs of mobs lately for HOTA, and I find it's very smooth pulling them in, then using WW to get to one side of them, then smash them all with HOTA. Leap is too slow for that, charge too annoying. WW is perfect for it and maintains fire dps while I use it. With my setup, it also gains fury even if I hit one mob with it - so if my COTA is spazzing out I can still do damage and gain Fury without having a 'fury builder' on my bars at all.
04/21/2014 07:36 PMPosted by Uberjager
That philosophy must also explain why Cluster Arrow hits for 70 million!

It must be a single target ability!


HAH, LOL at this... I just figured out the 'trick' with my belt and my crappy DH is getting 30M now :-) EZPZ

I don't care WHAT blue says; WW desperately needs a buff!!
Hi Blue,

I am a Wizard, DH and Baba User. The damage itself on WW is low to being with compare to the other Class.

I do think that Blizzard should take a time to re-look at WW and it stats, we are actually not looking at too high a damage, but a buff of 40% to 50% will be ideal. The current Damage %% is darn too low.
My problem with Blizzard's logic on "AoE" skills versus "single target" skills (using the comparison of ancient spear vs. WW) is that ancient spear still performs VERY well in AoE situations. Sure, it takes a modicum of effort to position yourself in way that ancient spear hits as many monsters as possible but it absolutely BLOWS WW out of the water in both AoE and single target situations.

The point is that you can't really classify a skill like ancient spear as "single target" when it clearly performs well as an AoE ability (while WW is absolute garbage in both situations comparatively). I never had a SoH but after Blizzard nerfed the weapon, I decided to switch to a ranged ancient spear build and my rift clear times more than doubled compared to my old lightning WW build (which I had excellent gear for).

It's really tragic because WW is one of the most fun abilities barbs have IMO but I never see any barbs running T4+ using WW because it is so clearly inferior to other abilities. SoH was the only thing that made WW viable in higher torment and even Alkaizer said on stream today, "I will probably never use SoH/WW again unless Blizzard makes significant changes to it."

I don't think WW needs a HUGE buff, but it really does need some love to get its damage to a viable level so barbs don't instantly dismiss it in favor of "single target" abilities that hit so much harder in every situation.
04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


blue thanks for your reply, basically what we want is not wanting ww to face roll, but at least a viable build for t6, which is same as eq these all. you encourage us to do build diversify, but the ww current dps is really too dismay. anything from t4 onwards in group, u can really barely see the elite life going down. buffing weapon damamge in ww is pointless, the real cure is up the proc rate!
give us things to play with, like example odyn and tf, can let us proc more these all.
fyi my cleave clear faster ww, so it is not about single target or what.
fact is ww is too broken atm, with the overly exercise nerf.
barb is still good to go t6, but please take alook at this particular ww build which most player favour. we can do t6 with other build, but why force us to forsake ww
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.


So what you're saying is that people would be idiots to spend hundreds of forgotten souls and tens of millions in gold not to mention the other mat costs using the mystic to gear for specific skill/element sets, and that they shouldn't trash ANY legendary because who knows what their skill combo of choice is going to be using in the future?!

What about the people who already invested tons of time/resources into finding AND fixing (notice I don't call it improving) those pieces of gear?

Why don't you just let people choose what element they want the skill to use and be done with it; rather than screwing people over midstream when there was plenty of time to warn people OR make the adjustments in beta/open test OR delay the release of RoS.
04/21/2014 08:38 PMPosted by Sududan
Why don't you just let people choose what element they want the skill to use and be done with it

That defeats the purpose entirely.

Though, I kinda wish the +element damage bonus was never added to the game. Now you actually feel locked into playing a certain element. This completely goes against their original philosophy of D3's skill design, being able to choose whatever skills you wanted without feeling punished. They might as well have used the old D2 tree style skill system if they were going to go this direction.
No offense, but this issue is a little out of your depth Nev. Let a professional developer respond please. Proc Coefficients are terrible, tornado damage is too low in addition.
Whatever happened to ALL specs are viable to use at ANY difficulty?
Now Blizzard will nerf fire into oblivion thanks to your QQ. DH will be unplayable.

Thanks.
Using WW for mobility is absurd. You have other options! I actually still use WW even though the damage is poor. People weren't happy until Shard of Hate was nerfed now look at it. It does maybe 1/3 of the damage is use to. Shard actually made WW perform the way it's suppose to. So for now I'm basically a meat head and it's not much fun.
meh...
WW is fine. It's Sprint + RLTW that needs to be buffed. Since BR + ITF was removed, Sprint + RLTW should get some loving to allow WW barbs to generate decent fury even with single targets.

Removing the ability for infinite WotB was all you needed to do in the first place, to keep us barbs in check and stop other classes from crying in their sleep. Give us decent fury generation without having to use 2 passive slots (unforgiving and superstition) and 2 runes (windsheer and momentum). We're used to not having permawrath now. Permalowfury is not a good idea.
04/21/2014 11:29 PMPosted by MasterPUA
WW is fine. It's Sprint + RLTW that needs to be buffed. Since BR + ITF was removed, Sprint + RLTW should get some loving to allow WW barbs to generate decent fury even with single targets.


WW isn't fine the proc rates need to be adjusted.
I think WW 's problem is "movement speed" but not damage at all.

It is not a good skill to contirbute single targeted damage but a good skill to run away from danger and move to a right postion for next attack. Low damage is expected but low movement speed is unaccepable.
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire.


This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.

So now that we optimized entire equipment around a build and an element, you plan to shift things around ?
Seems to me that's the worst idea you could come up with for balacing different elements, I hope all those changes will be very carefully considered...
04/22/2014 12:07 AMPosted by Bloodstorm
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
...

This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.

So now that we optimized entire equipment around a build and an element, you plan to shift things around ?
Seems to me that's the worst idea you could come up with for balacing different elements, I hope all those changes will be very carefully considered...


oh boy not again

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