04/22/2014 07:27 AMPosted by EMLagzHere's the post similar to the one OP brought up. Some of us from here including myself talked about this before if any of u guys r interested.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12504570873?page=1

Yeah we have these threads pop up all the time, it always ends up being full of subjective things like 'X

*feels*better for me' or statements without any backing like 'DW is better because 130 CHD, why? Just because.' There were some good points in that thread.

At the end of the day you need to look at what your stat sheet is telling you and make informed decisions. And there are all kinds of factors not related to direct DPS that come into play, like Iria pointing out how slow 2h's are more hatred efficient, which is especially important for a build like CA.

I have the Danetta's combo with around 2500 dps on each, and a 2500 dps Kridershot that I use with a rare quiver with 15% attack spd, 10% crit, and 15% cluster arrow.

The Kridershot + Quiver is much more effective in sustained damage output and killing speed over the Danetta's.

However I have not tested One Danetta + the quiver just yet.

04/21/2014 08:35 PMPosted by VocaloidNyanon my alt DH, I DW for calamity MfD and nat's 3 or 4pc. Otherwise I probably wouldn't~

This is what I gain from DW as well. It's pretty potent. But unlike Nyan, I'd DW regardless. :)

Yeah we have these threads pop up all the time, it always ends up being full of subjective things like 'Xfeelsbetter for me' or statements without any backing like 'DW is better because 130 CHD, why? Just because.'

At the end of the day you need to look at what your stat sheet is telling you and make informed decisions. And there are all kinds of factors not related to direct DPS that come into play, like Iria pointing out how slow 2h's are more hatred efficient, which is especially important for a build like CA.

For me, Dual-wielding yields me more paper DPS. I have a pretty respectable deadman's with 10% CC in my stash and if i switch it out, I lose dps. I think you have to look at where you spec your paragon points too, between crit chance and crit damage. If you use the deadmans which gives you more crit%, you need to focus on crit damage in your paragon. If you go dual-wield for the crit damage, you need to focus on crit chance in your paragon. For me right now, I get more damage out of the 130% CHD than i do from the 10% crit chance that the deadmans can provide.

I guess I need to find me a good quiver.......cause it is not outperforming my 2 guns.

If i ever come across a krider or calamity even, i'd gladly break up my danetta set. BUt until then i'll be vaulting all over the place.

04/22/2014 10:29 AMPosted by dawgiestyleI guess I need to find me a good quiver.......cause it is not outperforming my 2 guns.

Your xbows are within 100dmg of each other which helps a lot. DW really is NOT ideal when the dmg differential is larger than that. You will want a quiver with 700+ Dex, CHC 9+, IAS 19+, CA Dmg > that's the quiver that allows quivers to typically outshine DW performance.

125% CD > 10% CC

04/22/2014 10:50 AMPosted by CrazyKodaI have a decent sin seeker quiver in stash, but have yet to find a decent 2h bow. On the other hand i ahve the danetta's set, and i do like the utility it provides. Unlimited vaulting is great to have, and it's fun to vault through a champ to pick up a globe and then nuke them to bits.

If i ever come across a krider or calamity even, i'd gladly break up my danetta set. BUt until then i'll be vaulting all over the place.

That's what happened to me, I was using Danetta's and wanting a Kridershot but Calamity dropped so I broke up my Danetta set and I'm pretty happy.

Having said that, I do bounties on expert for the speed and I still use Danetta's when doing bounties. When I do rifts I switch back to the Calamity.

I'd still like a Kridershot to play around with different builds but I'd much rather have a Nat's Slayer now, have a RoRG in the bank and Nat's boots so I could get the 3 piece.

some people just like to do slower runs.

I thought it was for the increased crit damage for larger CA's

04/22/2014 05:44 PMPosted by bladesI thought it was for the increased crit damage for larger CA's

It's increased crit damage over 1h + quiver for sure, but compared to 2h + quiver? If all you want is to see the biggest number possible, I'm pretty sure 2h + quiver will produce larger crits than dual wielding.

Also, a crit number alone is meaningless without the rest of your stats for context. For example, a 1h + quiver setup might crit at 30m damage @ 2 attacks per second, while a 2h + quiver setup might crit at 60m damage @ 1 attack per second, the damage per second in both cases is exactly the same. You may see bigger numbers, but you need the entire story to know whether it's actually

*better*or not.

Similarly, dual wield produces bigger crits compared to 1h + quiver - even if both have the same sheet dps - because the trade off for this is that it crits less often and slightly slower (10% less crit and 5% less ias). So you may see bigger numbers occasionally, but your average damage done remains the same.

This is one of the cases where you can trust your sheet dps. Swapping around weapon setups doesn't really muck around with 'invisible' stats that don't factor in, like elemental damage and so on. If it goes up, you're gonna do more damage

*on average*, it's as simple as that.

Dual-wield for style :D

And because I actually never found any legendary quiver at all >_>

And because I actually never found any legendary quiver at all >_>

04/22/2014 06:08 PMPosted by Myon04/22/2014 05:44 PMPosted by bladesI thought it was for the increased crit damage for larger CA's

It's increased crit damage over 1h + quiver for sure, but compared to 2h + quiver? If all you want is to see the biggest number possible, I'm pretty sure 2h + quiver will produce larger crits than dual wielding.

Also, a crit number alone is meaningless without the rest of your stats for context. For example, a 1h + quiver setup might crit at 30m damage @ 2 attacks per second, while a 2h + quiver setup might crit at 60m damage @ 1 attack per second, the damage per second in both cases is exactly the same. You may see bigger numbers, but you need the entire story to know whether it's actuallybetteror not.

Similarly, dual wield produces bigger crits compared to 1h + quiver - even if both have the same sheet dps - because the trade off for this is that it crits less often and slightly slower (10% less crit and 5% less ias). So you may see bigger numbers occasionally, but your average damage done remains the same.

This is one of the cases where you can trust your sheet dps. Swapping around weapon setups doesn't really muck around with 'invisible' stats that don't factor in, like elemental damage and so on. If it goes up, you're gonna do more damageon average, it's as simple as that.

Well, I mean, if you use a 2h and a quiver, that certainly narrows the crit-damage advantage from dual-wielding but it also removes some of your crit-chance advantage as well, since archery no longer gives you that extra 5% crit chance. I'm still of the opinion that dual-wielding will give you the better overall dps, as long as you change your paragon around to compensate.

When you dual-wield, you will have more crit damage, which makes higher crit % more valuable. So you should switch your paragon points into crit %. When you use a 2hander with a quiver, you will have higher crit %, so that makes crit damage more valuable, so you should switch your paragon into crit damage. I've done the shuffle, and for me, dual-wielding gave me a higher sheet dps. And that's not even factoring in the fact that I have the danettas set, which gives me infinite vaults and excellent synergy with haunt of vaxo.

04/22/2014 07:44 PMPosted by LucidityWell, I mean, if you use a 2h and a quiver, that certainly narrows the crit-damage advantage from dual-wielding but it also removes some of your crit-chance advantage as well, since archery no longer gives you that extra 5% crit chance. I'm still of the opinion that dual-wielding will give you the better overall dps, as long as you change your paragon around to compensate.

When you dual-wield, you will have more crit damage, which makes higher crit % more valuable. So you should switch your paragon points into crit %. When you use a 2hander with a quiver, you will have higher crit %, so that makes crit damage more valuable, so you should switch your paragon into crit damage. I've done the shuffle, and for me, dual-wielding gave me a higher sheet dps. And that's not even factoring in the fact that I have the danettas set, which gives me infinite vaults and excellent synergy with haunt of vaxo.

Hm, I wouldn't stop at just saying it

*narrows*the advantage with dual-wielding. Just in terms of the highest single shot crit you can produce, 2h + quiver will

*surpass*the numbers that dual wielding can put out. Also, doesn't Archery give you 1 hatred/sec instead of 5% crit when you dual wield? I wasn't really factoring Archery into any comparison so far, the 10% crit advantage that quiver setups get is purely from the natural crit a quiver can roll.

But anyway as I said, everything is a trade-off, so just a number by itself is meaningless, maybe I can crit for 100m with a 2h but who cares, it doesn't matter. You crit harder but you attack slower, - crit, ias, and chd, you are always dancing around these three stats in the end, and different setups give you varying amounts of each, no setup gets a free lunch.

Your sheet dps will give you an indicator of which combination yields the highest cumulative sum, and then you need to run that through some common sense and your own build specific needs (like your Danetta's example) to find the best setup.

When I was laying out my stats on page 1, I made sure to note that the conclusions were valid for my setup as an example only - if another setup produces better numbers with dual wielding, then certainly dual wielding is the superior choice for DPS in that case, no argument there, there is plenty of room for variance in gearsets.

If anyone takes just one thing away from this thread, it would be don't blindly follow anecdotes like 130% CD > 10% crit as a reason for using one setup or the other - it's an even more useless statement than something like 'I have 1 million sheet dps'.

04/22/2014 07:44 PMPosted by LucidityWell, I mean, if you use a 2h and a quiver, that certainly narrows the crit-damage advantage from dual-wielding but it also removes some of your crit-chance advantage as well, since archery no longer gives you that extra 5% crit chance. I'm still of the opinion that dual-wielding will give you the better overall dps, as long as you change your paragon around to compensate.

When you dual-wield, you will have more crit damage, which makes higher crit % more valuable. So you should switch your paragon points into crit %. When you use a 2hander with a quiver, you will have higher crit %, so that makes crit damage more valuable, so you should switch your paragon into crit damage. I've done the shuffle, and for me, dual-wielding gave me a higher sheet dps. And that's not even factoring in the fact that I have the danettas set, which gives me infinite vaults and excellent synergy with haunt of vaxo.

Hm, I wouldn't stop at just saying itnarrowsthe advantage with dual-wielding. Just in terms of the highest single shot crit you can produce, 2h + quiver willsurpassthe numbers that dual wielding can put out.

Also, doesn't Archery give you 1 hatred/sec instead of 5% crit when you dual wield? I wasn't really factoring Archery into any comparison so far, the 10% crit advantage that quiver setups get is purely from the natural crit a quiver can roll. If you factor Archery into the equation it becomes even more skewed because it provides direct DPS to quiver setups (5% crit / 35% chd vs 1 hatred/sec for dual wield)

But anyway as I said, everything is a trade-off, so just a number by itself is meaningless, maybe you can crit for 100m with a 2h but who cares. You crit harder but you attack slower - crit, ias, and chd, you are always dancing around these three stats in the end, and different setups give you varying amounts of each.

Your sheet dps will give you an indicator of which combination yields the highest cumulative sum, and then you need to run that through some common sense and your own build specific needs to find the best setup.

When I was laying out my stats on page 1, I made sure to note that the conclusions were valid for my setup as an example only - if another setup produces better numbers with dual wielding, then certainly dual wielding is the superior choice for DPS in that case, no argument there, there is plenty of room for variance in gearsets.

If anyone takes just one thing away from this thread, it would be don't blindly follow anecdotes like 130 CD > 10% crit as a reason for using one setup or the other - it's an even more useless statement than something like 'I have 1 million sheet dps'.

You're using some faulty assumptions in this post.

First, lets talk about archery. If you are dual wielding 1h weapons, archery gives you 1) 5% crit chance for the main hand weapon, and 1 hatred/sec for the second bow in the offhand. You will also gain 130% CHD because you get to socket another emerald in your offhand. If you use a 1hander and a quiver, you only get the 5% crit chance, but not the hatred regen.

If you are using a 2hander, lets assume a 2handed crossbow, you get 50% crit hit damage with archery. That's it. You can also get up to 10% crit chance with a quiver, an an extra 5% attack speed with a quiver that maxes out at 20% attack speed. The quiver can also roll some intangibles like modifications to cluster arrow or whatever demon hunter skill you use, but considering how insanely difficult it is to roll whatever skill you use on a quiver, I consider than an intangible and don't factor that into the equation. I'll also exclude other intangible benefits of dual-wielding, such as danettas, natalyas, etc.

So the final comparison of the offensive stats between dual-wielding vs a 2hxbow/quiver comes out to this, assuming you're using archery:

Dual-wielding gets you: 130 CHD. 5 Crit chance.

2hxbow + quiver gets you: 50 CHD. 10 crit chance. Up to 5% additional attack speed, assuming a perfectly rolled quiver.

So the difference between dual-wielding and using a 2hxbow is between 80% CHD and 5% as/5% crit chance. And since we all know that the effectiveness of crit chance and crit damage are dependent upon one another, which set-up gives you more sheet dps is dependent on your current gear. So if you go dual-wield, you will have excess CHD, which means crit chance becomes more valuable. So if you already have high crit chance, the dual-wield path will give you more dps. And if you go 2hbow + quiver, you will have an excess crit chance, which means CHD becomes more valuble. So if you already have high crit damage, the 2h path will give you more dps. It isn't as simple as just saying that one path is always superior to the other.

You can't just say 'oh I'm not going to consider Danetta's so it's fine', it's apples and oranges. Maybe I don't care about mobilty at all (I have spammable ToC with all my reduction anyway, I'm not gonna get outrun by someone with a pair of Danetta's), but I do care about a hard DPS increase from skill bonuses - or vice versa.

I want to reinstate again that I have never once in this thread said one setup is superior to the other, seriously, go read it. In fact I've taken great pains to make sure not to say it, because someone is always going to come and nitpick. I've basically come to the same conclusion as you, some setups produce better numbers with dual wielding, some produce better numbers with a quiver - and this is all down to your existing stat distribution and how it favors complementary stats.

And I did ignore all intangibles, including the intangibles provided by the quiver AND the intangibles provided by dual-wielding in the final comparison -- i only looked at the crit chance/damage provided by both builds. However, if you want to argue intangibles, I can certainly make a strong argument that the intangibles provided by dual-wielding are far superior to that of using a quiver.

The quiver can open up some new viable builds, and can provide a boost to a skill of choice. For example, the ninth ciri quiver allows for some insane single target dps with devouring arrow/buriza, and the bombardier's satchel lets you have 5 sentries. Both are viable builds.

The biggest intangible benefit to dual-wielding can be found in the fact that you can use dual-wielding with sets to great effect. I've already mentioned dual-wielding with Danettas. A demon hunter with danettas is the fastest thing on the ground, period. No one can move around the map faster than a demon hunter with danettas, except for another demon hunter. That is an extremely valuable intangible. To say you "don't care" about an extra 100% move speed is similar to saying you "dont care" about an extra 20 crit chance. Dual-wielding also allows you to create certain interesting combos, the best of which would be natalyas slayer/calamity. The ability to open up your weapon slot for a set bonus, PLUS the ability to amplify all damage by 20%, is not something that a 2h set-up can match.