Dual Wield Socets stack - yes or no?

Demon Hunter
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05/06/2014 01:12 PMPosted by Maverick
05/06/2014 01:03 PMPosted by Lucidity
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What ? Going from +130% crit damage to +260% crit damage would not double the total amount of damage that you hit for.


if that was the only crit damage you had than yessir it would. stop trying to make counter arguments that arent proving helpful to the overall concern of this thread. ffs use some brain power


But you are NEVER only having that as your ONLY source of crit damage, even if you were naked and wearing just the bows, because even a naked character has a built in +50% damage on crits. The fact that you state an extra 130% crit damage should result in double the crit damage, tells me that you are expecting much larger crits from dual-wielding than the game should allow, and since you are not seeing those tremendous numbers, you assume that the crit isn't stacking.

At this point, you have nothing other than an assertion and a video from a dude that says that the crit damage does not stack. You haven't given me anything that would make me think otherwise. Unproven assertions without data does not validate your claim. So you should take your own advice. Use your brain, test the data, and provide that data. Until then, the one not using the brain is you.
Suggestion: everyone stop posting and those who think there's a problem, gather evidence and report it as a bug. Those who think there's a problem and want to convince others, also present that evidence.

But filling the thread with you guys arguing back and forth with no new data is just going to make more people ignore the thread even if it eventually gets something useful posted in it later.
05/06/2014 01:05 PMPosted by mukunda
05/06/2014 01:01 PMPosted by Maverick
nothing is broken its working as intended..
you guys are just not understanding the word "stack"

all the damage is still there..its just not a bigger number you see on screen.
one bow does 130% at 27mil the other bow does 130% at 27mil..one shot just cannot be 54mil on screen.

its not that hard


You seem to have a misunderstanding of how the damage is calculated.

Say you have 200% crit damage from your gear. Equip a bow with a socket and that raises it to 330%. So each time you crit, the weapon you attacked with has it's damage raised by 330%.

If you equip a quiver, you have a more often chance of that damage occuring, plus additional bonuses such as skill% or increased elite damage.

If you equip another 1hander, your crit damage will be raised to 460%, so if one of your weapon's crit, it will have 460% increased damage.

Now tell me, if they didn't stack and both weapons still only dealt 330% increased damage on crit, why on earth would I dual wield instead of using a quiver?


Let me start off by saying i understand this perfectly.. now that we have that out of the way ill try and help you using YOUR example.

so you have 200% from your gear..you got the 130% from your bow thats correct..

now to the fun part- equipping another 1 hander while it does show your crit damage is increased in your char profile it is spread out a little differently then 460% at one time. However all of the crit damage still gets outputted..thats the misconception people are having.

Lets break it down from your example: Seperate these in your mind and treat them "individually" PER ATTACK
1-h crossbow does 360% damage (including your armors 200%)
another 1-h crossbow does 360% damage

now dont get ahead of yourself that doesnt mean we are doing 720% damage here. Were doing 360% damage per "individual crossbow attack"

were not doing 460% per "individual crossbow attack"

it might be a little complicated to understand but all the CHD is there..its just spread out differently over attacks rather than the chunk of 460% as you have mentioned
05/06/2014 01:22 PMPosted by alienangel
Suggestion: everyone stop posting and those who think there's a problem, gather evidence and report it as a bug. Those who think there's a problem and want to convince others, also present that evidence.

But filling the thread with you guys arguing back and forth with no new data is just going to make more people ignore the thread even if it eventually gets something useful posted in it later.


No. Only those who think there's a problem need to stop posting and get evidence. Because there isn't.

My concrete evidence: People are dual wielding as we speak and the forums aren't filled with tears about crit damage not stacking. It's mathematically not viable to dual wield without it stacking.
05/06/2014 01:25 PMPosted by Maverick

were not doing 460% per "individual crossbow attack"


YES WE ARE.

Okay, again:

With 200% base, this is what you are saying:

With one hand equipped, one gem, im doing 360% per attack. I equip another one hander--without a gem--so I'm alternating between 360% damage crits and 200% damage crits. I put a gem in it, and I'm alternating with same amount of crit damage.

WHY would I want that over just using one weapon and one gem in one hand and a quiver which clearly raises my DPS with crit chance?

It stacks. Please stop.
05/06/2014 01:25 PMPosted by Maverick
05/06/2014 01:05 PMPosted by mukunda
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You seem to have a misunderstanding of how the damage is calculated.

Say you have 200% crit damage from your gear. Equip a bow with a socket and that raises it to 330%. So each time you crit, the weapon you attacked with has it's damage raised by 330%.

If you equip a quiver, you have a more often chance of that damage occuring, plus additional bonuses such as skill% or increased elite damage.

If you equip another 1hander, your crit damage will be raised to 460%, so if one of your weapon's crit, it will have 460% increased damage.

Now tell me, if they didn't stack and both weapons still only dealt 330% increased damage on crit, why on earth would I dual wield instead of using a quiver?


Let me start off by saying i understand this perfectly.. now that we have that out of the way ill try and help you using YOUR example.

so you have 200% from your gear..you got the 130% from your bow thats correct..

now to the fun part- equipping another 1 hander while it does show your crit damage is increased in your char profile it is spread out a little differently then 460% at one time. However all of the crit damage still gets outputted..thats the misconception people are having.

Lets break it down from your example: Seperate these in your mind and treat them "individually" PER ATTACK
1-h crossbow does 360% damage (including your armors 200%)
another 1-h crossbow does 360% damage

now dont get ahead of yourself that doesnt mean we are doing 720% damage here. Were doing 360% damage per "individual crossbow attack"

were not doing 460% per "individual crossbow attack"

it might be a little complicated to understand but all the CHD is there..its just spread out differently over attacks rather than the chunk of 460% as you have mentioned


We get what you're saying. But you have no evidence that this is how it works. You're wasting your time trying to explain it to us. We get your point. But why should I believe you that the game really works the way you have described ? I don't believe you because you are nobody. You're not Blizzard, and you haven't done the test. You only referenced a video of another no-body that also did not do the test. So stop talking and provide the data.
I just want everyone to know that I chose to log in while abroad, have my account locked for suspicious activity, reset my password, then reset it back to the one I was already using… just to say that this thread has been exquisitely entertaining to read. The scores so far:

Maverick thinks DW is twice as fast as single weapon, and that 1+2 is twice as much as 1+1.

RedCell proposes a foolproof method to test this.

mukunda is definitely right, but also definitely mad.

Everyone who cares should just go read my post about DW vs Single-wep: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12673848017 . It proves very methodically that EVEN ASSUMING both gems benefit both weapons, DW barely ever increases your average DPS over Single-wep and then most likely only if you are using Calamity. So Maverick, there are two possibilities:

1) DW gems benefit both weapons and even so it's arguably worse.
2) Well over half of the DH forum community have been losing out on about 20% average DPS by doing DW over Single-wep, which is most likely because they are in fact morons.
So just to stir the pot a little here..... What about a quiver with a socket? Its still an offhand, but you don't attack with it..... Or does the emerald not add crit chance in offhand???? I'm at work and can't remember.
The link from enkelin's post: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12673848017

His might not work since he forgot that there was a small period at the end of the link that got caught up in it where it shouldn't be. :P
05/06/2014 01:38 PMPosted by enkelin
I just want everyone to know that I chose to log in while abroad, have my account locked for suspicious activity, reset my password, then reset it back to the one I was already using… just to say that this thread has been exquisitely entertaining to read. The scores so far:

Maverick thinks DW is twice as fast as single weapon, and that 1+2 is twice as much as 1+1.

RedCell proposes a foolproof method to test this.

mukunda is definitely right, but also definitely mad.

Everyone who cares should just go read my post about DW vs Single-wep: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12673848017. It proves very methodically that EVEN ASSUMING both gems benefit both weapons, DW barely ever increases your average DPS over Single-wep and then most likely only if you are using Calamity. So Maverick, there are two possibilities:

1) DW gems benefit both weapons and even so it's arguably worse.
2) Well over half of the DH forum community have been losing out on about 20% average DPS by doing DW over Single-wep, which is most likely because they are in fact morons.


Thanks, your link is giving a 404 but maybe you can update it when you get sometime- ill try to get a video up of it soon- but i need to get another 1-h crossbow with the same (super close) min/max range as you've probably tested yourself.
05/06/2014 01:39 PMPosted by Sandman
So just to stir the pot a little here..... What about a quiver with a socket? Its still an offhand, but you don't attack with it..... Or does the emerald not add crit chance in offhand???? I'm at work and can't remember.


Emerald in quiver gives dex
Okay. I've gone to the moon to see if it was cheese.

http://imgur.com/a/nwsZD

Nope. And don't tell me about damage range variation, that was from a lot of samples.
Right, sorry about the link. I assumed bnet forum would properly leave the . out of the URL but I guess not. As posted above: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/12673848017
[quote="126717887036"]

WHY would I want that over just using one weapon and one gem in one hand and a quiver which clearly raises my DPS with crit chance?

It stacks. Please stop.


Because that's your wishful thinking. DW mechanism is balanced across all classes. The advantages of DW for procs, set bonuses, and stats for barbs and monks is plenty enough; no need for 130% CHD as well. Emerald gems works the same as ruby gems.

DW doesn't exist within the context of just the DH world. For DH, quivers are better. For a barb and monk, they'll still prefer that TF in OH than wielding a 2h. Not for an extra 130 CHD, but for that sweet proc.

Plus there's precedence from D2 mechanism.

...

Ah, I'm just trolling with you guys. Of course they stack. CHD is a stats found on all gear so they stack the same. Only reason rubies don't it's because it affects the weapon damage on the weapon and not as a gear stats.

Only reason why for most of you the added 130 CHD seems so low is because if you have a high CDH of say 500 already, then an added 130 CHD would only up your damage per crit by 26%. But, if all you had was 50 CHD and 130 CHD on your 2H and you went DW for an extra 130 CHD, then you'd get 72% damage increase per crit. The efficiency of that 130 CHD goes down the better CHD geared you are, so a 2h with a crazy quiver will beat that minute damage increase in the end.
Thanks for all the responses.

I do not have much time in my DH yet and am just trying to learn whats what.
05/06/2014 01:46 PMPosted by mukunda
Okay. I've gone to the moon to see if it was cheese.

http://imgur.com/a/nwsZD

Nope. And don't tell me about damage range variation, that was from a lot of samples.


youre still understanding this wrong man..my head hurts so im not going to try and explain further but i will tell you that your picture doesnt help in anyway as the things you pointed out are irrelevant.
05/06/2014 01:52 PMPosted by Maverick
05/06/2014 01:46 PMPosted by mukunda
Okay. I've gone to the moon to see if it was cheese.

http://imgur.com/a/nwsZD

Nope. And don't tell me about damage range variation, that was from a lot of samples.


youre still understanding this wrong man..my head hurts so im not going to try and explain further but i will tell you that your picture doesnt help in anyway as the things you pointed out are irrelevant.


He probably shoulda un-socketed the second weapon and kept it equiped -- because he obviously also had +dex from his second weapon, which would have skewed his results a bit -- but again, there is no reason for the game to work the way you describe it. And you haven't provided any data that would suggest that it works the way you have described it. Provide the goods.
05/06/2014 01:55 PMPosted by Lucidity
05/06/2014 01:52 PMPosted by Maverick
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youre still understanding this wrong man..my head hurts so im not going to try and explain further but i will tell you that your picture doesnt help in anyway as the things you pointed out are irrelevant.


He probably shoulda un-socketed the second weapon and kept it equiped -- because he obviously also had +dex from his second weapon, which would have skewed his results a bit -- but again, there is no reason for the game to work the way you describe it. And you haven't provided any data that would suggest that it works the way you have described it. Provide the goods.


Theres other things to consider such as min/max that cannot be overlooked when seeing the numbers
05/06/2014 01:57 PMPosted by Maverick
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He probably shoulda un-socketed the second weapon and kept it equiped -- because he obviously also had +dex from his second weapon, which would have skewed his results a bit -- but again, there is no reason for the game to work the way you describe it. And you haven't provided any data that would suggest that it works the way you have described it. Provide the goods.


Theres other things to consider such as min/max that cannot be overlooked when seeing the numbers


Then go do a better test yourself. You're the one advancing the opinion that's not accepted by the community. Most people here do not agree with you, and you still haven't explained to me WHY you think it works the way you described, other than because some dude in a video said so. It's your job to provide a better test if you're advancing the unaccepted opinion.
I've been doing some playing around with this and have been taking off my second hand crossbow in my profile, the Izzuccob and running with just the Nat's Slayer. From what I could observe by using Cluster Arrow with the rest of my gear on, the highest crit I saw was approximately 18,500,000. This was on white trash mobs with no buff up...no MFD, no Harrington, no wolf buff, and nothing to gain from the Unity I have. This was done for about 30 minutes or so while running around and observing in Torment I on the Act III bounties. I saw no other numbers higher than that and I looked very hard to make sure and I also made very sure to keep enough distance between me and mobs so that Steady Aim was up and running.

I then put the Izzuccob back on and ran around some more and observed nothing but my Cluster Arrow crit numbers when I could. Again, put some time into it and eventually I saw my highest crit peek at approximately 22,500,000 on white trash mobs with zero buffs up, and again, just like above I had Steady Aim running and checked to make sure. Now, I know that without the Izzu equipped I lose out on some Dexterity, but even 726 dexterity is NOT going to be anywhere near enough to overcome a 4,000,000 damage difference in the highest crit values that I could see. I was also trying my best to get rough estimates from my observations about the average crit numbers that I was seeing, and while that was a bit difficult, what I saw was:

1. Without Izzu and the 125% crit damage gem, my CAs averaged around 14-15 million.
2. With it equipped my crits were around 16-18 million.

Again, I am very well aware that this isn't perfect and that the DPS difference between the bows could be tighter. I may get my Danetta set out since those are a bit closer in terms of damage and could try them out for more time. However, for what I have been doing, it seems that to me the crit damage gem in the offhand is stacking as it should and both hand crossbows are benefiting from the added crit damage. More testing will certainly help, but as it stands right now, I don't believe the crit gems aren't stacking properly.

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