1 gen or 3 gen?

Monk
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04/23/2012 08:28 PMPosted by mistrfantasy
I would only go w/ 2 max. The only reason to go with 2 is to have your basic spam, and a situational spam(like an AOE situation or a gap closer). The reason why is b/c it's extremely unreliable to combo 3 abilities together with how click spammy this game is, and completely unnecessary considering their similar purpose.


Mouse macros.
You can only cast 1 spell at a time, having 3 generators is a waste of other, more potent abilities. I would maximum have 2. But in all reality you truly only need one.
04/23/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Snoo
I would only go w/ 2 max. The only reason to go with 2 is to have your basic spam, and a situational spam(like an AOE situation or a gap closer). The reason why is b/c it's extremely unreliable to combo 3 abilities together with how click spammy this game is, and completely unnecessary considering their similar purpose.


Mouse macros.


what exactly do the macros do?
04/23/2012 08:45 PMPosted by Amyntas
what exactly do the macros do?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpc9LSzTZ_A
04/23/2012 03:14 PMPosted by ComplexPants
So where are these supposed "buffs" that you get from alternating generators? Considering most of the debuffs only last 3 seconds and they happen on the third strike, you'll be needing to have 3 attacks per second to even use more than two generators for their final hits. Good luck ever doing that with anything but dual-wielding, and good luck finding decent (super fast) weapons before Hell.


Foresight - 18% damage bonus for 30s


Yes, I saw that and already replied. I can guarantee that's a typo and that it's only 3s.
04/23/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Snoo
Mouse macros.


Am I the only one who remembers Blizzard banning WoW players for having a macro keyboard? http://www.infernix.net/wowban/

Foresight - 18% damage bonus for 30s


Yes, I saw that and already replied. I can guarantee that's a typo and that it's only 3s.


Can you? It's been that way for ages.
Anyone have a blue post on Blizzard's stance on Macro mice/keyboards?
Hello forum people! I have a Cyborg RAT7 mouse, I can easily macro things and I have quite a bit of experience making macros for in game use. I am also dead set on making a monk come release of D3.

That being said, I have tested using a three-gen setup with a mouse macro in the beta and I can't really see it being viable unless you are okay with the completely random use of skills.

It isn't 100% impossible to control which skills get used when, but one miss-click and you have to wait for the combo to reset to be able to try again.

The "click macro, wait for it to play out, click again" strat seems pretty much non-viable in such a fast paced, position dependent clickfest of a game.

Because of this, I find it very unlikely that you will be able to get off perfect 3gen combos over and over.

I am curious if people think this is not the case. Do you think that randomly doing all 3 gens is worth it? Do you think that at ~4APS you could mace a macro that is fast enough that you could "spam" it somewhat quickly and still make the combo execute correctly?
(honest questions not sarcasm!!)

My personal solution was just to use a 2 gen build with left and right click and manually combo 1-1-2 and 2-1-2 (1 = FoT 2 = CW).

I am a huge fan of macros so if there is an efficient way to macro a three gen build I want to talk about it. But my experience in game tells me that randomly getting the third hit of deadly reach 3 times in a row is a real let down. :P


Yes, I saw that and already replied. I can guarantee that's a typo and that it's only 3s.


Can you? It's been that way for ages.


A 30s uptime guarantees that it will virtually be up at ALL TIMES, so why even have a duration on it and not just make it a passive? Every other buff/debuff from a generator rune is 2s - 5s. It would not be in line at all with the rest of the generator rune buffs. Hey, if it's actually 30s, it's not like I'm complaining. I just seriously doubt that's actually the final duration at all.

Really, all one has to do is look at Crippling Wave. You get a comparable rune at level 57 that grants a 10% more damage for 3s buff to everything that it hit. Do you truly believe a level 54 rune is going to give you not even more damge, but have ten times the uptime and no "on hit" requirement?
I saw the macro and wasn't to thrilled with it.
In beta I just kept the FoT on left click and held shift and left click, and just wiggled the mouse around the screen.
If I had the macro, id be triggering garbage all over.
04/24/2012 10:23 AMPosted by Orion
Anyone have a blue post on Blizzard's stance on Macro mice/keyboards?

well seeings the d3 mouse came with macro support specific for d3 my guess would be, yes its fine.
04/23/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Snoo
I would only go w/ 2 max. The only reason to go with 2 is to have your basic spam, and a situational spam(like an AOE situation or a gap closer). The reason why is b/c it's extremely unreliable to combo 3 abilities together with how click spammy this game is, and completely unnecessary considering their similar purpose.


Mouse macros.


Mouse macros do not make combo'ing any more reliable. All they do is script in the same sequence of clicks, but they do not synch those clicks to TIME, SITUATION, or PURPOSE.

Lets say you have a sequence of abilities 1, 2, then 3. Against a mob of enemies, you will run into the following difficulties in trying to accomplish a successful combo.

TIME: If your ability 1 kills the first enemy, and the travel distance to your second enemy is longer then what you set your mouse delay to, you will skip the second ability in your combo and only achieve a 1,3,1 combo.

SITUATION: If your enemy has a cc ability, and uses it in the middle of your combo, your combo will also fail. If before the Ability 3 hits you get knock-backed or stunned longer then your mousedelay setting, you will only achieve a 1,2,1 combo or a 1,2,2 combo and your 3rd generator would be useless.

PURPOSE: One of the only reasons to have 3 generators is to achieve the maximum utility of each generator. For example, properly runed, FOT has teleport ability on its first attack, Crippling Wave has a nice debuff in each of its attacks, and WoHF has a massive nuke on its last attack. This combo in sequence is extremely useful and may be worth 3 skill slots, but out of sequence is useless and not worth the 3 slots. If you are like me and like to just hold down the button instead of click spam, your combo will inevitably be unsynched from its original combo sequence unless you miraculously are able to match your mouse delay to your attack speed(which will change constantly with different weapons). If the first enemy you kill(assuming he takes all 3 strikes) is a 1,2,3, the second enemy will be a 2,3,1. While the first kill will take the full benefit of having a sequential combo, the second enemy will have wasted the best parts of each attack.

In conclusion, Macros are a nice trick when dealing with one-off sequences, but when dealing with repetitive loops like the monk's combos, they are not reliable.
I don't think a 3 generator build will be viable without the use of mouse macros. Attack speed is just too high, and Combination Strike does not last long enough to go through a whole combo to somewhat take the strain off your hand. You would probably feel very uncomfortable after a very short time of playing if you're not a Korean pro piano player.

And we have yet to find out about Blizzard's stance on macros, but I think it's not looking too hot.
04/24/2012 02:04 PMPosted by mistrfantasy
In conclusion, Macros are a nice trick when dealing with one-off sequences, but when dealing with repetitive loops like the monk's combos, they are not reliable.


I agree with your argument that mouse macros are inherently flawed in the manner you described. But I disagree with you on their value because I think that relying on manual button coordination of attacks is even more inherently flawed. I believe the potential attack up-time provided with using macros will outweigh the human error affiliated with trying to manually use three combo generators properly. I do predict that with good practice and a strong will, players will get relatively good at sequencing combo generators manually for their specific purpose, but equally so I believe through much trial and error players will get good at making fine-tuned adjustments to their macros to keep them working as properly as they can. I definitely believe that the higher the monk's APS gets, the more favorable macro usage will become.

It doesn't seem to me that you really gave it very much thought about the synthesis of mouse macros and the nature of the combo sequence. In many ways the effort to perform the perfect combo sequences will not be hindered but in fact enhanced by macros.

It's safe to say in most cases (at least in most of my builds), people who use mouse macros are going to take huge advantage of FoT(Thunderclap). Aside from this skill's overwhelming natural advantage, it's going to be insurmountably beneficial to the inner workings of the macro. Anyone using a repeat macro with this ability will be able to depend on starting the combo sequence with this ability. Why? Because the second you are no longer in melee range of a monster and your combo sequence times out, you guarantee your next attack to be with this ability. You will always begin every combat engagement with this attack, and therefor you can predictably align your combo sequence at least until the first monster dies.

It's been pointed out that at least most spirit spenders forcibly reset the combo sequence. This will be another way to exploit the macro's rotation. In other words especially if I notice that my macro is off-tilt in its sequencing, I can use a spirit spender like Cyclone Strike (an ability I incorporate in most of my builds), the monsters will definitely be in melee range, and following the ability I can immediately restart the macro.

Another thing I've noticed is that Deadly Reach's third sequence is the only ability that will trigger beyond melee range. So whenever you happen to suddenly be outside of melee range in between combo sequence two and three, whenever you scroll over a monster at range, and the second your macro rolls up to Deadly Reach, it will be the skill chosen. Deadly Reach happens to have two runes which benefit solely from the third strike as well. Call it luck, but this is another example of how the macro will inherently work itself out in a beneficial manner.

Lastly, you can always hold the shift key down when you begin the macro to force it to roll through your abilities in the sequence you specifically want. The only drawback here is that you won't move, but there are many combat situations where this is not only acceptable, but preferable.
I agree with you Snoo.

I feel like there are ways to make macros work well for 3gen and maybe even 4gen builds.
It also seems like there will be cute little tricks like you just stated that may work out in favor of macros.

For the most part though, I sincerely doubt that macros will greatly increase the effectiveness of the Monk class in general.

They will greatly reduce the burden on the player for running 3gen/4gen but because these builds are only theoretically better if you pull off perfect combos, and no macro will be able to do this will any relative consistency, it seems unlikely that you will strictly gain efficiency.
04/24/2012 03:03 PMPosted by Spacely
They will greatly reduce the burden on the player for running 3gen/4gen but because these builds are only theoretically better if you pull off perfect combos, and no macro will be able to do this will any relative consistency, it seems unlikely that you will strictly gain efficiency.


We've only been pitting the efficiency or inefficiency of macros against three combo generator builds that specifically feature one or more of those generators requiring use on a specific sequence strike in order for them to work properly. What about builds that do not have that constraint? Here's a 4-combo generator build I came up with for group-play.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQUfb!Zfg!abbZcY

I already discussed in my previous threat how FoT(Thunderclap) actually enhances macro usage. Notice the other three generator and rune effects do not directly require being used in a specific sequence to reap extra benefits (WotHF[Blazing Fists] is intended for the second strike but it would still work fine without regularly being used so).
04/24/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Snoo
It's safe to say in most cases (at least in most of my builds), people who use mouse macros are going to take huge advantage of FoT(Thunderclap). Aside from this skill's overwhelming natural advantage, it's going to be insurmountably beneficial to the inner workings of the macro. Anyone using a repeat macro with this ability will be able to depend on starting the combo sequence with this ability. Why? Because the second you are no longer in melee range of a monster and your combo sequence times out, you guarantee your next attack to be with this ability. You will always begin every combat engagement with this attack, and therefor you can predictably align your combo sequence at least until the first monster dies.


Combos do not reset from being out of melee range, they reset based on a specific time, and this time is long enough to walk a eighth of the screen(its about 1.5 seconds before the combo resets, w/ enough Attack Speed, you can land an entire combo in that time). If you've tried this on the beta, you will notice that you will not be able to initiate every combo with FOT's teleport from click-spam(considering beta monsters die in 1 shot).

Anyway, regardless, it is extremely unlikely any1 can develop a macro that will consistently not just hit all 3 generators in a combo(for the damage boost) but to hit them in the exact order of abilities so that they are useful. You are using up 3 skill slots for a combo that will have <50% uptime, when those 2 skills can be better used on better utility skills.
04/24/2012 03:16 PMPosted by Snoo
They will greatly reduce the burden on the player for running 3gen/4gen but because these builds are only theoretically better if you pull off perfect combos, and no macro will be able to do this will any relative consistency, it seems unlikely that you will strictly gain efficiency.


We've only been pitting the efficiency or inefficiency of macros against three combo generator builds that specifically feature one or more of those generators requiring use on a specific sequence strike in order for them to work properly. What about builds that do not have that constraint? Here's a 4-combo generator build I came up with for group-play.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQUfb!Zfg!abbZcY

I already discussed in my previous threat how FoT(Thunderclap) actually enhances macro usage. Notice the other three generator and rune effects do not directly require being used in a specific sequence to reap extra benefits (WotHF[Blazing Fists] is intended for the second strike but it would still work fine without regularly being used so).


lol, my thought's exactly! As quoted from the "post your build" thread:
How about this for a "I don't care which skills my macro uses as long as it keeps spamming all 4 gens" build?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#abWUdk!Ygd!Zacbca

Macro would be: WotHF -> FoT -> CW -> DR
This would make it most likely to use WotHF's dash to engage, to end with CW (best 3rd imo) and to use DR when targets are too far away to FoT or CW and you are in the combo too far for WotHF dash.
Reasonably, you would just spam tons of different abilities all the time though!

Hoping to spend ALL the spirit on dashing strike and spamming MoC for Trancendence heals.
32% dmg increase from combo strike and 48% from MoC spam ftw! Plus passive (mostly) 31% dodge and another 20% after you dash.
Lets look at it this way: With 4 slots as spirit generators, you get a measly 32% dps boost assuming you can keep the passive buff @ 100% up time. If you replace 1 of those spirit generators with Mystic Ally, you have a about a 120% additional damage(its 40% weapon damage + whatever rune ability you pick(approx 80%-120% weapon damage) vs a 32% boost over * 110% weapon damage) in addition to a 24% boost from the passive. As you can see, picking mystic ally would be way better then picking up a 4th ability. This is generally true for most spirit generators, as they deal significantly less damage then the abilities that spend spirit. You would severely gimp your damage in most cases if you went with a 4th ability. The opportunity cost of spirit spenders is just too high.

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