let's talk about enrage timers

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I know what some boss enrage timers are, but to save spoilers I'll transpose it onto the Skeleton King. So, as an imaginary example, in Inferno if you don't kill the Skeleton King within four minutes he starts spawning three times the amount of skeletons. That creates a much tougher situation, but it's one you could very well handle if played right.

People kiting the Skeleton King around for an hour with their level 3 characters is fun to see. It's not fun when it's level 60's at end game and item drops matter. To make these kills and thus a character's progression matter we need to try to fight cheesy tactics that allow people to just flop through the game.


This is rather unproductive. You (Blizzard) have continuously claimed that the best loot is off rare spawns so unless every rare and champion spawn is also going to have enrage timers, what exactly is the point of putting an artificial timer on a fight. Individuals don't grow in strength after long battle. In fact, the realistic circumstances would actually weaken the boss over time but then again when was fiction based on reality?
No one says rares DONT have enrage timers either. Bosses should ALWAYS be the hardest tho....they're bosses. with the neph buff it will be good for faming but with rares and such having just as good drop rates otherwise....theres no reason to RUSH to the boss, kill everything on the way to the boss then kill the boss with neph buff on
I know what some boss enrage timers are, but to save spoilers I'll transpose it onto the Skeleton King. So, as an imaginary example, in Inferno if you don't kill the Skeleton King within four minutes he starts spawning three times the amount of skeletons. That creates a much tougher situation, but it's one you could very well handle if played right.

People kiting the Skeleton King around for an hour with their level 3 characters is fun to see. It's not fun when it's level 60's at end game and item drops matter. To make these kills and thus a character's progression matter we need to try to fight cheesy tactics that allow people to just flop through the game.


Oddly, I'm thinking people just don't understand the enrage timers are not forcing you to kill something in X amount of time. It is just a way to ensure you are making balanced builds, the kind which deal damage, offer defense/heals and provide some evasive powers. Blizzard isn't wanting people to focus explicitly on one of those three areas because it removes depth from the game.

I'm just glad this is not some hard enrage timer and you can actually 'manage' the enraged version for a while. Hard enrage timers would really really suck for hardcore characters!

Perhaps to make inferno challenging. Ever think of that? They don't want us to be able to plow through the game and find the high end gear easily, so they chose to make inferno hard. I'm sure the enrage timers have no real purpose besides difficulty, which is totally fine and sound.


A hurdle is a challenge. A brick wall is not a challenge, it is a barrier! Don't misconstrue and think that enrage timers create a challenging fight. If anything, one can argue that if you lived up to the enrage timer than the fight mechanics themselves were trivial and your inability to finish was only due to an artificial gear barrier.

Perhaps to make inferno challenging. Ever think of that? They don't want us to be able to plow through the game and find the high end gear easily, so they chose to make inferno hard. I'm sure the enrage timers have no real purpose besides difficulty, which is totally fine and sound.


A hurdle is a challenge. A brick wall is not a challenge, it is a barrier! Don't misconstrue and think that enrage timers create a challenging fight. If anything, one can argue that if you lived up to the enrage timer than the fight mechanics themselves were trivial and your inability to finish was only due to an artificial gear barrier.


You can still fight after the timer gets activated... it's not a 1 shot kill like it is for half of the WoW bosses.
I know what some boss enrage timers are, but to save spoilers I'll transpose it onto the Skeleton King. So, as an imaginary example, in Inferno if you don't kill the Skeleton King within four minutes he starts spawning three times the amount of skeletons. That creates a much tougher situation, but it's one you could very well handle if played right.

People kiting the Skeleton King around for an hour with their level 3 characters is fun to see. It's not fun when it's level 60's at end game and item drops matter. To make these kills and thus a character's progression matter we need to try to fight cheesy tactics that allow people to just flop through the game.


I am ok with this. Just don't make timers cheesy where "Time's up, you lose". As long as it just increases the difficulty, it's fine.

Perhaps to make inferno challenging. Ever think of that? They don't want us to be able to plow through the game and find the high end gear easily, so they chose to make inferno hard. I'm sure the enrage timers have no real purpose besides difficulty, which is totally fine and sound.


A hurdle is a challenge. A brick wall is not a challenge, it is a barrier! Don't misconstrue and think that enrage timers create a challenging fight. If anything, one can argue that if you lived up to the enrage timer than the fight mechanics themselves were trivial and your inability to finish was only due to an artificial gear barrier.
There's a difference between giving bosses "I Win!" buttons and what has been detailed here. As long as that insta-wins are avoided, these types of enrage timers are fine.
Dude.....

I think I speak for all fish out of water that can't do anything but flop, why the hate?

We're paying customers too and just because we have found ourselves in a precarious situation that results in flopping, doesn't mean we don't have feelings too.

#476
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i think this is the first time i have liked a response on these forums ..
05/06/2012 10:55 AMPosted by Damastes
Don't force people to be efficient if they don't want to be.


The point of the game is efficiency... Killing monsters as quickly as possible to maximize your time to find the drops you want. That is the game. I think you should do whatever you think is fun, absolutely, but if you want to go at a slower pace, not really worry much about maximizing efficiency, and just kind of take it at your own speed you're going to have a pretty rough time in Nightmare let alone Inferno. Hopefully as the game progresses and difficulty ramps up you're naturally being encouraged to tighten up your build and scrutinize your gear more and more.

In any case though, as I detailed the enrage timers aren't "I Win" buttons for the bosses, so a more defensive build should still be able to progress if they're geared and being played well.

This is rather unproductive. You (Blizzard) have continuously claimed that the best loot is off rare spawns so unless every rare and champion spawn is also going to have enrage timers, what exactly is the point of putting an artificial timer on a fight. Individuals don't grow in strength after long battle. In fact, the realistic circumstances would actually weaken the boss over time but then again when was fiction based on reality?


With the Nephalem Valor buff the best loot is off champions, rares, and (assuming the buff is up) bosses. As I said the point is ensuring "legitimate" progression. But if someone wants to farm rares and champions in the beginning of Act I because they can't beat the Skeleton King, they should absolutely do that. And actually, everyone should be expecting to do exactly that when they reach Inferno.
Don't force people to be efficient if they don't want to be.


The point of the game is efficiency... Killing monsters as quickly as possible to maximize your time to find the drops you want. That is the game. I think you should do whatever you think is fun, absolutely, but if you want to go at a slower pace, not really worry much about maximizing efficiency, and just kind of take it at your own speed you're going to have a pretty rough time in Nightmare let alone Inferno.

This is rather unproductive. You (Blizzard) have continuously claimed that the best loot is off rare spawns so unless every rare and champion spawn is also going to have enrage timers, what exactly is the point of putting an artificial timer on a fight. Individuals don't grow in strength after long battle. In fact, the realistic circumstances would actually weaken the boss over time but then again when was fiction based on reality?


With the Nephalem Valor buff the best loot is off champions, rares, and (assuming the buff is up) bosses. As I said the point is ensuring "legitimate" progression. But if someone wants to farm rares and champions in the beginning of Act I because they can't beat the Skeleton King, they should absolutely do that. And actually, everyone should be expecting to do exactly that when they reach Inferno.
So there is Inferno-specific loot? From a previous post:
Item pools are not limited by Act, or Boss, or anything like that. While you'll have a better chance to get better items in Act IV Inferno, you could get those same items in Act I, or even Hell.
This has confused a good portion of the community.
If a specific boss or enemy has a mechanic that makes them more powerful the longer you fight them thats one thing- if they just have a "you're not killing me fast enough" clock then that is lazy and just plain bad game design.
05/06/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Gnomenclatur
If a specific boss or enemy has a mechanic that makes them more powerful the longer you fight them thats one thing- if they just have a "you're not killing me fast enough" clock then that is lazy and just plain bad game design.


well that is just your own opinion =)

it feels exciting for me.
05/06/2012 11:19 AMPosted by Welly
If a specific boss or enemy has a mechanic that makes them more powerful the longer you fight them thats one thing- if they just have a "you're not killing me fast enough" clock then that is lazy and just plain bad game design.


well that is just your own opinion =)

it feels exciting for me.
You can very often achieve the same goal without the metagamey "I Win" button.

The point of the game is efficiency... Killing monsters as quickly as possible to maximize your time to find the drops you want. That is the game. I think you should do whatever you think is fun, absolutely, but if you want to go at a slower pace, not really worry much about maximizing efficiency, and just kind of take it at your own speed you're going to have a pretty rough time in Nightmare let alone Inferno.

In any case though, as I detailed the enrage timers aren't "I Win" buttons for the bosses, so a more defensive build should still be able to progress if they're geared and being played well.

With the Nephalem Valor buff the best loot is off champions, rares, and (assuming the buff is up) bosses. As I said the point is ensuring "legitimate" progression. But if someone wants to farm rares and champions in the beginning of Act I because they can't beat the Skeleton King, they should absolutely do that. And actually, everyone should be expecting to do exactly that when they reach Inferno.


Efficiency has its rewards already in place. You have greater chances of loot as you are able to kill more mobs in a shorter period of time. Since the penalty for inefficiency is already in the game in the form of slower drop and less loot then what exactly does the enrage timer hope to accomplish other than becoming an artificial barrier of progress?

Also, do champions and rares have enrage timers? If not, then your stance on efficiency is null and void since you have stated that killing mobs in Inferno is much more productive than killing them in Hell therefore killing something slower in inferno should be more efficient than killing greater amount of monsters in Hell.
05/06/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Berkilak
You can very often achieve the same goal without the metagamey "I Win" button.


They aren't "I Win" buttons.
05/06/2012 11:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
Don't force people to be efficient if they don't want to be.


The point of the game is efficiency... Killing monsters as quickly as possible to maximize your time to find the drops you want. That is the game. I think you should do whatever you think is fun, absolutely, but if you want to go at a slower pace, not really worry much about maximizing efficiency, and just kind of take it at your own speed you're going to have a pretty rough time in Nightmare let alone Inferno. Hopefully as the game progresses and difficulty ramps up you're naturally being encouraged to tighten up your build and scrutinize your gear more and more.

In any case though, as I detailed the enrage timers aren't "I Win" buttons for the bosses, so a more defensive build should still be able to progress if they're geared and being played well.

This is rather unproductive. You (Blizzard) have continuously claimed that the best loot is off rare spawns so unless every rare and champion spawn is also going to have enrage timers, what exactly is the point of putting an artificial timer on a fight. Individuals don't grow in strength after long battle. In fact, the realistic circumstances would actually weaken the boss over time but then again when was fiction based on reality?


With the Nephalem Valor buff the best loot is off champions, rares, and (assuming the buff is up) bosses. As I said the point is ensuring "legitimate" progression. But if someone wants to farm rares and champions in the beginning of Act I because they can't beat the Skeleton King, they should absolutely do that. And actually, everyone should be expecting to do exactly that when they reach Inferno.


Does this mean rares, champions, and elites do not have enrage timers to your knowledge?
Sounds great, I am excited. Sounds like how I would imagine it to be. Thanks Bash!!
05/06/2012 11:14 AMPosted by Bashiok
everyone should be expecting to do exactly that when they reach Inferno.


Gotta farm up that tier gear before you progress! Hello boring MMO structure.

No, if the timer is too low just to inject artificial difficulty, it's going to lead to cookie-cutter builds. It takes NO skill to simply use the exact build someone shows to be the strongest. It takes more skill to be able to win such scenarios no matter WHAT your build. But if the enrage timers are too low, that disourages any such fun and we'll be forced back into specific builds to beat "the timer.", which is a complete letdown. "Gee, it's so hard to pick the build others have shown us to be strongest - so much for all the other builds I really WANTED to use."

Now, if the timer is, say, 10 minutes to keep lowbies that truly do not yet belong there out, then this is all a moot point.

And what's the point of MF gear (or ANY gear that's not staked for DPS) if wearing it means you WILL die to the rage timers? Again, if this is simply an artificial way to make it "harder," it's an epic fail on that department and ruins the game - it's that simple.


+1
05/06/2012 11:21 AMPosted by Omniscient
what exactly does the enrage timer hope to accomplish other than becoming an artificial barrier of progress?


Nope! You nailed it, that's the intent of an enrage timer.

I like how you throw in "artificial" as a negative. It's a video game. It's all designed and artificial. If there's a "natural" or "organic" way to stymie someone's attempt to cheese their way through a boss kill I'd be happy to hear it.

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