Diminishing Returns on Armor = Myth (graphs)

Barbarian
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This didn't make sense to me until I played a Demon Hunter. (weird, I know, but bear with me)

Do you know the move Caltrops? And the rune that increase its slowing power from 60% to 80%? That's how I understood it.

Without the rune, the skill slows enemies by 60%, and with the rune, 80%. 20% more slow doesn't sound like much of an increase compared to the initial 60%, right? But think of it this way:

With the 60% slow, the enemy moves at 40% speed.
With the 80% slow, the enemy moves at 20% speed.

So even though it only added 20% slow to the move, it reduced the reduced speed of the enemy by half. This is my interpretation of what the OP means when he says Diminishing Returns = Myth. Each point of armor may give less DR than the last, but each new % of DR is more effective than the last.
I recently went from a DH (wtf is HP? You mean this game isn't a 3rd person shooter?!) to a monk and was feeling pretty lost regarding the math on health vs armor vs resists vs LoH/leech. Great posts OP.

Thanks.
how is "reduces damage from melee" factored into this?

As a wizard with blur (-20% melee dmg) + a 3% melee reduc neck + a 5% melee reduc shield, shouldn't I have 28% melee damage reduction? My tooltip on the character screen shows only 26.28% total.

When I remove blur from my passives, the total becomes 7.85%. When I place each of the items individually on, they all show 3% and 5% total respectively.

So how is this being calculated, because as it stands, I seem to be getting less and less as I stack more, and if that's the case, it really seems to stand that stacking other stats, like vitality, which don't have a diminishing returns, seems like the way to.
how is "reduces damage from melee" factored into this?

As a wizard with blur (-20% melee dmg) + a 3% melee reduc neck + a 5% melee reduc shield, shouldn't I have 28% melee damage reduction? My tooltip on the character screen shows only 26.28% total.

When I remove blur from my passives, the total becomes 7.85%. When I place each of the items individually on, they all show 3% and 5% total respectively.

So how is this being calculated, because as it stands, I seem to be getting less and less as I stack more, and if that's the case, it really seems to stand that stacking other stats, like vitality, which don't have a diminishing returns, seems like the way to.


All damage reduction is multiplicative. Basically, each item is being applied one after the other, and you are mitigating the remaining damage as it 'breaks through' each item or passive ability.

Assume a 100k damage hit. Blur reduces this by 20%, down to 80K. Then the necklace drops the 80K by 3% to 77.6K. And finally, the 5% is applied to the 77.6K, leaving 73.72K. This is exactly 26.28% melee reduction.

In short, (100-20)%x(100-3)%x(100-5)% = 73.72% melee damage received, or 26.28% reduction.

Removing blur yield (95%)*(97%) = 92.15% --> 7.85% reduced melee damage.

EDIT:
To take it further, if you had 3 items that reduced melee damage by 90%, the effect would be 99.9% melee damage reduction. Each item would have the effect of increasing your effective health in melee by a factor of 10. Or, you receive only 0.1% of melee damage.
So does the value of "reduces damage from X" decrease or remain linear, as you stack it, like the OP was describing for armor?
So when you carry the 4 over and divide it by the lowest common denominator= Don't stand in Arcane Sentries. Interesting.
07/05/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Lyrael
So does the value of "reduces damage from X" decrease or remain linear, as you stack it, like the OP was describing for armor?


It remains linear with respect to effective health. There is no point (at game obtainable levels) where adding more melee damage reduction has diminishing returns on your overall survivability.
If you have 50% resistance reduction and 50% damage reduction you do not have 100% total reduction. This means it doesn't matter if you aim for 70% from your armor and 30% from your resistances or split it 50/50 because they are multiplicative.

Stack it whichever way you want.
Amazing Site. Well done.
So I have tried to understand your math and tried comparing values from your chart (see quote below) to my values ingame.


Graph illustrating damage reduced as armor increases:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzcHYxf3ztgTbklET1Y5bWRndzA/edit

Yet I receive completely different ones. For example: My lv 60 barb stripped naked has got 261 armor, which according to your chart shouldn't yet provide any damage reduction. It does, in fact provide 8% vs mobs on the same level. At ~3k armor I should receive around 30% according to the chart but get in fact nearly 50% - is there something I am missing or did you make a mistake?
Greetings,
not sure if the flash graph works right, there are no situations where armor beats out vitality.

only time armor was more valuable was when monster level was 1 and player level was 60

even at 75k hp and 0 armor vitality is more important according to the flash app thingy
Need this thread sticky'd.

I haven't used the charts but:

08/19/2012 05:41 AMPosted by Thaddäus
Yet I receive completely different ones. For example: My lv 60 barb stripped naked has got 261 armor, which according to your chart shouldn't yet provide any damage reduction. It does, in fact provide 8% vs mobs on the same level. At ~3k armor I should receive around 30% according to the chart but get in fact nearly 50% - is there something I am missing or did you make a mistake?


These numbers in game are consistent with Damage reduction formula:

DR = Armor/(Armor+(monster_level*50))
My barb had 45 percent reduct from teh armor, and I popped some skill and it tripled his armor but only too the reduct to 70 percent. I may not be able to put 1 and 1 together, but even I can see that 70/45 is less than 3 my friend.

Myth busted.


The amount of armour is actually inversely proportional to the damage received, therefore it is not as simple as dividing the numbers. For one, you should not look at the reduction, but at the percentage of damage received. Then we should compare the numbers to the norm, and then we can divide ;) Let's give us an example:

Say you have 10k hp and you receive 1k hits
0% reduct means 100% dmg received, so on 10k hp that's 10,000/1,000= 10 hits
45% reduct means 55% dmg received, so on 10k hp that's 10,000/550=18,18 hits
= +8.18 extra hits
70% reduct means 30% dmg received, so on 10k hp that's 10,000/300=33,33 hits =
+23.33 extra hits

Now let's calculate the improvement: 23.33/8.18 = 2.85
There's your magic three.

Myth Confirmed!
sorry i disagree, there is DIMINISHING RETURNS, if there wasn't you could reach 100 percent damage reduction. the reason why you can't is because of the DIMINISHING RETURNS formula.

500 resist and your at 50 percent reduction.
if what you say is true
if you add twice you would get 100 percent reduction.

but you don't. which only means theres DIMINISHING RETURNS

don't make it harder than it is and don't try to confuse people.

its really just simple basic math.

here is a good example

2000k and i'm at 90 percent

i can give you 10000000000000000000000000 resist

and you wouldn't be at 100 percent. talk about no DIMINISHING RETURNS.
Can someone take a look at my gear and tell me what is my next upgrade? I am a ww barb but my dps seems a tad low, hoping to change my MH weapon and my rings next.
sorry i disagree, there is DIMINISHING RETURNS, if there wasn't you could reach 100 percent damage reduction. the reason why you can't is because of the DIMINISHING RETURNS formula.

500 resist and your at 50 percent reduction.
if what you say is true
if you add twice you would get 100 percent reduction.

but you don't. which only means theres DIMINISHING RETURNS

don't make it harder than it is and don't try to confuse people.

its really just simple basic math.

here is a good example

2000k and i'm at 90 percent

i can give you 10000000000000000000000000 resist

and you wouldn't be at 100 percent. talk about no DIMINISHING RETURNS.


Ummm maybe you should read the OP again... especially this paragraph:
"I have witnessed many people on these forums explaining to others that armor has diminishing returns. While it is true that the amount of damage reduction goes down as armor goes up, the actual effect of armor on your survivability remains constant."

THE5RINGS: You are the one confusing people. Everyone knows that resists and armor have diminishing returns on damage reduction. This guide explains that there is NO DIMINISHING RETURNS on SURVIVABILITY, which is equivalent to Effective HP (EHP). Get it right.
Lol this thread is at least 2 months old?
here is a good example

2000k and i'm at 90 percent


Then, if you have 50K life, your EHP is 500K.

09/04/2012 09:04 PMPosted by THE5RINGS
i can give you 10000000000000000000000000 resist


Really? Sweet!

Because then with the same 50K life, your EHP against mlvl 63s would be 1587301587301587301587301587.

If you stood still, Inferno Diablo would not kill you until the heat death of the universe, and that's even if you're not a barb regenerating 15873015873015873015873016 EHP per second.

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