Theorycrafting: Dodge Monk: MoE-Backlash

Havent read all post, at work on cell phone, how dodge works read this previously but havent done the math myself

Say you have 30% dodge from dex, so mobs have a 70% chance to hit
Then you add path ofthe guardian 15% dodge
15% of the mobs 70% chance to hit you 10.5ish? So you now have a 40.5% chance to dodge, mobs a 59.f% chance to hit you, MoE 15% of the mobs 59.5% chance to hit ....... And so on

But from what I understand the passive that gives us 30% dodge from our crit is additive so it would add a flat rate to dodge 30.52% would become 39.52% if you had 30% crit
It's maybe for a fun build, and yes, this pretty much.. somewhat fails on 1 on 1 situation.

It's more of a dungeon crawling build or those you use when you go out killing elites and not bosses :)

If you'd be stacking Crit Chance with this one, ASPD for sure, go for Cyclone rune of Sweeping, you'll see that you are dealing WAY more damage when those small tornadoes of hell comes popping out. 40% Crit on a 2.5-3.0 ASPD, you'd see them multiplying like horny rabbits.
So Sixth Sense is additive instead of multiplicative? If it doesn't suffer from diminishing returns could it put a Monk's dodge chance up around 75% with 33% crit and procs?
While I'm still not sure about the viability of such a build, I did the math just to see what sort of dodge chances could be achieved. This is just preliminary work, and there's a lot more to go into before we can make a determination as to whether or not this build is viable.

This involves stacking every single source of dodge available to a monk (if I've missed any, please let me know):

    -Base Dodge
    -Guardian's Path
    -Sixth Sense
    -FoT (Lighting Flash)
    -DS (Blinding Speed)
    -CS (Wall of Wind)
    -MoE Activation

The numbers I've obtained make a few assumptions:

    -A base dodge (i.e. from dex) of 40%
    -A crit chance of ~33.33%
    -The fact that (apparently) Sixth Sense is an additive source of dodge, and not multiplicative. I'd like to test this to be sure, but it does make sense (no pun intended); this ability being multiplicative would make it the worst ability in the game hands down.

Now for the numbers.

First we have what I'll call "passive dodge". Provided you always keep MoE up, this is your chance to dodge without using any abilities, including FoT:


Not bad. Next we've got what I'll call "combat dodge". This is simply passive dodge plus the dodge from FoT (Lighting Flash). I consider this an important value because:

1. As a spirit generator, this requires no spirit

2. There may be situations where it would be unwise or unviable to use other dodge providing abilities even when spirit is adequate


Even better!

Finally, let's look at the best case scenario where you have Blinding Speed, Wall of Wind, and the MoE activation buff all up simultaneously:


Hot damn!

Now before anybody starts thinking that this is something truly powerful, I have some serious reservations about this, some of which have already been brought forth in this thread:

-Some sources of severe damage cannot be dodged, period.

-Even though the vast majority of things can be dodged, in the absolute best case scenario, you're still gonna eat roughly 1 out of every 10 attacks. It's much more likely that, most of the time, you're going to get hit by 3 out of 10 dodgeable attacks. Please remember, that your actual dodge chance is necessarily less than your listed dodge, due to the fact that you are fighting mobs that are greater than level 60.

These two issues combined with ridiculously high monster damage, in my opinion, relegate dodge to a supplemental defensive stat. Simply put, dodge is only good if it doesn't come at the expense of taking fatal damage when you don't dodge. Because of the random nature of dodge, you can have a reverse "Like Water", even with exceptionally high dodge.

With that being said, I'd still be interested to see such a build tested. Provided you can hit a baseline level of damage reduction while still maintaining all this dodge, this could be a very formidable way to play a monk.


I know the OP talked a bit about using such a build with MoE - Backlash. Simply put, I think Backlash is a really underpowered ability. I say this mostly because it competes with Hard Target, which is ridiculously good. And the fact that Backlash merely has a chance to proc on a dodge makes it even worse than it seems. I'd be interested to see it tested, but it just really seems like a junk rune in my opinion.
Evasion builds are nice.

I have 60% evasion when my mantra is active. That's without adding the evasion bonus from lightning flash.

I crushed Act II with this build.

I don't focus my whole build around dodge. I had a couple upgrades since Act II.

Atm I'm sitting at 24k dps 7-8k armor 280-360 all resists and 47k hp.
When I get hit I don't die. I can actually take a lot of hits. Loh helps a bit too.

I tried Backlash once, its pretty cool. Hardtarget is just so nice though, hard to give up.
The stupid instant kill stuff like getting vortex into a laser/molten/plagued pile or having a laser spawn on you is all undodgable.

-The fact that (apparently) Sixth Sense is an additive source of dodge, and not multiplicative. I'd like to test this to be sure, but it does make sense (no pun intended); this ability being multiplicative would make it the worst ability in the game hands down.

Sixth sense is multiplicative `_`
You can dodge Arcane. Even with a lot of dodge, its not like the only thing you will have is dodge. That's just stupid.

I have 47k hp 6-7k armor 240-360 in all resists (give or take some) and 24k dps.

I was messing around in Act III today. Just did the first quest, didn't have to skip any elites and died 2-3 times.

I'm just trying to farm Act II some while progressing in Act III. I like to take my game experience at my own pace. XD

All I'm saying is a build built around some Evasion does work, I'm doing it and been doing it. I owned up Act II with ease with this build. The little time I spent in Act III I feel like I'm going to have a good time.

I want to be able to go more offensive, but my gear just doesn't give me that option atm. I wouldn't be able to survive the hits. =(

My build.!YXd!Zcbaca
06/08/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Teckno
You can dodge Arcane.

Uh huh. Please provide a screenshot of you dodging an arcane sentry.
I didnt read any of these posts hardly, but for what its worth, I used Backlash when farming inferno act 1. It is really good if you've got over 50% dodge. It procs 99% of the time, and has no cooldown. In big packs I could literally stand there and all the melee mobs around me would melt away almost instantly with out me even attacking.
05/24/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Krinu
No. Diminishing returns set in. You'll peak out around 65% or so, I believe.

theres no diminishing returns on dodge itself. the tooltips just confuse people.

Example: MoE 15%

say your base dodge is 20% that means out of 100 attacks 80 would land w/o MoE. with MoE you dodge 15% MORE attacks. 15% of 80 is 12. therefore with MoE you'd get hit with 68 attacks out of 100. you're dodge would read out 32% on char sheet in this example with MoE.

Note: the passive sixth sense is additive to your dodge% which makes it a great passive even though it doesn't look like it.
hello again, at home this time, i checked out sixth sense and it is NOT additive, it is multiplied
Actually, we can't dodge arcane. I tested it in normal act 1 with 40%+ dodge chance running thru arcane many time, yet not able to dodge it.

We can dodge frozen, the horror's body explosion, "fire bomb" that's dropped by the dying mobs, and etc that has an aoe ties to it. I'm not sure about the wasps' lil bugs since I tend to avoid the lil bugs spewed by the wasps.
sure you can dodge arcane ... just run around it :)
06/08/2012 08:08 PMPosted by Ominith
sure you can dodge arcane ... just run around it :)

WHAT!?!? We have to kite to avoid arcane?!?! BLASPHEMY!! I didn't sign up as a Monk to run around arcane.... ;)
Frost can be dodged.

As for the OP - The way your total dodge% is calculated it is mathematically impossible to reach 100% dodge. In fact, it isn't even realistically possible to get beyond 75% dodge. Dexterity, for example, has diminished returns as it applies to dodge. Other buffs that are added are multiplicative.

-The fact that (apparently) Sixth Sense is an additive source of dodge, and not multiplicative. I'd like to test this to be sure, but it does make sense (no pun intended); this ability being multiplicative would make it the worst ability in the game hands down.

Sixth sense is multiplicative `_`

And again, just to reinforce the point. Sixth Sense is NOT Additive. It is Multiplicative. This is easily tested out by every single monk level 27 or higher.
Are you in town?
Note your dodge chance.
Note your crit chance.
Change one passive to Sixth Sense.

Backlash can easily do more damage then Sweeping Winds. And you may not have noticed but the % weapon damage that Backlash does is dependent on weapon speed. Faster weapons do a higher % (of a usually lower) weapon damage. Sweeping winds does not change damage % dependent on weapon speed (but may tick faster?). I personally run with 1.43 attack speed (yes I know, terribly slow) and backlash hits for 50% weapon damage. If I swap to a slower weapon 1.31, it drops down to 46%. Doing a little plotting with a bunch of different weapon speeds it seems like Backlash does 35% of your weapon damage, times your attack speed. So if you have a 3.0 attack speed it would do 105% weapon damage.
Edit: Cleaned up the following math a little.
It is hard to compare Sweeping Winds and Backlash because it is hard to fix monster attack speed. If we assume they attack at 0.5 (once every 2 seconds) then you would need 6.7ish mobs (assuming you have a 50% chance to dodge) for them to break even. Switching the monster attack speed up to 1.0 changes the break point to half that, or about 3.3ish. This is regardless of your attack speed, because Backlash takes into account weapon speed and I am assuming Sweeping Winds ticks based on your attack speed as well.

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