Suggestions to Improve (Remove) the Monotony

General Discussion
This is a bit of a long one, so I've broken it up into 3 posts. The short version is this:

In my opinion, in order for Diablo 3 to truly succeed, it needs more variety. There are a ton of build possibilities, and the game needs a system that encourages players to experiment with them rather than penalize them for it (Nephalem Valor loss on skill swap).
--For more specifics, see the second post here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6019721986?page=1#2

Further, upon conquering Act IV Inferno and maxing a character, there really is nothing left. As it stands, without PvP, an Endless Dungeon, or some other form of endgame features, once you reach Inferno, Diablo dies with Diablo.

--For more specifics, see the third post here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6019721986?page=1#3 NOTE: I've gone into a LOT of detail here, so be prepared for some heavy reading. Sorry :P

Here is the short summary of the Endless Dungeon proposal (More details in the link above):

I propose an endless dungeon in the form of a survival challenge that gets progressively more challenging with each passing floor and Waypoints that serve to save your progress every 10 so you can return at a later date with a more powerful character and attempt to dive deeper into the abyss. Character death is not permanent, but it does reset the dungeon.

Now, for the full version:

Original post on Gear Swapping:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012

I started thinking about the question posed in that post, and the more I thought about it and tried to decide which options I thought were best, I started to realize that the problem goes a lot deeper than just swapping out Magic Find gear for the killing blow.

Early on in the Diablo release, I really got the impression that this was a game about variety. Well...farming...and then variety. With every change, every patch, ever hot fix, the game feels like its drifting further away from a custom fit and shifting toward a “Best in Slot” approach.

I’ve enjoyed Diablo 3 so far (Never played 1 or 2), but I’m only as far as Act III in Nightmare, and I’m already feeling this strong sense of monotony and repetition. I can’t shake the feeling of “If I have to do this one more time, I will punch something.”

I know. No one is forcing me to play. I don’t have to explore every random dungeon that shows up on the map when I just into a game. But I want to. And, I’m reasonably confident that I’m not the only one. I think the big problem with Diablo 3 right now is that there is always an ideal.

A lot of design decisions early in Diablo 3 (and more recently with the elimination of pot-smashing in Act I) were designed to prevent the single-minded repetition. The developers don’t want us doing simple Boss runs. It’s one encounter. It gets old, and it loses some of the “fun”, so instead, they introduce a little more variety with the Nephalem Valor buff.

They encourage us to branch out and fight opponents that are a little more varied. They want us to work our way through the act, explore all the environments, kill everything we come in contact with…and THEN go take down the “Big Bad”.

In theory, it’s not a “bad” design. Rather than the repetition of downing a single boss, we now have the variety of an entire act that we run again, and again, and again. At the end of the day, the repetition and the monotony is still there.

I think the biggest change that needs to happen here is the introduction of mechanics ad features that promote variety over repetition and experimentation over “best in slot”, and there are a couple (potentially) easy ways to make that happen.
MULTIPLE LOADOUTS

In theory, this is simple. It stems from the existing practice of Magic Find gear swapping and the fact that when you factor in the Runes, each class has somewhere in the range of 3,328,246,817,280 possible combinations of Active Skills, and 1,430 Passive Skill combinations.

There is a ton of potential there, but we’re being confined to one. In Normal and Nightmare modes (Possibly Hell? Haven’t gotten there yet), swapping skills is no big deal. There is a little bit of a cooldown, but that’s bearable. In inferno, swapping skills nukes the Nephalem Valor buff. In a game that supposedly encourages a variety of builds, we’re being “penalized” for experimenting.

With the numbers mentioned above, I know not every combination of skills is going to be effective. My Demon Hunter would probably get pummeled rather hard if I ran into a fight with Trap based active skills and Archery based passives.

That said, if there are that many options available to us, then let us run with them. Give players the option to have multiple loadouts. The base theory here is: one for trash encounters, and one for bosses.

To be more specific, I suggest giving us three stored skill sets, and two stored armor sets. Let us rotate between those stored sets, and let us do so at no “cost” to Nephalem Valor. Just give us an instant transition.

If we choose to swap out a single skill in our active loadout, then nuke the Nephalem Valor buff. That mechanic is not a huge problem as long as we have the tools to capitalize on the potential for variety inherent in the skill set for each class.

I’m reasonably confident that this would add a lot more variety to the existing gameplay, because players would be able to run into a game with a lot more skills at their disposal and would have some freedom to try new builds and maybe take a new approach to the Illusionist Molten Mortar One Shot powerhouse with Invulnerable Minions that has been giving them so much trouble.

If there is supposed to be a lot of variety in Diablo 3, then let us actually capitalize on it. It will make the game much more fun.
NON-LINEAR GAMEPLAY/ENDLESS DUNGEON

Conceptually, I get it. Diablo 3 is designed to be story driven. There is nothing wrong with that (I know, general forum opinion seems to be that the story is lacking, but that’s not exactly my point here).

For our first time through the game, strict, linear progression makes sense. I personally enjoy a little more freedom to explore, but when it comes to gaming, I’ve always preferred the journey to the destination. That said, strict linear play can still work, and in Normal mode (and most of Nightmare), it does (For me, at least).

That said, by the time a player reaches Inferno, they’ve been led through the same story, the same encounters, and probably the same “random” side dungeons at least 3 times...and likely a lot more.

That repetition escalates when they are repeatedly running through Act I to gear for Act II, and then Act II to gear for Act III, etc. That gets old. There is no way around it, and no amount of automatic cinematic/dialogue skipping is going to change that.

A lot of players are asking for it, and there is a lot of potential in it. Give us an Endless Dungeon.

As it stands, the sad truth is that Diablo 3 has no wide-reaching “Endgame”. When you finally topple Diablo in Inferno and when you’ve finally collected that last piece of top-tier gear, the only thing left is an endless quest through the same maps, and the same encounters in search of items to sell to another player striving to reach the post Inferno plateau.

In its current state, once you reach Inferno, Diablo dies with Diablo.

Let the story remain as is (If you decided to improve some dialogue, I wouldn’t complain…but it’s not necessary ;) ). Linear progression for the core story and quest chains works. It may not be ideal, and it may feel rigid to a lot of people, but I think you’ve built the framework for a gameplay scenario where linear story progression is the right move.

Make the Endless Dungeon something independent. I suggest a type of survival mode (Similar to Hard Core, but a little more forgiving than the “One and Done” take on death, and a little more “fluid” than the core story). I had posted this previously, but can’t seem to locate it, so here it is again (With some slight modifications to my original proposal).

The basic concept:
--Randomized layout
--No experience <- This is key for me.
--Slightly increased drop rates
--(Possibly) Drops crafting materials in addition to items

The dungeon would be “linear” in the sense that it is a series of floors. More specifically each floor would have a randomly generated layout using “tiles” from the existing interior environments: Keep, Cathedral, Tomb, Cave, etc. Each floor is different every game (Similar to dungeon/event spawning in the existing story mode).

Each floor would be progressively more difficult than the one before, so while floors 1-10 may be beatable for a level 15 character who is moderately geared, floors 60+ may be near impossible for anyone but the most talented players. And, naturally, the deeper the player goes, the more valuable the loot becomes.

Since this is a “Survival Mode” if you die, you lose. The entire dungeon resets, but (unlike Hard Core mode), you can continue to play that character, and you can re-enter the dungeon to try it again. Now, there is some inherent repletion when you consider players who die on floor 100 have to start over at floor 1, which is where Checkpoints and Waypoints come in.

Players will trigger a Checkpoint on every floor, so that if they are in the midst of a run (especially on later floors where it may take a substantial amount of time to work their way through) and need to leave the game (or possibly get disconnected), rather than starting over at the beginning of the dungeon, they are reset to the start of that floor. (Players should be penalized for death, not for having a life ;) )

Waypoints would be slightly different. Basically, every 10 levels, you encounter a “boss”. The boss could be any of the existing game bosses (mini-bosses at lower difficulties, act bosses at higher difficulties), or it could be an exceptionally dangerous group of elite/rare enemies with some especially potent affix combos. (Maybe a “boss” could be a 5 minute survival mode against a relentless onslaught of skeletons like a more challenging version of Jar of Souls)

If you successfully defeat the “boss”, you unlock a Waypoint on the following level. So now, if you’ve defeated the boss on floor 10, but you eventually die on floor 15, rather than starting over entirely, you can begin from the Waypoint on floor 11. This prevents some of the mind-numbing repetition inherent in a “One and Done” approach. Players could still choose to start over from the first floor, but it wouldn’t be required of them.

In addition, defeating a boss grants you a “permanent” boost to Magic Find that either lasts until you leave the game, or until you die. This buff would be different from the existing Nephalem Valor. Say a 5% buff to Magic Find, but with no hard cap on the number of stacks players can obtain.

In this scenario, players can still jump into the dungeon at any of the deeper (more challenging) Waypoints, but the more bosses you kill, the greater your reward, so players who begin on the first floor every game will see some truly amazing rewards if they reach floor 60+.

To further add to the randomization of the endless dungeon, it may even be a decent idea to add some random Event spawns. Things like Jar of Souls (Or any other existing base game event), miners searching for rare ore, rescuing people trapped by demons, etc. Maybe even some of the more “challenging” events (That end in a “boss” encounter or involve an “endless” horde of opponents) could be treated as a 10th floor challenge encounter.

As for the “No Experience” feature, I think this is important. This endless dungeon should be a test of survival, not a means to level. I think that players should be leveling through the story. Maybe there is an opportunity for a middle ground in the form of “boss” experience. Rather than XP per kill, maybe the “bosses” and events that occur in the dungeon offer some bonus XP reward upon completion in line with the character level and the encounter’s difficulty level. Either way, I think experience gain in the endless dungeon should be minimal, if not non-existent.

Curious to know others’ take on this. I know there a lot of things about this game that could use a second look, but for me personally, I think these two things are changes that would have a major impact on the game’s quality almost instantaneously, but if you have other ideas, please share.
NON-LINEAR GAMEPLAY/ENDLESS DUNGEON

Conceptually, I get it. Diablo 3 is designed to be story driven. There is nothing wrong with that (I know, general forum opinion seems to be that the story is lacking, but that’s not exactly my point here).

For our first time through the game, strict, linear progression makes sense. I personally enjoy a little more freedom to explore, but when it comes to gaming, I’ve always preferred the journey to the destination. That said, strict linear play can still work, and in Normal mode (and most of Nightmare), it does (For me, at least).

That said, by the time a player reaches Inferno, they’ve been led through the same story, the same encounters, and probably the same “random” side dungeons at least 3 times...and likely a lot more.

That repetition escalates when they are repeatedly running through Act I to gear for Act II, and then Act II to gear for Act III, etc. That gets old. There is no way around it, and no amount of automatic cinematic/dialogue skipping is going to change that.

A lot of players are asking for it, and there is a lot of potential in it. Give us an Endless Dungeon.

As it stands, the sad truth is that Diablo 3 has no wide-reaching “Endgame”. When you finally topple Diablo in Inferno and when you’ve finally collected that last piece of top-tier gear, the only thing left is an endless quest through the same maps, and the same encounters in search of items to sell to another player striving to reach the post Inferno plateau.

In its current state, once you reach Inferno, Diablo dies with Diablo.

Let the story remain as is (If you decided to improve some dialogue, I wouldn’t complain…but it’s not necessary ;) ). Linear progression for the core story and quest chains works. It may not be ideal, and it may feel rigid to a lot of people, but I think you’ve built the framework for a gameplay scenario where linear story progression is the right move.

Make the Endless Dungeon something independent. I suggest a type of survival mode (Similar to Hard Core, but a little more forgiving than the “One and Done” take on death, and a little more “fluid” than the core story). I had posted this previously, but can’t seem to locate it, so here it is again (With some slight modifications to my original proposal).

The basic concept:
--Randomized layout
--No experience <- This is key for me.
--Slightly increased drop rates
--(Possibly) Drops crafting materials in addition to items

The dungeon would be “linear” in the sense that it is a series of floors. More specifically each floor would have a randomly generated layout using “tiles” from the existing interior environments: Keep, Cathedral, Tomb, Cave, etc. Each floor is different every game (Similar to dungeon/event spawning in the existing story mode).

Each floor would be progressively more difficult than the one before, so while floors 1-10 may be beatable for a level 15 character who is moderately geared, floors 60+ may be near impossible for anyone but the most talented players. And, naturally, the deeper the player goes, the more valuable the loot becomes.

Since this is a “Survival Mode” if you die, you lose. The entire dungeon resets, but (unlike Hard Core mode), you can continue to play that character, and you can re-enter the dungeon to try it again. Now, there is some inherent repletion when you consider players who die on floor 100 have to start over at floor 1, which is where Checkpoints and Waypoints come in.

Players will trigger a Checkpoint on every floor, so that if they are in the midst of a run (especially on later floors where it may take a substantial amount of time to work their way through) and need to leave the game (or possibly get disconnected), rather than starting over at the beginning of the dungeon, they are reset to the start of that floor. (Players should be penalized for death, not for having a life ;) )

Waypoints would be slightly different. Basically, every 10 levels, you encounter a “boss”. The boss could be any of the existing game bosses (mini-bosses at lower difficulties, act bosses at higher difficulties), or it could be an exceptionally dangerous group of elite/rare enemies with some especially potent affix combos. (Maybe a “boss” could be a 5 minute survival mode against a relentless onslaught of skeletons like a more challenging version of Jar of Souls)

If you successfully defeat the “boss”, you unlock a Waypoint on the following level. So now, if you’ve defeated the boss on floor 10, but you eventually die on floor 15, rather than starting over entirely, you can begin from the Waypoint on floor 11. This prevents some of the mind-numbing repetition inherent in a “One and Done” approach. Players could still choose to start over from the first floor, but it wouldn’t be required of them.

In addition, defeating a boss grants you a “permanent” boost to Magic Find that either lasts until you leave the game, or until you die. This buff would be different from the existing Nephalem Valor. Say a 5% buff to Magic Find, but with no hard cap on the number of stacks players can obtain.

In this scenario, players can still jump into the dungeon at any of the deeper (more challenging) Waypoints, but the more bosses you kill, the greater your reward, so players who begin on the first floor every game will see some truly amazing rewards if they reach floor 60+.

To further add to the randomization of the endless dungeon, it may even be a decent idea to add some random Event spawns. Things like Jar of Souls (Or any other existing base game event), miners searching for rare ore, rescuing people trapped by demons, etc. Maybe even some of the more “challenging” events (That end in a “boss” encounter or involve an “endless” horde of opponents) could be treated as a 10th floor challenge encounter.

As for the “No Experience” feature, I think this is important. This endless dungeon should be a test of survival, not a means to level. I think that players should be leveling through the story. Maybe there is an opportunity for a middle ground in the form of “boss” experience. Rather than XP per kill, maybe the “bosses” and events that occur in the dungeon offer some bonus XP reward upon completion in line with the character level and the encounter’s difficulty level. Either way, I think experience gain in the endless dungeon should be minimal, if not non-existent.

Curious to know others’ take on this. I know there a lot of things about this game that could use a second look, but for me personally, I think these two things are changes that would have a major impact on the game’s quality almost instantaneously, but if you have other ideas, please share.


I agree with u but the thing u sayed about the XP amount u gain....
I think that u need to put XP per floor's event, on the 1st floor you'll get 1.5k-5.5k XP depends on the players lvl. If he's lvl 15 he'll get 1.5k and if his 25 he'll earn 2.5k, etc'.
And player on lower lvl than 15 will earn 1.5k which is the minimal.

And every floor they should increase the XP amount for about 3k-5k (min-max) untill you reach the boss floor where u get normal XP from mobs and from the boss.
and if you make it as a survival game/challange than they should make daily challange and leaderboard for this and than u might be able to earn SP/EDP/whatever name u call it(survival points/endless dungoen points) that you can use later for buying gear in the AH or buy unique stuff from a merchant they will put in the end of every 10 floors.

But after all i really like your suggestion i really hope blizzard will pay atention to this thread instead of replying to the MF gear swapping threads.

EDIT : when u get to floor 10-20-30-50-????? (boss encounters) you'll start earning more XP per floor. Every 10 floors you'll earn 15k more min' XP and +15k max and then just increase it by 3-5k per floor till next 10 floors.
nice , can only hope
I like the idea. +1
NON-LINEAR GAMEPLAY/ENDLESS DUNGEON

Conceptually, I get it. Diablo 3 is designed to be story driven. There is nothing wrong with that (I know, general forum opinion seems to be that the story is lacking, but that’s not exactly my point here).

For our first time through the game, strict, linear progression makes sense. I personally enjoy a little more freedom to explore, but when it comes to gaming, I’ve always preferred the journey to the destination. That said, strict linear play can still work, and in Normal mode (and most of Nightmare), it does (For me, at least).

That said, by the time a player reaches Inferno, they’ve been led through the same story, the same encounters, and probably the same “random” side dungeons at least 3 times...and likely a lot more.

That repetition escalates when they are repeatedly running through Act I to gear for Act II, and then Act II to gear for Act III, etc. That gets old. There is no way around it, and no amount of automatic cinematic/dialogue skipping is going to change that.

A lot of players are asking for it, and there is a lot of potential in it. Give us an Endless Dungeon.

As it stands, the sad truth is that Diablo 3 has no wide-reaching “Endgame”. When you finally topple Diablo in Inferno and when you’ve finally collected that last piece of top-tier gear, the only thing left is an endless quest through the same maps, and the same encounters in search of items to sell to another player striving to reach the post Inferno plateau.

In its current state, once you reach Inferno, Diablo dies with Diablo.

Let the story remain as is (If you decided to improve some dialogue, I wouldn’t complain…but it’s not necessary ;) ). Linear progression for the core story and quest chains works. It may not be ideal, and it may feel rigid to a lot of people, but I think you’ve built the framework for a gameplay scenario where linear story progression is the right move.

Make the Endless Dungeon something independent. I suggest a type of survival mode (Similar to Hard Core, but a little more forgiving than the “One and Done” take on death, and a little more “fluid” than the core story). I had posted this previously, but can’t seem to locate it, so here it is again (With some slight modifications to my original proposal).

The basic concept:
--Randomized layout
--No experience <- This is key for me.
--Slightly increased drop rates
--(Possibly) Drops crafting materials in addition to items

The dungeon would be “linear” in the sense that it is a series of floors. More specifically each floor would have a randomly generated layout using “tiles” from the existing interior environments: Keep, Cathedral, Tomb, Cave, etc. Each floor is different every game (Similar to dungeon/event spawning in the existing story mode).

Each floor would be progressively more difficult than the one before, so while floors 1-10 may be beatable for a level 15 character who is moderately geared, floors 60+ may be near impossible for anyone but the most talented players. And, naturally, the deeper the player goes, the more valuable the loot becomes.

Since this is a “Survival Mode” if you die, you lose. The entire dungeon resets, but (unlike Hard Core mode), you can continue to play that character, and you can re-enter the dungeon to try it again. Now, there is some inherent repletion when you consider players who die on floor 100 have to start over at floor 1, which is where Checkpoints and Waypoints come in.

Players will trigger a Checkpoint on every floor, so that if they are in the midst of a run (especially on later floors where it may take a substantial amount of time to work their way through) and need to leave the game (or possibly get disconnected), rather than starting over at the beginning of the dungeon, they are reset to the start of that floor. (Players should be penalized for death, not for having a life ;) )

Waypoints would be slightly different. Basically, every 10 levels, you encounter a “boss”. The boss could be any of the existing game bosses (mini-bosses at lower difficulties, act bosses at higher difficulties), or it could be an exceptionally dangerous group of elite/rare enemies with some especially potent affix combos. (Maybe a “boss” could be a 5 minute survival mode against a relentless onslaught of skeletons like a more challenging version of Jar of Souls)

If you successfully defeat the “boss”, you unlock a Waypoint on the following level. So now, if you’ve defeated the boss on floor 10, but you eventually die on floor 15, rather than starting over entirely, you can begin from the Waypoint on floor 11. This prevents some of the mind-numbing repetition inherent in a “One and Done” approach. Players could still choose to start over from the first floor, but it wouldn’t be required of them.

In addition, defeating a boss grants you a “permanent” boost to Magic Find that either lasts until you leave the game, or until you die. This buff would be different from the existing Nephalem Valor. Say a 5% buff to Magic Find, but with no hard cap on the number of stacks players can obtain.

In this scenario, players can still jump into the dungeon at any of the deeper (more challenging) Waypoints, but the more bosses you kill, the greater your reward, so players who begin on the first floor every game will see some truly amazing rewards if they reach floor 60+.

To further add to the randomization of the endless dungeon, it may even be a decent idea to add some random Event spawns. Things like Jar of Souls (Or any other existing base game event), miners searching for rare ore, rescuing people trapped by demons, etc. Maybe even some of the more “challenging” events (That end in a “boss” encounter or involve an “endless” horde of opponents) could be treated as a 10th floor challenge encounter.

As for the “No Experience” feature, I think this is important. This endless dungeon should be a test of survival, not a means to level. I think that players should be leveling through the story. Maybe there is an opportunity for a middle ground in the form of “boss” experience. Rather than XP per kill, maybe the “bosses” and events that occur in the dungeon offer some bonus XP reward upon completion in line with the character level and the encounter’s difficulty level. Either way, I think experience gain in the endless dungeon should be minimal, if not non-existent.

Curious to know others’ take on this. I know there a lot of things about this game that could use a second look, but for me personally, I think these two things are changes that would have a major impact on the game’s quality almost instantaneously, but if you have other ideas, please share.


I really, really like this idea.

Just throwing it out there: what if you could only use the items from the dungeon inside the dungeon? You go in with the level 1 equipment and have to scour the floors for better equipment to advance the levels (to make it not so crazy difficult to find gear, you'd have 5 stacks of NV or something like that), and every X floors you get a bag with really good equipment for your class to send outside to your stash.
Great concept, i have encountered similar concepts in other games that i enjoyed, there was a dungeon climb endgame event similar to this in final fantasy xi, where you started at floor 1 and had to unlock your equip slots as u went and could only save progess every 5 levels with a boss every 20 levels that dropped good loot and a chance at a special weapon for each class. Also in Front Mission 5 scars of war there was a game mode were u would rank up in levels starting form lvl 1 with nothing and gearing up as u went if u died u had to start over and the loot was often specific to that game mode and at end u could pick 1 or 2 pieces to take out with u to rest the game. Both were great time sinks and would work well in diablo's loot centered gameplay.
I agree with u but the thing u sayed about the XP amount u gain....
I think that u need to put XP per floor's event, on the 1st floor you'll get 1.5k-5.5k XP depends on the players lvl. If he's lvl 15 he'll get 1.5k and if his 25 he'll earn 2.5k, etc'.
And player on lower lvl than 15 will earn 1.5k which is the minimal.

And every floor they should increase the XP amount for about 3k-5k (min-max) untill you reach the boss floor where u get normal XP from mobs and from the boss.
and if you make it as a survival game/challange than they should make daily challange and leaderboard for this and than u might be able to earn SP/EDP/whatever name u call it(survival points/endless dungoen points) that you can use later for buying gear in the AH or buy unique stuff from a merchant they will put in the end of every 10 floors.

But after all i really like your suggestion i really hope blizzard will pay atention to this thread instead of replying to the MF gear swapping threads.

EDIT : when u get to floor 10-20-30-50-????? (boss encounters) you'll start earning more XP per floor. Every 10 floors you'll earn 15k more min' XP and +15k max and then just increase it by 3-5k per floor till next 10 floors.


Truthfully, I'd actually prefer that the dungeon offered no XP. Like I said, ideally, I see this as something independent of the normal game progression. The endless dungeon I have in mind is really just meant to be a test of strength.

I think the rewards from this mode should be gear heavy and not XP heavy. Maybe that's a bad idea though. I think a flat reward per floor is a bad idea. If it were t offer XP, I would think the normal XP per kill would be a better option, but perhaps it could be reduced by 40-60 percent. Conceptually, I expect progressing through 10 floors of the dungeon would be quicker than progressing through an entire act because you don't necessarily have the same type of quest chaining. With no dialogue, no cut scenes, and no short term incentive to quit the game and reload a zone, I see players spending more time in the dungeon, and thus earning more XP, so reducing the XP gained while inside the endles dungeon would keep the character progression on a similar pace to the normal story mode progression (That way no one game mode becomes the "best" way to level, and players will be free to choose the mode that most suits their style).
Beating. A. Dead. Horse.
07/03/2012 04:11 PMPosted by RunoEddie
Just throwing it out there: what if you could only use the items from the dungeon inside the dungeon? You go in with the level 1 equipment and have to scour the floors for better equipment to advance the levels (to make it not so crazy difficult to find gear, you'd have 5 stacks of NV or something like that), and every X floors you get a bag with really good equipment for your class to send outside to your stash.


Not a bad idea actually.

The one down side is working that concept in with Waypoints and Checkpoints. If you hit the Waypoint on the 51st floor and die on 52, if you come back in at the 51st floor, would your starting gear still be level 1?

Building off of this, I do thing the endless dungeon should have its own hub town and its own "story" (I use story very loosely here as a means of fitting this dungeon concept into the Diablo lore.

Heaven has the Silver Spire. Hell has the Abyss: A bottomless pit of demonic horrors hidden away in the bowls of the Burning Hells. Legends speak of evils lurking within unlike anything the mortal world has ever seen. Only the most daring adventurer is foolish enough to explore the shadowy depths in the realm of the damned in search of unspeakable power.

The hub town is simply the gateway to the Abyss. A stash, a single vendor, Haedrig and Shen. (And I suppose your companions could come along if they really, really wanted to)
If you can't get your point across in one paragraph, don't expect me to to agree with your reasons for being long winded.

TLDR - playwrights need not apply


The single paragraph is easy:

I propose an endless dungeon that gets progressively more challenging with each passing floor and Waypoints that serve to save your progress every 10 so you can return at a later date with a more powerful character and attempt to dive deeper into the abyss.

The full post isn't exactly "long-winded". It's long, because it's a detailed description of the finer points of the basic concept.

Also. I'm not a playwright. Oddly close though. Screenwriter. :P

07/03/2012 09:08 PMPosted by arejays
Beating. A. Dead. Horse.


Then the question is: Why is the horse dead?

There are a lot of complaints on this forum. There are also a lot of proposed solutions.

Even if (As some have said) the active forum posters are only a small percentage of the greater Diablo 3 community, we should still make an effort to speak our mind and share our opinions.

The developers listen to feedback. They've proven that. The fact that the feedback is often considered "whining" by the "hard core" crowd (I'm not referring to the One and Done game mode here) isn't really the point. If we see a proposal we like, we should support it.

Do you think an endless dungeon is a bad idea? Could I convince you to share your opinion?

I don't want to start an argument over this; I'm genuinely curious what other players think, but more importantly, I think we should also share why.
Much better, and a good idea as well.
My only reason to remark with the "length" comment is that in the process of reading through the extended posts to get to the heart of what the OP is trying to convey, there are numerous threads that go by the wayside that also can have good information in them. And as we all know there are just as many, if not more, that should have never been written, but that's how the system works.


I do tend to write too much; in all things, really. It's nice to have people call me out on it, actually. Reminds me to shut up. :D
I think what most of you, such as the OP, are forgetting is the time it would take to make such changes/additions. Honestly, some of these very good suggestions could possibly only be implemented in an expansion, if not on D4 (lol?). For example, do you think the pony level was made in just one week or two?
End Game Content is replayability, whether that comes at replaying the same game again, only harder or in a different way, or it comes from replaying a certain section of the game, like Baal runs, or running a certain game mode or challenges after the "main game" is completed.

They were banking on item farming to be enough endgame. That would be fine if this were no auction house. However, the auction house essentially killed the "point" of Diablo to begin with. Why farm when you can just buy better gear? Especially since the drop rates were nerfed to make you feel more enticed to visit said auction house. The item hunt itself is bland. All Uniques/Legendaries are boring and or weak. Item "upgrades" are usually a very minor increase to one of your stats, and rarely a large DPS boost, or Armor boost.

D3 has no more character progression. You max out your level before "end game" (Inferno), and you gain nothing that improves your character outside of items. You have no alternate modes, like PvP (coming "Soon"(tm) ), or an "endless dungeon". It has minimum randomization within the game itself, be that in the levels, dungeons, monster varieties, mini-quests...Once you've played through the game 3 times and are playing through it the 4th "end-game" time, you've most likely seen most if not all (and that's only with one character!). It has no character "permanency", so replaying it to level up new toons is limited. 10 characters is all you will need, 5 of each class, female and male, hardcore and softcore, and you are done.

The problem is that Inferno was done as part of the game progression. Ie, you go through Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and then you do the "real game" in Inferno. Thus the beginning 3 playthroughs are boring as sin because you are trying to get through them as fast as possible to get to the "real game". Inferno should have been an aside to the main game, like Challenge Modes or PVP. It should also not have been the only thing to do! As well, make the beginning 3 difficulties actually fun and interesting to play, and offer something to do once you've levelled to max level.

So, You need to improve the core game first. Itemization. Give me something to hunt for. Give me items that are worthwhile. Add resistances/damage types/elemental types back into the game, making items more interesting, as well as giving characters more reasons to choose between items other than DPS. Give me Uniques that are interesting. Give me large varieties in items and socketables to make it interesting to hunt for them. You need more than just 4 gems and they need to do more interesting things in each thing you socket. You need jewels back to give more mods to add to items. You need more varieties of Affixes and Suffixes. You need to increase the drop rates of things that are interesting (uniques/sets). You need to give more ways to improve items, and at the same time you need to remove items from the game in order to encourage hunting. This is due to the auction house, which we know will not be removed.

You need to have some sort of destruction. Why not have it cost an item and a gem to add a socket to another item? Why not have it cost progressively more items and gems in order to add more sockets, up to the max number a specific item can hold? Maybe things like a 2-handed sword can get up to 6 or 8 sockets in it, while one handers can only get 3 (encourage 2-handed usage). Why not make rings and amulets more expensive to stick sockets into?

Why not add a use for white items into crafting? Remember searching for that perfect ethereal item with sockets to throw runes into? Or bring imbuing back. Or how about being able to personalize your items so that you can have "Jaroh's Great Axe of Cleverness" or some such, or let us create a set. There's so much more you can do with items that were done.

You need to add some sort of character personalization and progression back to the game. How about allowing us to "socket" a skill, and by sticking a gem into it, you give that skill some modifiers, like increased radius, or multishot, or lifesteal, or crushing blow, or any number of interesting modifiers that you can attach to gems. Using Jewels, you can get people to add random mods to their skills as well. Changing skills destroys the gem/jewel. Maybe you can gain a socket with experience after reaching level 60? Or using the mystic?

You need to let us get powerful. You need to let us be able to kill waves after waves of demons and make it fun to do so, not kite a couple around for minutes until you finally kill one and then do it again, for the rest of the entire endgame! You need to get rid of 1-shots, at least in the extreme amounts they are using. What do we do with quest rewards once we've reached level 60? Make them interesting and tie them to character development. Give us a way to improve followers, skills, abilities, runes for their skills, what have you.

You need more Randomization. In the overland, you need more varieties of monsters and monster attacks in each area. Maybe a pool of available monsters in each area to choose from, so you never know what you are going to face until you are there. You need more randomness in the overland tiles as well. Make the land larger, with more random blocks in them. Add more offshoots. Remember the "you want people to explore every corner of the map because you never know what you will find?" That kind of feeling.

In dungeons, the same thing, but you also need more randomization to the maps themselves, in the number of map tiles as well as the sizes of the maps, and the "mazeness" of them. You need more variety to the scripted events, so that you don't always face 4 skeletons coming out of the ground here, or 3 skeletons jumping through the window there, or 4 zombie halves coming at you from the trees there, or 3 bats from the holes over there. You need this to be a variety, so that you don't know what or how many to expect, or even if some are bosses or not.

You need more random events for every area of the game. You need more random lines from followers (or else just shut them up!). You need more random numbers of enemies in each group, but overall you need much larger packs, so that you can kill mobs of them. You need more "optional bosses" that are not just "normal" enemies, but unique enemies that aren't part of the main progression. The later acts definitely need "more" everything...

Replayability. You need to make the land progressively larger for each difficulty. You need to add in new areas/monsters/quests in each progressive difficulty. Make the areas larger, more variety, deeper dungeons, more offshoots, more miniquests. You need to kill the story. It is terribly written and we don't want to be forced into it anymore. Or improve it. One of the two. The story needs to be sidelined from the game so that "pressing escape" is not necessary. Add more character choices, whether that be more skills to choose from, or making existing ideas more fleshed out (Melee Wizards and Ranged Barbs for example).

You need to add more modes. Add a Challenge Mode. Add a Team Challenge Mode. Add a Time Trial Mode. Add a Descent into Hell/Endless Dungeon Mode. Add Uber Mode. Add PVP Mode. Put these in the same category as Inferno Mode so that people can choose how they want to farm their gear. Get rid of Whimseyshire and add in an area that isn't an insult and outright mock to part of your player-base. Hell add in multiple areas, secrets within secrets.

Make us want to play the damn game. There's your "End Game"
07/03/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Jx1
I think what most of you, such as the OP, are forgetting is the time it would take to make such changes/additions. Honestly, some of these very good suggestions could possibly only be implemented in an expansion, if not on D4 (lol?). For example, do you think the pony level was made in just one week or two?


Not once did I actually say that an endless dungeon would be easy to create. I said that, once implemented, I expect it would improve the endgame experience almost instantaneously. I suppose my wording may have been confusing though.

I'm fully aware that this isn't the kind of thing that can happen over night, and it may likely have to wait for an expansion. Truth is, that's even more reason to bring it up now. I know how long these things take...maybe not down to the minute, but I have a reasonable idea. Knowing that additions like this are a process, why would I wait for the Blizzard to announce the expansion to say "Ooh! Add an endless dungeon!"

By mentioning it now, and by gaining support (or trying to, anyway) for this feature now, I'm putting the idea out there in such a way that maybe the development team will see the concept and say "You know, we should really think about this for the expansion."

I meant this suggestion to be a forward thinking, future oriented improvement intended to preserve the long-term apeal of Diablo 3. The expansion packs need to introduce endgame replayability.

That's the nature of the beast. A lot of the things that could have a significant impact on the quality of the game and the community interest in it aren't things that can happen over night, so we need to get people talking about them now to figure out what the community wants, and maybe the devs will listen. :)
07/04/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Dyc3r
I think what most of you, such as the OP, are forgetting is the time it would take to make such changes/additions. Honestly, some of these very good suggestions could possibly only be implemented in an expansion, if not on D4 (lol?). For example, do you think the pony level was made in just one week or two?


Not once did I actually say that an endless dungeon would be easy to create. I said that, once implemented, I expect it would improve the endgame experience almost instantaneously. I suppose my wording may have been confusing though.

I'm fully aware that this isn't the kind of thing that can happen over night, and it may likely have to wait for an expansion. Truth is, that's even more reason to bring it up now. I know how long these things take...maybe not down to the minute, but I have a reasonable idea. Knowing that additions like this are a process, why would I wait for the Blizzard to announce the expansion to say "Ooh! Add an endless dungeon!"

By mentioning it now, and by gaining support (or trying to, anyway) for this feature now, I'm putting the idea out there in such a way that maybe the development team will see the concept and say "You know, we should really think about this for the expansion."

I meant this suggestion to be a forward thinking, future oriented improvement intended to preserve the long-term apeal of Diablo 3. The expansion packs need to introduce endgame replayability.

That's the nature of the beast. A lot of the things that could have a significant impact on the quality of the game and the community interest in it aren't things that can happen over night, so we need to get people talking about them now to figure out what the community wants, and maybe the devs will listen. :)


Like

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum