1. Well tornadoes will always hit (tick) only as many times as listed in the chart over 3 seconds. The game basically calculates 180 / frame length and rounds up to a whole number. Even a result like 180/11=16.36 gets rounded up to 17 tornado ticks.

Essentially, WW and RLTW both hit at the same frames per tick rate, so if I record a tornado and afterward a whirwind, their ticks will be separated by the exact same amount of frames. I´m not sure how exactly this works out with the 3 seconds duration for tornadoes (I believe the exact tornado duration = number of ticks * frame length / 60 but that doesn´t matter.

Yeah they tick at the same frequency with the same aps breakpoints.

2. Damage-wise, it´s difficult to gauge the % because you can´t say that you´re hitting each target with WW for X seconds with Y tornadoes for Z seconds.

**You have to calculate 2 situations.**

A.

Bash a target with

**main hand**and start sprinting and WWing:

-> sprint uses the

**damage**and tick

**frequency**of

**main hand**

-> ww

**alternates**the

**damage**of both weapons but uses the tick

**frequency**(and fury cost) of the

**off-hand**

B.

Bash a target with

**off-hand**and start sprinting and WWing:

-> sprint uses the

**damage**of

**main hand**but the tick

**frequency**of the

**off-hand**

-> ww

**alternates**the

**damage**of both weapons but uses the tick

**frequency**(and fury cost) of the

**main hand**

Yep, this is how Blizzard mind...plays us :)

Basically what will do more damage:

60k MH, 30k OH, 26 ticks for both vs

50k MH 40k OH, 26 ticks for both

Could there be rough formula for true damage output based on MH damage, OH damage, and ticks for both? At the moment, the DPS number on the character sheet is not at all representative of true damage output because it doesn't weight OH damage and doesn't value ias as much as it should even though both skills depend on ias.

Perhaps something like:

(MH ∅ * T1) + (OH ∅ * T2 *.35 )

where ∅ is the average damage of the weapon before IAS is factored.

where T1 is ticks of 1st weapon and T2 is ticks of second weapon.

And assuming you can consistently hit things with both ww and RLTW would this be a decently accurate formula?

Ur definitely one of few ppl on this forum whose work and research helped barbs throughout the game...

Again Great Job!!

Mind....blown

Seriously though, I look at this topic all the time, thank you.

Seriously though, I look at this topic all the time, thank you.

**I´ve updated and revamped the first post**. It has all the new info including the exact game mechanics. Now that I also included WW mechanics, the topic itself has been renamed.

It´s written as if 1.0.5 was there already, so keep that in mind. The main focus of this topic is the tick frequency and that one stayed the same so it should not cause any trouble.

Feel free to post any mistakes or errors you´ll find, or if a part or sentence is unclear or difficults to understand.

Note that English is not my native language (I´m from Slovakia) but I´m around gaming forums for many years which improved my language skills so hopefully there´s no stuff that hurts your eyes...

@ Lorenze: Not sure what kind of formula you want me to create (btw I´m no math freak). Also where does your 0.35 come from in your formula?

I think I would start with something like this:

damage per tick = (0.2 MH dmg * number of tornadoes) + ((0.4833 * (MH dmg + OH dmg / 2))

You then multiply by tick frequency (per sec) to get dps.

I´ve updated and revamped the first post. It has all the new info including the exact game mechanics. Now that I also included WW mechanics, the topic itself has been renamed.

It´s written as if 1.0.5 was there already, so keep that in mind. The main focus of this topic is the tick frequency and that one stayed the same so it should not cause any trouble.

Feel free to post any mistakes or errors you´ll find, or if a part or sentence is unclear or difficults to understand.

Note that English is not my native language (I´m from Slovakia) but I´m around gaming forums for many years which improved my language skills so hopefully there´s no stuff that hurts your eyes...

@ Lorenze: Not sure what kind of formula you want me to create (btw I´m no math freak). Also where does your 0.35 come from in your formula?

I think I would start with something like this:

damage per tick = (0.2 MH dmg * number of tornadoes) + ((0.4833 * (MH dmg + OH dmg / 2))

You then multiply by tick frequency (per sec) to get dps.

You just acknowledged Lorenze. I'm pretty sure he's going to be insufferably happy for the rest of his Diablo 3 career.

@ Lorenze: Not sure what kind of formula you want me to create (btw I´m no math freak). Also where does your 0.35 come from in your formula?

I think I would start with something like this:

damage per tick = (0.2 MH dmg * number of tornadoes) + ((0.4833 * (MH dmg + OH dmg / 2))

You then multiply by tick frequency (per sec) to get dps.

.35 is a somewhat rough estimate of the relative damage contribution of the OH raw dmg when compared to the sum of all dmg (RLTW , MH WW , OH WW). My goal is to create a generalized formula for comparing true damage outputs between players while factoring in ticks and the effects of a OH with lots of MH boosts like CD/str vs one where the OH has less support stats and more dps. This is not a true science like what you're doing, its more like theorycrafting.

Based on your formula I would have:

((.2*64591 *5) + (.4833 * 93274.5) )* 8.57 or

939876

Under wotb and BR.

Im curious why you choose a .2 coeff and .4833 coeff for ww and nado dmg?

If anyone else is curious you can get your average mh and oh damage from uploading into this site:

http://www.d3rawr.com/c

Please read the first post. 0.2 because you know, one tornado tick does 20% base weapon damage, one whirlwind tick does 145%/3 (48.33%) weapon damage. And by number of tornadoes I didn´t mean number of ticks (26 in your formula) but how many of those spinning air things are hitting the target :)

EDIT: If you use those kinds of calculators (unable to calc by yourself), use the average damage per hit value (20% of the value for tornado and 48.33% for WW ticks) and then multiply the result by tick frequency (ticks per second) to get DPS.

Excellent information and thread. Thank you! Sticky requested.

Please read the first post. 0.2 because you know, one tornado tick does 20% base weapon damage, one whirlwind tick does 145%/3 (48.33%) weapon damage. And by number of tornadoes I didn´t mean number of ticks (26 in your formula) but how many of those spinning air things are hitting the target :)

EDIT: If you use those kinds of calculators (unable to calc by yourself), use the average damage per hit value (20% of the value for tornado and 48.33% for WW ticks) and then multiply the result by tick frequency (ticks per second) to get DPS.

While somewhat high, it certainly makes more sense than the number on the character sheet, thank you! I suppose its optimistic to say all 5 tornadoes are hitting so maybe a standardized value of 3.5 or so would make more sense since that is about how many you will have on an elite pack.

Can you confirm that the tooltip for RLTW is wrong? It says 60% over 3 seconds, but you're saying 20% per tick, not 20% per second for damage.

No you have to read the tooltips with caution. Basically they either tell you how much damage the skill does at 1.00 aps in 1 second or what the total damage they do over x seconds is.

"Tornadoes rage in your wake, each one inflicting 60% weapon damage as physical for 3 seconds to nearby enemies."

That´s the 1.0.4 tooltip, I can´t check the PTR one because error 12 is back.

If you look at it the way I described then it is true that RLTW does 60% weapon damage per second at 1.00 aps (3 ticks doing 20% weapon damage) over a period of 3 seconds. In the case of 1.00 aps, it indeed does 60% dps.

You may also look at it in a totally different way and compare (3 x 60% * aps) to (20% * tornado ticks)

At 2.0 aps you would get (180% * 2.0 = 360%) to (20% * 20 = 400%). The first one is a rough calculation if you didn´t know the exact mechanics, the second one is the exact calculation - how the skill actually works and that´s why I´d always calculate tornado damage the second (accurate) way.

You have to consider the fact that it´s impossible to include the game mechanics of such a complex skill into one sentence and maybe the developers don´t want to reveal all the stuff at this point (or ever)...or they think hey, there´s some freaks with no lives who will figure it out anyway and the majority doesn´t care, it´s flashy and all and stuff explodes and flies around the screen and it´s not like we´re lying, it does 60% weapon damage (at 1.00 aps) and works 3 seconds.

So instead of arguing whether the wording of a skill is exact, apply 20% weapon damage per tick times number of tornado ticks (according to the chart) if you want an accurate calculation of the damage your tornadoes do. If you don´t care about accuracy but want rough estimates, go with (3 * 60% * aps).

I´ll repeat it again. The exact game mechanics of tornadoes is applying 20% weapon damage ticks X times for 3 seconds based on the aps value. Even more exactly, 20% weapon damage ticks each X frames for 3 seconds based on the aps value. The total tornado damage roughly equals to 180% dps but certain breakpoints may actually do slightly more damage than that if you calculate the exact damage.

Edit: I found the thread by Lorenze, which utilizes your formulas and helped me immensely to assess which off hand would be an upgrade

If only mods would delete Trade threads from class forums, maybe we would see more relevant topics like this.

I'm in awe of the work that has gone into this thread, thank you so much! How about the practical gearing consequences? What APS are we shooting for in 1.0.5?

Has anyone been able to determine where the sweet spot is in terms of

APS as a function of fury generation (RLTW)

vs.

APS as a function of fury expenditure (WW)?

Or in other words: which APS will be most beneficial to ToC uptime?

I desperately fail at math so I need help with this :D

iratepirate actually if on thursday/friday last week the PTR wasn´t wiped alongside the error 12 fix that many EU players get (including me), I´d have already figured out the formula for WW fury cost scaling with aps in 1.0.5 (working with Twister on this one)...hopefully tomorrow 1.0.5 is coming so it should be clear how this works within a few days.

Basically get as much CH and aps as you can (as if this wasn´t already known). It could´ve been a bit of a problem in 1.0.4 if you spammed WW too much (without hitting targets) with the linear fury cost, but now you´ll eat just 2 or slightly less fury per tick at higher aps values compared to 5.4-5.5 in 1.0.4 which is a huge difference. Plus the more aps the more ticks you get from tornadoes which means more chances to CH and proc into the fray. The problem against elite packs (judging by my few PTR tests) is that you don´t burn fury fast enough. On the other hand, against trash monsters you just run through, tornadoes don´t generate as much as they did before.

I´ll repeat myself, get as much CH and aps and then find the best MP level for you.

By the way, by figuring out the mechanics of whirlwind, I now have they key to breakpoints for all the channeling skills and other skills that scale with aps in the game, which I confirmed over the weekend with Strafe (DH). I´ll probably post about it when 1.0.5 comes out in the appropriate class forums, although I´m unfamiliar with monk/wizard/WD skills so I would have to know which skills come in mind...not that it should bother barbs.