Item *Hunt* Versus Item *Grind*. Thoughts?

General Discussion
There is no item hunt in diablo 3 because the drop rate of any individual thing is astronomically low, i.e. you will NEVER be able to say "okay i'm going to farm [item x]" and actually get one to drop in a reasonable time in a certain area.

You might literally grow old and die before you see a specific item drop you're looking for.. the whole game is tuned around the auction house, so the best we can hope for is hunting for ANY valuable item to sell and buy gear with the profits.. that takes a lot out of the hunting process IMO, you will never get the satisfaction of seeing something you really want drop, or knowing you get to use items you farmed items yourself.. 9/10 of the items you use will be bought from the AH.

+1 op..... great post
I disagree with your terminology about the grind being the determining factor in items being boring.

I don't know if you played WoW but the legendary and epic items gave you tons of other bonuses besides just +to stats. The items were interesting, compelling, and diverse just like the items in D2. Although +stats was an essential "wall" you had to hit before you could progress, the items still had compelling things besides stats. (At least up until Cata which is where I quit)

The fact is the Diablo 3 items are just straight boring. There's no other word for it.

Also in WoW you pretty much had to raid for most of the good PvE items. And in a raid every boss had a pretty high chance to drop something you need the first couple times through, when only a few people in your class roll on it, it gave you a pretty high chance of getting a nice upgrade every time you go into a raid even though there was 25 people rolling on stuff.

The AH in WoW was hardly a place to get good armor or weapon upgrades.

So the truth is I think the D3 model is completely different from the MMO grind and the ARPG grind. It's just a bad model all its own.
08/02/2012 09:28 PMPosted by Highborne
- Do you prefer a "hunt" or a "grind"?

Item Hunt, with diverse character builds which are unorthodox (as you said WW Sin, Singer Barb, Auradin, Enchant Sorc, 2 handers vs 1 handers, etc.)

- Do you think that endgame should be the major focus of gear and gameplay?

Gameplay only, gear should be able to be found without having to go into "end game". End game should consist of challenges and achievements for these challenges, while awarding the same gear you could grind in a Hell like mode with no better chance of finding it in the "end game".

- Is it okay for playing the AH to be a better means of progression than playing the game?

If you spend more time surfing the AH than playing, the purpose of the AH is incorrect.
AH should be there to facilitate trading, not the best way to "farm" for gold to buy better items. In short, Gold should not be how you utilize trading or at least not be the only way to buy items.
Need the ability to post items and an ISO whereby a user can contact the seller and offer and item to trade.

- If you could, how would you change the loot system we have at present?

- Rares need to be the potentially best items in the game, nobody contests this.

- Rares should be totally random as they are now, you could find an amazing rare weapon with awesome mods except really low damage, that is fine.

- However, legendary/set items need to be the gap between bad rares and amazing rares. Legendary/set items need to have more consistent stats and damage so when people find them they know they are useful and can be traded for decent items.

- Legendary items should have more set affixes at high levels (ie DPS of best rare 1 hander = 1400, typical 1 hand legendary should be between 1000-1250), and guarantee high amounts of other affixes besides DPS.
I should not find a legendary item that someone that is crappy because it has X affix.

- Legendary/Set items need to drop more frequently to bridge the gap and allow people to progress at a more steady pace in terms of Hell mode and maybe the first few challenges.

- Lower level legendary items should be useful even to level 60 characters...this is nearly impossible due to how DPS and survivability is determined in D3 but it would add a ton of variety.

- Class items need consistency, such as fist weapons/spirit stones always have dex, mighty weapons/belts have str, etc. They should never spawn with other class' primary affix.

I hope Blizzard reads this thread.

They read most threads how do you think they delete them so fast?

When you see the speed with which they delete threads, it makes you really ashamed of the speed at which they respond to threads.
Another big problem has to do with the total lack of reason to roll alts. We really need ladder resets or some other reason to roll new characters - lots of gear wasted.
Here is an example of a Legendary item which I would like to find.

Fist of Heaven
Heaven Hand Fist Weapon
927.9 - 970.0 Damage Per Second
357 - 848 Damage
1.54 - 1.61 Attacks per Second
Item Level: 63
Unique Equipped
+250 - 600 Holy Damage
3 - 5% Life Steal
175 - 250 Dexterity
10 - 15% Increased Attack Speed
3 Spirit Regeneration Per Second
10% Chance per Hit call down a Fist of Heaven damaging your opponent and shooting out 6 bolts of holy energy dealing damage to enemies they strike and healing friendly players.
1 Socket

It has many affixes.
It has a unique affix (the chance to cast Fist of Heavens).
It has my primary stat
Guarenteed IAS, Dex, Life Steal, Socket and Holy Damage.

The DPS is not amazing, but it is high.

This is how they should look.

Thanks, yeah, I'm going to do a thread a little later for actual legendary suggestions.
And here it is! Feel free to chuck this up there :).
wouldnt an item grind be wow..
and item hunt be diablo

in wow, you grind a gurantted or specific item through things such as, Points, reputation, and even standardized loot that can but may not neccasarly drop off a boss.

Whereas a hunt is like diablo, your hunting loot, nothing in specific, nothing can be gurantted.

With diablos system of randomized loot, at first its like 'oh cool this is refreshing' when your use to playing wow or other games that have the same gurantted items. But then you realise with millions of players all with the same loot system and an AH dependant on superior items, the chances of you getting anything great or highly valued have to be extremely small or everyones going to have the best stuff.

Im annoyed with this game and so are others because of the very small chance of getting anything of value [ major upgraded / rmah material ] but thats the way it has to be, considering.

- theres a limited amount of auction houses and usualy only 1 viable AH depending on your location so unlike wow, all the loot in the game is being conjested into few auctionhouses
[one of the less talked about reasons the AH isnt as player-approval as it could be]

-We all want something of value, but nothing would have value if we all had it

i believe diablos loot system could of been fun and if done right the item hunting could of been much more rewarding as an item hunt if the loot was more standardized

Example - two ilvl 63 gauntlets, for example purposes lets say it had 1 affix, vitatlity.
now for the rolls on the affix, it should be like:

vit roll = 150-250
[and so on for other affixes]

This means, you still had to roll for the ilvl, slot, affix, but the actual numbers are in a range.
however this would in theory limit the amount of crap items, which might be bad considering the points made earlier. Yet for perfect optimization this would still be difficult, just not as difficult

anyway none of this matters, all i want, all i really want, is a 0 bot diablo

edit : Though the range roll would limit crap items by todays standards, those lowered rolled 150-170's will start to be considered crap, but oh well at least they're a massive improvment to the crap we see now
I'd completely revise the loot system given the option. Unfortunately, I think I'd change it so much that it didn't resemble Diablo 2 enough for the big fans.

I'd give each character a library of stats. As they found loot for each slot they'd be able to break that loot down and add the stats to their library. Whenever they found a new piece of gear with that stat on it, they could use the library values for the stats that were affixed.

This loot system would make the loot grind more enduring since you would only need one decent stat on a piece of loot for it to be valuable to you in some way. It would also make gear with poor stats useful provided it had the correct stats on it. This would allow for more experimentation with loot as well as provide a deep farming and collection game.

It would also provide for a more gradual increase in a players abilities, since they wouldn't be gaining increases in huge bursts. Legendaries and set items would also be more appealing for their unique affix combinations more than for their specific values.

thats a really interesting idea

Heh, feel free to like it and tell your friends to like it. We do need some sort of over haul of the antique loot system this game is running off of.
A ladder system would fix a lot of problems if drop rates were better & rolls were more tuned to items levels & characters. Wipe the server every 1 or 2 months so every1 on it is back to L1 with nothing. By making item drops & rolls better, all levels in Inferno could even be made harder if good drops, rares, were found in act3 & act 4 Hell. Then the Legendary/Set items could be the step up from rares & hunting for those is what players will need to get you to the end of Inferno. In a sense making Inferno a mini game of it's own.
08/02/2012 11:44 PMPosted by Highborne
I thought Ladders would be fun, but the reason for ladders (level 99 and ladder specific items) just has no place in it would be a clumsy fix.

Mm. I'm still trying to think of a way to make ladders work in D3.
I agree with OP. I would rather like a hunt than a grind. I also agree that the AHs should supplement gear find and customization rather than be the best way to "farm" or "play" to get gear. The OP's line that they feel they are not playing the game optimally hits home. I hate farming when I know I can be AH flipping or stalking and be more likely to make more gold or get an upgrade that way instead of actually killing monsters.

The skill point thing is huge. You have to be able to choose and plan out and map out your character. It is an aRPG after all. Give me more RPG back. I want to have to make choices that affect my character's play style and function that are somewhat permanent, meaningful and special.

Why in the world is everything DPS? That is soooo frustrating. Why can't one or two skills per class be based on Int or Dex or Str? Like a spell that is dmg = to int multiplied by x or a barbarian move that does damage based on str amount? THis way, a crappy 200 dps weapon that has 400 int would actually be useful to a wizard who isn't hacking and slashing with his sword but using the stat boost on the int to create gobs of damage. The way the system works the amount of useless weapons in the game is atrocious. I don't have concrete numbers or data but I know I have never and will never equip a weapon that that is ilvl 62 or lower once a character gets to level 60. Even my lower level alts are sporting ilvl 63s with lower level requirement affixes. No way. Just isn't going to happen with how the game is played currently. That is just sad.

We need more diversity. We need more fun. Less playing for nothing (no gear/no more leveling after 60). It feels like I'm wasting my time rather than having fun. That sucks.

Here are my contributions to making better gear:

1) make lvl minimums and other conditions to use gear that work to open design space. Here is an example. Have loot drops that encourage multi play in unique ways. Consider something like "slave" or "companion" gear. Your lvl 60 can't equip the ring, but you can trade to another player who is not lvl 60 and that player can only equip the ring when playing in your party and only up to level 60. Once that character turns 60 the original player gets the ring back to trade to another slave player. The ring should give insane stat bonuses that would allow a low level character to hang with the lvl 60. The most powerful would allow a player at a very low level to farm alongside another player in inferno but would also grant gobs of exp so that the player levels quickly and loses the god power feeling from the unique item and must give it back after reaching level 60 fairly quickly. This would encourage multiplay, make is special, make unique game states that are fun, and of course create tension between leveling up and farming.

2) make gear that gains levels as you gain levels. Have gear that gains experience as you do and the player then can make choices in the gear. The gear will naturally add a few points to each of its affixes like go from 10 dex to 13 dex, 10 vit to 13 vit, etc and at certain threshold levels the players would get to choose a new affix to build up and level into the gear, like at level thirty the player adds all res of 5 and then next level goes up to 7 and then 9 and then by level 40 you add another affix, like plus 50 armor and it levels up to 60 and then 70 etc. Make the gear bind on equip and then unbind when the gear reaches it's maximum level so that the player can then trade or sell the gear they leveled up to make godly. This way the players get choices in their gear, level up the gear, profit from the gear via playing to make it max level, and then everybody can have access to the best gear if they earn it by leveling it up. You can only level one gear up at a time to limit abuse. This can be used to also combat botters since they would have to have bots leveling up gear inefficiently rather than just maxing mf or gf and doing simple bot runs. This would also create a powerful gear catergory that botters really couldn't tap into or exploit since the best level up gears are only good once they reach maximum level, meaning that time has to be invested in the gear before it could be turned around for a profit. You can't stop botters but you can slow them down. Funnel them towards the gold grind or other areas of the game. You need to get creative to find ways to make certain parts of the game inaccessible to them and only open to legit players. It can be done. It must be done.

3) We need some wiggle room with gear. We need the enchantress back to have some sort of control to craft or modify gear slightly to our needs. It is sooo frustrating to find a decent piece of gear that could have been so much better with just a few tweaks, sometimes just one small tweak. Let us do that, even if limited and even if expensive. Make it a quest reward or something that would be inaccesible to botters so that botters couldn't just craft gear and mod gear to sell. This should function as a reward reserved for real, legit players sitting at the keyboad and mouse. Maybe even bind on enchant or prohibit the sale or trade of modified gear(though I personally would like that gear to be tradable).

4) How about a sliding scale options menu? Slide the scale to weapons, or to helms or to certain categories, like gf and mf or defensive or offensive, or monk or DH, that way the player can directly influence some of the RNG. For example, slding the scale towards weapons would make more weapons drop but still wouldn't gurantee a good drop, just the chance for a good weapons since your rare drops are now consisting of more weapons. Or how about sliding your scale to jewlery. Yes this might seem abusable, but the market has to level out. If all the players are focused on finding jewelry that item would be saturated in the market and the rarer items would raise in value. Plus, people will have to change their drop categories in order to completely load out their characters. In other words let the market correct itself by letting players farm for what they want, rather than proactively trying to fix the market by prohibiting players from doing what they want to do.

I dunno. Just fix the game already. I want to play more and more, but I keep putting the game down as it is. Get creative. It's your job. Look to Wizards of the Coast and Magic the gathering. They managed to get that game together. Only took them 16 years, but now they have a sustainable fan base that eats up their three months at a time product cycle. Why can't you do that with Diablo 3? New expansion. New companion gear! Play with your friends in a whole new way! make tons of money...three months later, level gear! Play with gear that you can shape into your dream equipment! Make tons of money...three months later...New loot drop slding scale. Farm smart. Farm for the gear you need! Make tons of money... rinse, repeat.

make it fun. If you are worried about the game dying or not making any money, you have the control. You make the new content. Just make the new content worth playing over and over again and you won't have to worry about the playerbase steadly getting stronger and stronger.
I don't want to repost all of what grim said, but these are some amazing ideas here.
They need to up the drop rates on legendaries indeed. The best way to improve the item hunt experience would be to nerf the health of inferno monsters and remove enrage timers. Inferno should be a place to gear up not an end game. Both of those things are designed to limit progression in the game artificially and also to slow down the gearing up progress.

If you don't use the ah your dps will always be so poor that you will end up having to kite for 2-3 mins each elite and due to scripted boss fights etc sometimes take 10-20 mins to down them.

Compared to d2 where a full level 85 area clear would be 1-2 mins and same with a baal fight. 10x faster = 10 x more opportunity for better drops.

They need to go back to the resistances/immunities stuff as well so that there will be an incentive to co-operate when people find an immune to physical mob that dh just can't plough through easily but a wd can.

The d2 affix system was quite elegant and effective at limiting progression without at any point becoming a chore to kill monsters unless you had like unupgraded nightmare items or something.
There is no item hunt in diablo 3 because the drop rate of any individual thing is astronomically low, i.e. you will NEVER be able to say "okay i'm going to farm [item x]" and actually get one to drop in a reasonable time in a certain area.

You might literally grow old and die before you see a specific item drop you're looking for.. the whole game is tuned around the auction house, so the best we can hope for is hunting for ANY valuable item to sell and buy gear with the profits.. that takes a lot out of the hunting process IMO, you will never get the satisfaction of seeing something you really want drop, or knowing you get to use items you farmed items yourself.. 9/10 of the items you use will be bought from the AH.

So true!
Let me add, that in 300h of playing i didn't even find 1 valuable item (above 2.5 mil) let aside any set items. I've heard they are in the game.. but where

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