[Mechanics] Monk Spirit Generators

Monk
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For simplicity and so that we can even continue to have a conversation, pretend my rune suggestion does the following:

FoF now does 140% damage on the first hit and then 10% more damage with each successive hit. This bonus caps at 60% and resets after 1 second of not attacking

New damage structure: 140-150-160-170-180-190-200-200-200-200...ect.
Average of first 7 hits: 170%
Theoretical max average: ~200%

This is roughly equivalent to your 175% flat damage rune against monsters that take ~7 seconds to kill when using a 1.00 attack speed weapon. :D

That's a very interesting idea, but really, 7 seconds??!!! That's terrible performance for an aggressive rune! Most fights take place in less than 3 seconds, so even with an attack speed of 2.00, the bonus damage still wouldn't be significantly better than 175% flat damage due to damage deviations in critical hit damage. In practice, if it takes longer than 3 seconds to kill a mob, then you should resort to a burst damage skill instead.

Also, as attack speed increases, the skill starts converting more into a flat damage rune. So really, this isn't much different than a simple flat damage rune, and the damage bonus per hit mechanic becomes nothing more than a gimmick. In fact, having a heavy reliance on attack speed forces the player to dual wield. But a flat damage increase is equally good for dual wield, 1-hand with shield, and 2-hand players. This would improve gear diversity.

Just keep in mind that Fists of Fury has an additional effect: It's teleport on attack. This is only used for engaging the enemy quickly, so it is an aggressive move. A flat damage increase tends for faster gameplay and has good synergy with the teleport. A stacking DoT or damage per hit bonus slows down gameplay, making poorer synergy with the teleport.

A big reason why I suggested the flat damage increase over the DoT is to have better synergy with the teleport and to give Way of the Hundred Fists a second option that felt fast, but fast in a different way than Blazing Fists. If Fists of Fury didn't have the teleport, I actually would have suggested increasing the DoT further since mobility wouldn't matter as much in that case.

Actually, I should be more clear about one thing: Fists of Fury isn't a simple damage rune! It has the additional teleport effect, which changes the way it's used over the other WotHF runes. Compare this to Mangle, which is used in exactly the same way as all the other Crippling Wave runes. So Fists of Fury does have additional complexity already, and making the rune deal flat damage instead of DoT doesn't intrude on its existing complexity. In fact, it enhances it.

I really don't agree with giving WotHF a free teleport as part of the base skill (and FoT for that matter). Using mobility skills like Fleet Footed, Tempest Rush or Dashing Strike is a part of the game, and if players choose not to use them, then that's their choice. The main problem is not that the Spirit generator skills lack mobility, it's that the other skills lack mobility! These are what should be buffed. Giving teleports to a bunch of Spirit generators is nothing more than a band-aid fix to the class that only makes the Spirit generators, less interesting, not more.

10/12/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Druin
See the difference? The first scenario ignores skill synergy, which can lead to overpowered or underpowered combinations, which then degenerates into a loss of build diversity, which is what we Monks suffer from now. The second scenario keeps skill synergy in mind, which then promotes build diversity because players can choose which skills they want to use to fulfill their strategy. Ideally, there should be multiple skills that can fulfill the same goals to give players choices. If we take the single-target damage scenario, this can be fulfilled by either Sweeping Wind / Cyclone or Exploding Palm / The Flesh is Weak. But these two skills operate very differently, so this also changes the player's play style. This is what real choice is.


Of course I think of skill synergies when I propose changes. They would be horrible changes otherwise.

This is why I give proc-coefficient data AND data on how the skill will effect single target damage AND multiple target damage.

I then suggest numbers that balance things between these different variables giving the edge to specific skills in certain situations based on what I think the spirit of the rune is.

I apologize if I might have offended you with that statement. It was not my intention. I do know that you keep class balance in mind, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place!

So… proc coefficients are dead simple for Monks. It all breaks down into SW/Cyclone spawn rate and LoH/LS leech per attack. Maybe you have some crowd control gear or Legendary weapon that has some proc effect. Unfortunately, the Monk doesn't have much more than that in terms of proc-worthy moves. This is really an issue with all the other skills, not of the Spirit generators themselves.

This can be seen as either:
1. Good (the Monk class is proc independent, so gear diversity improves and skill diversity increases because there is no need to worry about procs)
2. Bad (the Monk class is proc dependent, so gear costs increase and skill diversity decreases because you can only proc a few things)

As of right now, I'm personally leaning towards #2, Bad. I think that Monks need more proc options on the other skills, because all the really good proc effects right now (besides SW/Cyclone) are completely gear dependent. Skills like Mantra of Healing / Boon of Inspiration would be a good candidate to buff. However, changing other skills is a story for another time...

That said, every Spirit generator skill should have a high proc rune. Currently, the only truly high proc rune is Thunderclap. For the other Spirit generators, I've suggested Hands of Lightning for Way of the Hundred Fists, and Tsunami for Crippling Wave. In my next review, I'll be discussing Deadly Reach, but as a preview, I believe that Piercing Trident should be the high proc rune for that skill. At the same time, each Spirit generator skill should have at most, only 1 high proc rune to better encourage build diversity.

Another reason why I suggested dropping the DoT on Fists of Fury is because of the double proc it gives. I believe that Fists of Fury, the big damage rune, shouldn't have such an ability when it already has high damage and fast teleport. Keeping the DoT would make Fists of Fury too similar to Thunderclap in terms of procs, and I believe it's crucial to keep the two skills from becoming clones of each other. Otherwise, the player's choice comes down to: "Which one works better? Oh, FoT/TC works better? Okay, I'll use that!" And then no one cares about Fists of Fury, the lesser Thunderclap. That discourages build diversity.

So to make the two runes distinct, I gave Fists of Fury an even bigger damage increase then usual, but dropped the proc rate. Now players have a clearer choice on whether to go proc or go raw damage. This encourages build diversity.

My point here is:
Anything that is a "synergy" with a flat damage rune, is also a "synergy" with every other damage dealing ability in the game because there is nothing intrinsically different about flat damage.
The same goes for weaknesses. There is no weakness to dealing more flat damage that is not ALSO a weakness of dealing flat damage + effect.

Actually, if the majority of runes DO have an effect, then the runes that DON'T have an effect can be seen as a weakness unto itself. Then the player's choice comes down to whether to use a versatile ability or a focused ability.

A versatile ability should useful in many scenarios, but should not excel or fail at any particular scenario either. So it's the player's job to choose synergistic skills to make multiple skills excel at fulfilling the main strategy.

A focused ability should be strong in only a few scenarios, but should become weak in the majority of scenarios. It's the player's job to choose supporting skills that force a favorable scenario as often as possible for the focused ability to maximize its usefulness.

Let's take Crippling Wave as an example:

Breaking Wave is a versatile ability. It does better damage than the other runes (with the exception of Mangle, and arguably Tsunami), and it also has the debuff effect, which makes it useful in any scenario involving damage. However, it doesn't deal as much damage as a focused damage dealer like Mangle, so players need to choose which damage skills to take advantage of Breaking Wave's effect.

Mangle is a focused ability. It does the best damage over all the other runes, but has no additional effects, making it the one-trick pony of the group. It is only capable of dealing excellent AOE damage, and less so single-target damage. However, if the player chooses good skills to complement Mangle, its damage will tear mobs to pieces just as fast as FoT/TC. In one scenario, it works even better than FoT/TC.

(If you're wondering why I suggested a damage buff for Mangle despite what I just said: That's because Mangle excels over FoT/TC in only one scenario -- a tight AOE surround. So because FoT/TC beats Mangle in many more scenarios than Mangle beats or equals FoT/TC, this is why Mangle needs a buff to better equalize the playing field.)

10/12/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Druin
"Increases damage to 140% weapon damage. Extends the first and second hits to 25 yards, and extends the third hit to 35 yards."


Again, this is a change to TWO variables and would be much more interesting than a simple flat damage rune. (see my piercing trident proposal)

This is not what you are suggesting for WotHF:FoF and IS what I am suggesting.

With the range increase, and no other effect, suddenly Foresight becomes much more interesting and opens up a lot of new possibilities!


I will show you what that sentance would look like for my FoF proposal:

With the damage distribution change, and no other effect, suddenly Fists of Fury becomes much more interesting and opens up a lot of new possibilities!

You're missing something very key here with what I'm suggesting. I never suggested the flat damage increase alone. I also suggested increasing the animation speed of the teleport. This is a very important change as well.

Here's reality: Let's say that a DoT or damage per hit bonus were put into effect. What would I do? I would keep attacking the same target until someone dies, either it or me. That's because maximizing Fists of Fury's effect involves continuous attacking the same target, which then reduces your mobility. This is not a versatile usage of the skill. And while these changes may seem good at first, they aren't practical in practice. If I encountered a monster that took longer than 3 seconds to kill, I would burst damage it down. But the moment I do this, I start losing my bonuses. If I were using Fists of Fury on a really tough single target, I would simply attack them until I got my full bonus, then start cycling burst damage and direct attacks until the target was dead. That's all your Fists of Fury is capable of. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But if the flat damage increase were used, now we get options! You can choose to keep attacking the same target as usual, but you can also choose hit-and run (using the teleport to reengage) without fear that your damage bonus will drop. You can also pull off divide-and-conquer strategies using Lashing Tail Kick / Sweeping Armada. Just like with FoT/TC, you LTK the mobs, then teleport onto the scattered mobs one at a time to pick them off. Since Fists of Fury has a higher damage, this would be better than FoT/TC for this particular strategy. With DoT or damage per hit bonuses, the divide-and-conquer strategy would be weaker. Of course, all three of these usage cases can work in both single-target and AOE damage cases.

10/12/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Druin
Here's my final argument: You're assuming that something like Crippling Wave / Mangle lacks choice because its too simple. But it does have choices. Consider Mangle's lack of mobility and the need for a complementary skill to make up for this. A player can choose to negate the mobility weakness with Cyclone Strike. Or they can choose to rushdown with Fleet Footed. Or they can complement the attack range with Deadly Reach. Or they can choose to lower the enemy movement speed with Tempest Rush. Each of these four options involves significant changes to play style. So don't you say that simple runes lack player choice, because that's simply not true.


I think this is the core of this entire disagreement.

I do not believe that simple runes lack player choice. I 100% agree with your above example of mangle's weaknesses and the possible ways to solve them.

A flat damage rune is MUCH better, for player choice, than no rune at all.

However, a flat damage rune does promote LESS player choice than a complex damage rune.

Both fulfill the same roll: Increase damage.
One stops there.
One goes a step further so there is another element to take into consideration.

Again, I agree that flat damage runes do promote player choice.

My entire point is that they promote LESS player choice than complex damage runes.

Yes, but you believe that ALL runes need to have some special effect. While it is true that many runes should have a special effect, part of increasing player choices is to have very focused runes available. And if that focused ability is a flat damage increase, then so be it.

I think I'm beginning to realize the thinking is here: You think that "choice" is in how players use the rune once it's picked. And yes, that is a very important way to see it. However, there's another angle to see this from. Another way to see "choice" is in how players are picking the rune to begin with. One of those choices in picking runes is dropping versatility in usage to gain better performance in one key area. While this may put the player at a disadvantage if their are outside their ideal scenario, this is a risk players take on as a choice. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Strikerdude,

I am sooooooooooooooo happy about your post.

I truly wasn't arguing my point to be obstinate, I just quite honestly didn't see your side of things.

Whatever you changed about your method of communicating the exact same idea completely worked this time. Reading your above post, I can totally see your side of things and I agree with most of them.

Yay!

That's a very interesting idea, but really, 7 seconds??!!! That's terrible performance for an aggressive rune! Most fights take place in less than 3 seconds, so even with an attack speed of 2.00, the bonus damage still wouldn't be significantly better than 175% flat damage due to damage deviations in critical hit damage. In practice, if it takes longer than 3 seconds to kill a mob, then you should resort to a burst damage skill instead.


In MP10 it took me 20 minutes of nearly continuous attacking to kill the Uber Skeleton King. I would have LOVED to use a skill that did more damage than FoT:TC no matter what the other drawbacks in this situation! :D

(Note: a flat damage WotHF would have been just as good as a stacking DoT WotHF ... as long as it was more damage, just pointing out, long fights do exist!)

Also, as attack speed increases, the skill starts converting more into a flat damage rune. So really, this isn't much different than a simple flat damage rune, and the damage bonus per hit mechanic becomes nothing more than a gimmick. In fact, having a heavy reliance on attack speed forces the player to dual wield. But a flat damage increase is equally good for dual wield, 1-hand with shield, and 2-hand players. This would improve gear diversity.


This would be solved by it actually being a stacking DoT instead of the wacky example I used to parse it into an "almost flat damage rune."
With the DoT version you would gain the benefit of damage happening while you weren't attacking.

I 100% concede that it would further pigeonhole monks into attack speed builds. :(

Just keep in mind that Fists of Fury has an additional effect: It's teleport on attack. This is only used for engaging the enemy quickly, so it is an aggressive move. A flat damage increase tends for faster gameplay and has good synergy with the teleport. A stacking DoT or damage per hit bonus slows down gameplay, making poorer synergy with the teleport.


My recommendations involve giving that teleport to all WotHF runes for the sake of "monks should be agile." And the fact that the teleport is such a large asset that it would be extremely difficult to compete as a rune w/o the teleport.

DoT stacking + teleport is bad synergy when it comes to switching targets frequently. (promoted by teleport, disliked by DoT stacking)

However, DoT stacking + teleport is good synergy when it comes to sticking to a moving target. (promoted by teleport, promoted by DoT stacking)

Actually, I should be more clear about one thing: Fists of Fury isn't a simple damage rune! It has the additional teleport effect, which changes the way it's used over the other WotHF runes. Compare this to Mangle, which is used in exactly the same way as all the other Crippling Wave runes. So Fists of Fury does have additional complexity already, and making the rune deal flat damage instead of DoT doesn't intrude on its existing complexity. In fact, it enhances it.


This is probably causing A LOT of our headache here.

I am discussing all this based on my proposed "all WotHF runes get the teleport!"

If only FoF has the teleport, I 1000000000% it being a flat damage rune.

I really don't agree with giving WotHF a free teleport as part of the base skill (and FoT for that matter). Using mobility skills like Fleet Footed, Tempest Rush or Dashing Strike is a part of the game, and if players choose not to use them, then that's their choice. The main problem is not that the Spirit generator skills lack mobility, it's that the other skills lack mobility! These are what should be buffed. Giving teleports to a bunch of Spirit generators is nothing more than a band-aid fix to the class that only makes the Spirit generators, less interesting, not more.


This I have to vehemently disagree with!

I currently use both FoT:TC AND Tempest Rush and I can't imagine giving either up.

The movement of a monk should feel fluid and quick. Having JUST TR feels cumbersome and having JUST TC feels cumbersome.

I think that the teleport on TC and FoF exemplify what the monk class needs MORE of not less.

I think they are extremely fun and, so powerful that any rune without a teleport (for FoT or WotHF) will see limited if any use at all.

CW has Cyclone Strike and doesn't need a teleport and DR is a kiting skill and also doesn't need a teleport. (IMO)

I can completely see the angle of "it would be fair to have teleport on some runes but not others" and I am sure you can balance the runes around that concept, but I feel like that would be a mistake.

The most fun feeling part of playing my monk is moving around and dodging stuff. I use TWO movement augmentation skills to do this. (I use DR in MP10 btw, so that gets use too!)

Every time I switch to another spirit gen I play for a while then get bored because I am not flying around the map and switch back to FoT:TC.

I apologize if I might have offended you with that statement. It was not my intention. I do know that you keep class balance in mind, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place!


All good. I have a tendency to over-react to stuff on forums :(

This can be seen as either:
1. Good (the Monk class is proc independent, so gear diversity improves and skill diversity increases because there is no need to worry about procs)
2. Bad (the Monk class is proc dependent, so gear costs increase and skill diversity decreases because you can only proc a few things)

As of right now, I'm personally leaning towards #2, Bad. I think that Monks need more proc options on the other skills, because all the really good proc effects right now (besides SW/Cyclone) are completely gear dependent. Skills like Mantra of Healing / Boon of Inspiration would be a good candidate to buff. However, changing other skills is a story for another time...


100% Agree. Need MORE options!

That said, every Spirit generator skill should have a high proc rune. Currently, the only truly high proc rune is Thunderclap. For the other Spirit generators, I've suggested Hands of Lightning for Way of the Hundred Fists, and Tsunami for Crippling Wave. In my next review, I'll be discussing Deadly Reach, but as a preview, I believe that Piercing Trident should be the high proc rune for that skill. At the same time, each Spirit generator skill should have at most, only 1 high proc rune to better encourage build diversity.


100% Agreed.

(Note: my Hands of Lightning recommendation was identical to yours!)

I was moving toward Mangle being that skill for CW but I can totally see an argument for Tsunami.

I am 100% in love with my Tsunami proposal so I will try and fit it together and see what I come up with.

DR could also be scattered blows as that skill is basically worthless right now! :D

Another reason why I suggested dropping the DoT on Fists of Fury is because of the double proc it gives. I believe that Fists of Fury, the big damage rune, shouldn't have such an ability when it already has high damage and fast teleport. Keeping the DoT would make Fists of Fury too similar to Thunderclap in terms of procs, and I believe it's crucial to keep the two skills from becoming clones of each other. Otherwise, the player's choice comes down to: "Which one works better? Oh, FoT/TC works better? Okay, I'll use that!" And then no one cares about Fists of Fury, the lesser Thunderclap. That discourages build diversity.


I hear you loud and clear. They are extremely similar. +1 for this argument! :D

So to make the two runes distinct, I gave Fists of Fury an even bigger damage increase then usual, but dropped the proc rate. Now players have a clearer choice on whether to go proc or go raw damage. This encourages build diversity.


Again, yup!

Entire mangle vs breaking wave example


I totally hear ya there. I really wasn't seeing your side until this post so sorry if this comes off as a huge flip-flop but I am pretty much 100% in agreement at this point. :P

(If you're wondering why I suggested a damage buff for Mangle despite what I just said: That's because Mangle excels over FoT/TC in only one scenario -- a tight AOE surround. So because FoT/TC beats Mangle in many more scenarios than Mangle beats or equals FoT/TC, this is why Mangle needs a buff to better equalize the playing field.)


I was already on the "buff mangles dps" boat so ... yup!

whole DoT vs Flat dmg play style choice thing


Again, I really wasn't looking at it this way. Glad to see your point now and I agree this would be beneficial.

Conclusion:
I will look into switching FoF to a flat damage rune (though if we do give teleport to all WotHF runes it may need a little something else to make it feel "aggressive" compared to the other runes so I will want to figure out if the "teleport for all" change passes muster first!)

Looks like we need to move this argument/conversation to two places specifically:

1. All FoT's get TC's teleport and all WotHF's get FoF's teleport VS not.
2. How to implement better proc-oriented spirit gens into DR and CW.

(not going to talk aobut getting better proc-using skills here because this is a spirit gen thread ... but that really needs to be addressed as well)
Hey Druin!

Glad you liked some of my suggestions. These are the result of too much experimentation and gameplay. Too... too... much...

10/12/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Druin
I would love to hear thoughts on completely removing the crit-aspect from the skill to give it some flavor difference between Quickening and Strike from Beyond?

I would actually be against removing the crit aspect on Rising Tide. This is to make way for WotHF/Spirited Salvo to have the unique ability of being crit independent. Also, I don't think anyone will have a major issue of Rising Tide relying on crit since all Monks should be stacking either CHC or IAS (or both!) anyways. The big problem with Rising Tide is that the attack speed is slow, so the Spirit generation is less consistent, and Spirit spender Monks need Spirit generation that is more consistent.

But IF we were to remove the Rising Tide's crit aspect, then something like 4 Spirit per target hit would be good enough. Most scenarios involve hitting 2 - 3 targets at once, so Monks would be getting 8 - 12 bonus Spirit per attack. This is actually a major buff as it is due to how consistent this effect is.

Of course, getting surrounded can let you hit 6 - 9 monsters or more per attack, or 24 - 36 bonus Spirit per attack. This is very strong, but not overpowered, because if you are surrounded and need several attacks (more than 6) to kill a monster, then you're probably:

1. Playing a tank build, so you deserve the extra Spirit to compensate for your lower DPS
2. Fighting elites, so you need the Spirit to actually fight them off in a decent amount of time
3. Already dead :(

As of now, none of the Monk's skills allow for a continuous AOE crowd control (like the Critical Mass Wizards), so the additional Spirit wouldn't allow for the Monk to tank forever.

So probably 4 Spirit per target hit, but no more than 5 Spirit. Anything more than 5 Spirit would definitely be overpowered.

I do not find this to be true. I have found this to be one of the weakest runes out of all the spirit generators.

The increase in range is okay, but it does very low damage compared with other runes and the 60% snare is very hard to gain effect from due to monks being a primarily melee range / in your face class.

I feel that this rune suffers from all the same problems that other CW runes do, but it does not give any compensation for those downsides.

I don't understand where you're coming from with this one. Being "melee and in your face" actually works in Tsunami's favor, since you'll be positioned next to the mob pack and hitting the maximum number of targets within Tsunami's huge damage radius. For aggression, the 60% snare is used to prevent mobs from running away. I don't find this weak at all.

Maybe you're focusing too much on the single-target damage? Because yes, Tsunami (along with Rising Tide) has the lowest single-target damage of every Spirit generator skill for the Monk, which is why a single-target damage skill is mandatory when running Tsunami. But in terms of its AOE damage, Tsunami is strong.

10/12/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Druin
This is easily the most compelling argument I have ever seen for Tsunami's use. However, in testing, I have found it is nearly 100% impossible to actually do DR DR CW combos with any reasonable efficiency.

Practice, man. Practice. ;)

What's more important is getting the timing down in your head, because the onscreen animation may deceive you in the actual timing of the attacks.
Update:
1. Made a spreadsheet that displayed each spirit gen rune and some info about them taking my proposed changes into account! (Most of my workday was spent doing this! ;) )
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmdoqcIhoiAGdHd2WnR6Qmp4QmJIWjBjUTJURHgtNnc
Added the link to the main page.
2. Updated CW:Concussion with Strikerdude's changes.
3. Updated CW:Breaking Wave with Strikerdude's changes.
4. Updated WotHF:Windforce Flurry so that it was mathematically in line with other spirit generators.
Just to break down the DR - DR - CW combo a little further.

Assuming you have 2APS (relatively normal)
And that combination of attacks yields roughly 1.4 APS mod (I think this is right)

Then:
2 * 1.4 = 2.8 attacks per second (read: clicks per second)
=168 clicks per minute.

That is 168 APM without factoring in moving, other skills, picking up items ... ect.

Here is a list of how APM correlates with Starcraft 2 players.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Actions_per_minute

That is a lot to ask of a D3 player imo. :D
The movement of a monk should feel fluid and quick. Having JUST TR feels cumbersome and having JUST TC feels cumbersome.

I think that the teleport on TC and FoF exemplify what the monk class needs MORE of not less.

I think they are extremely fun and, so powerful that any rune without a teleport (for FoT or WotHF) will see limited if any use at all.

This is true. The Monk should feel fluid and quick. Blizzard even advertised this to us! But the mobility skills we should be using for the non-teleport runes don't provide enough support, which is why they feel slow.

But imagine this...

What if:
1. Tempest Rush only cost 3 Spirit/sec to channel?
2. Dashing Strike only cost 5 Spirit, and removed the requirement to target a monster or destructible for the full dash distance?
3. Fleet Footed gave you a 15% movement speed buff and broke the movement speed cap?
4. Mantra of Evasion / Wind Through the Reeds gave you a 10% movement speed buff, and 20% for the first 3 seconds, also breaking the movement speed cap?

Now, I doubt that such huge buffs would happen in one patch, but it's great to dream, right? I'm pretty sure that if this happened, then the non-teleport runes would be seen in a whole new light!
Just to break down the DR - DR - CW combo a little further.

Assuming you have 2APS (relatively normal)
And that combination of attacks yields roughly 1.4 APS mod (I think this is right)

Then:
2 * 1.4 = 2.8 attacks per second (read: clicks per second)
=168 clicks per minute.

That is 168 APM without factoring in moving, other skills, picking up items ... ect.

Here is a list of how APM correlates with Starcraft 2 players.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Actions_per_minute

That is a lot to ask of a D3 player imo. :D

SC2 player here, sorry. :)
In MP10 it took me 20 minutes of nearly continuous attacking to kill the Uber Skeleton King. I would have LOVED to use a skill that did more damage than FoT:TC no matter what the other drawbacks in this situation! :D

(Note: a flat damage WotHF would have been just as good as a stacking DoT WotHF ... as long as it was more damage, just pointing out, long fights do exist!)

Okay, that's true. I didn't consider uber-boss fights on MP10, and that any damage would be useful there, no matter where it came from. Yikes, how can you be so patient killing those guys on MP10?!!

100% Agreed.

(Note: my Hands of Lightning recommendation was identical to yours!)

I was moving toward Mangle being that skill for CW but I can totally see an argument for Tsunami.

I am 100% in love with my Tsunami proposal so I will try and fit it together and see what I come up with.

DR could also be scattered blows as that skill is basically worthless right now! :D

Yeah, I guess we definitely agree more than we disagree. Huzzah! And yes, Scattered Blows really does suck. :p

10/12/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Druin
I will look into switching FoF to a flat damage rune (though if we do give teleport to all WotHF runes it may need a little something else to make it feel "aggressive" compared to the other runes so I will want to figure out if the "teleport for all" change passes muster first!)

Probably the most "aggressive" thing to do for Fists of Fury make the teleport really fast. I mean, Thunderclap fast. Really fast. If that's not enough, maybe even increase the teleport distance a bit further?

Another thought: Let Fists of Fury teleport with EVERY attack. Admittedly, this would be super-duper fun, and it would be unique. But such a skill would definitely warrant bringing its damage down a little to keep it balanced. (Bringing the damage down from the buffed suggestion, not the current damage!)
Wow take a day or two from the thread and 2 pages go up with mad information. Proposed changes are cool. As a monk who uses the DoT mechanic as a main build i have a couple of things i would like to add to this discussion. DoT effects take damage from the paper DPS which takes into effect critical hit and crit damage but not attack speed so by making it stack you give attack speed an actual spot within DoT.

A straight up damage buff is great, gives the LoH/LS life gain dependency strength. What about when running away? No LS from the ticks of the DoT. Increasing the overall damage in the DoT is again an easy fix but the stack enables attack speed in it.

Only effects other then other actual DoT's that increase DoT are either increasing self DPS or damage to others.

The monk as of this time does not have any truly potential benefits in that manner.

If you are proposing to remove the DoT (which the monk is one of the only efficient classes at being able to do said playstyle and only clumsy right now) then i suggest making it have an ability that would increase dps in general or have the enemy take more damage.

There are not many abilities within the monk in general that enable this or if they do have major drawbacks to them. Concussion with mobility issues, Deadly Reach with third strike must, Burning hand flesh is weak is expensive weak, and single target (does not spread) breath of heaven must use heal, Inner Sanctuary forbidden palace, must be stationary, combination strike spirit generators that help for stack are clunky, Guiding light must be co-op. Mantra of conviction with overawe is the best and even then they have to be by you and is somewhat expensive for the full effect you are looking for.

As for abilities with DoT in of themselves even fewer. At this time we have hand of thunder Static charge but then must be hitting others serinty with ascention but then it is more like reflect, Burning hand in itself is on but with only one ability to make it AOE. Sweeping wind again is another but only around you must stack expensive and can disappear. Mantra of conviction Submission but then they need to be around you and cannot use overawe for buff.

Spirit Generators are supposed to be the most versatile abilities. Due to that all spirit generators should be usable in any build so long as the correct rune is added with it it would not be right to take the DoT capability away in Way of a Hundred Fists considering that at this time it is the most efficient one of them all.
I am, by no means overly attached to the dot concept (though I do like the idea of a DS in, hit hit BOOM, DS out as mobs melt behind you playstyle).

My reasoning for giving the DoT a proc-coefficient was that in a prolonged fight a DoT is pretty useless because its damage is so static. Perhaps this isn't a needed concern though.
(maybe I should change it to a stacking DoT? trolololololol)

Believe it or not, I would actually agree to give a stacking DoT to Mangle instead of a flat damage buff. Although Mangle is an aggressive rune, it's not the same type of fast and furious aggression like Thunderclap or Fists of Fury. Mangle plays more like a steady, reliable, consistent damage dealer. So while Thunderclap feels like "hit them fast and often", and Fists of Fury feels like "strike hard and fast," Mangle feels more like "press the attack." And I think the different feelings are great for build diversity!

Given that Mangle attacks slow, lacks mobility, and has a large damage radius, this actually makes a DoT complement Mangle perfectly. A DoT would also have excellent synergy with Crippling Wave's effects (reducing attack speed enables continuous applying of DoTs, reducing movement speed enables hit-and-run tactics). It also allows Mangle the ability to take down single targets better.

I updated my previous article on Crippling Wave to reflect my change in opinion. :)
To continue my post from earlier about Way with a Hundred Fists and the rune for Fist of Fury, something else came to mind. The only thing that would make this ability different then Windforce Flurry is teleport/dash (if not given to all) and damage spread between 3 blows instead of piling it all into the last blow except with proposed changes this is highly more effective then just upping Fists of Fury DPS in general.

This rune is supposed to represent a monks rage. A few ways to propose this.

A. How it is now. Monk is angry does devastating punches, leaves spirit residue that eats at enemy. Like Rend but no bleeding.

B. Have monk gain some kind of berserk increasing DPS in general like Deadly reach foresight. Limitations on DPS increase per punch and possibly different increase per punch...
something like 2.5%>.5%(per mini hit)>4% for a total of 10% DPS increase... If possible make it so that you need to do the individual hits in order to get total increase so that if continuous use of say FoT>FoT>WotHF would only give a 4% increase. Or have it that it increases only on first/last hit due to that being when people take out the most rage.

C. Another is that the monk is angry enough to cause weak points increasing DPS for all party members as a miniature conviction bonus.

D. Give monk a stagger effect so that enemies become stunned.

E. Increase critical hit chance/damage.

F. Mix and Match above proposals.

The above ideas work with a rage or in fury. As much as straight DPS increase would it neglects other things that the rage or fury would make happen as well in a lasting form.
Nice ideas, but it seems like some of them already exist in the skill or would intrude on other existing skills too much. Here's a breakdown for each one.

A. How it is now. Monk is angry does devastating punches, leaves spirit residue that eats at enemy. Like Rend but no bleeding.

B. Have monk gain some kind of berserk increasing DPS in general like Deadly reach foresight. Limitations on DPS increase per punch and possibly different increase per punch...
something like 2.5%>.5%(per mini hit)>4% for a total of 10% DPS increase... If possible make it so that you need to do the individual hits in order to get total increase so that if continuous use of say FoT>FoT>WotHF would only give a 4% increase. Or have it that it increases only on first/last hit due to that being when people take out the most rage.

Any mechanic that involves "charging up" a damage bonus (whether it's a DoT, stacking damage bonus, or whatever) slows down the player for an already slow attacking skill. It also reduces the synergy with the teleport, which is best used in fast moving scenarios. So while it's nice for ideas to be novel and creative, they don't have to be like that in order to be useful or balanced.

10/14/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Derapi
C. Another is that the monk is angry enough to cause weak points increasing DPS for all party members as a miniature conviction bonus.

This is like Crippling Wave / Breaking Wave, except that Breaking Wave will always be superior due to the number of targets that it hits.

10/14/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Derapi
D. Give monk a stagger effect so that enemies become stunned.

Actually, Fists of Fury already does this. The third strike for Way of the Hundred Fists is a knockback, so when you combine this with Fists of Fury's teleport, this creates a "stun like" effect in itself.

10/14/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Derapi
E. Increase critical hit chance/damage.

Increasing CHC or CHD, speaking in terms of damage, is like a flat damage increase, except less consistent. For CHC specifically, the advantage of this one would be an increased chance to proc Sweeping Wind. Unfortunately, this would only create one skill synergy, which would make Sweeping Wind feel mandatory when running Fists of Fury. I'm very much against "one skill becomes mandatory" types of changes. There should always be at least two synergistic, but opposing, skills to choose from in all cases.

F. Mix and Match above proposals.

The above ideas work with a rage or in fury. As much as straight DPS increase would it neglects other things that the rage or fury would make happen as well in a lasting form.

This sounds a little too Barb like for my tastes, and I'm not wanting to play a Barb. I want to play a Monk!

With that said, I've just had another idea! Instead of a flat damage increase, which would do 175%/175%/175% damage for each strike, we could change the damage distribution to 217%/154%/154% damage for each strike. The damage is equivalent over all three strikes, but the teleport on the first strike combined with the very high damage would further reinforce the "strike hard and fast" feel of the rune. This would also make it feel more aggressive while not requiring a teleport for every attack. This would further differentiate itself from Thunderclap.

In fact, I like this idea so much that I'm updating my previous review on Way of the Hundred Fists to include this!

Changes - Fists of Fury:
"Increases damage to 217% weapon damage on the first strike, and 154% weapon damage on the second and third strikes. Also adds a short dash to the first strike."
With the minor change to having damage be done at first you almost make this rune as a must if having 2 or more generators. Third power hit moves is where most of the damage is at. This small change makes all the other runes have to be looked at in order to give them all the same type of combo style feature. I like it do not get me wrong but almost makes this rune over-powered in of it-self.

If you keep it with DPS at the end the the Windforce Flurry will out match it due to the nature of the AoE.

I know that I was showing some barbaric traits within my description of possible skill effects but isn't that what this rune is supposed to do? Barbarians are all about fury. We are taking that discipline and applying it to our fists. I also understand that we are quick and subtle.

An idea is a mix of both mine and yours. Make the first strike harder just not quite so strong as to be overpowering maybe 180%-190% second hit is natural and third strike a bit harder and gives the DoT due to explosion of holy at the end.

Believe it or not, I would actually agree to give a stacking DoT to Mangle instead of a flat damage buff. Although Mangle is an aggressive rune, it's not the same type of fast and furious aggression like Thunderclap or Fists of Fury. Mangle plays more like a steady, reliable, consistent damage dealer. So while Thunderclap feels like "hit them fast and often", and Fists of Fury feels like "strike hard and fast," Mangle feels more like "press the attack." And I think the different feelings are great for build diversity!

Given that Mangle attacks slow, lacks mobility, and has a large damage radius, this actually makes a DoT complement Mangle perfectly. A DoT would also have excellent synergy with Crippling Wave's effects (reducing attack speed enables continuous applying of DoTs, reducing movement speed enables hit-and-run tactics). It also allows Mangle the ability to take down single targets better.

I updated my previous article on Crippling Wave to reflect my change in opinion. :)


Lol! I am glad you approve of my stacking DoT even if it is for a different skill! :D

I will do more math for CW:Mangle instead of WotHF:FoF so that we have a "balanced" stacking dot number.

With that said, I've just had another idea! Instead of a flat damage increase, which would do 175%/175%/175% damage for each strike, we could change the damage distribution to 217%/154%/154% damage for each strike. The damage is equivalent over all three strikes, but the teleport on the first strike combined with the very high damage would further reinforce the "strike hard and fast" feel of the rune. This would also make it feel more aggressive while not requiring a teleport for every attack. This would further differentiate itself from Thunderclap.

In fact, I like this idea so much that I'm updating my previous review on Way of the Hundred Fists to include this!

Changes - Fists of Fury:
"Increases damage to 217% weapon damage on the first strike, and 154% weapon damage on the second and third strikes. Also adds a short dash to the first strike."


I have proposed changing the overall APS of WotHF to 1.25 from 1.12 so that the first hit will happen more quickly (for all WotHF runes) which would allow FoF's teleport to happen more quickly.

With this change in mind, I think I would need to scale down 217% and 154% to keep WotHF in line, DPS wise, with other runes.

Other than that, I like it.

I still feel that I want the FoF teleport on all WotHF runes because monks feel way too slow without the teleport function.

If I were to do that, I would probably consider adding a BETTER teleport to FoF to keep it "aggressive" along with the increase in damage.

Thoughts?
Hey Druin, I'm glad you like the idea! The idea was to make Fists of Fury feel like a burst speed charge attack, and Thunderclap feel like a constant quick attack. In this case, Fists of Fury should do more damage since you can only teleport so much.

In real world terms, Fists of Fury should feel like a football Linebacker charging you down, while Thunderclap should feel like a Bantamweight boxer circling punches around you.

The only thing I would suggest is for Fists of Fury to gain a longer range teleport (and I mean something really long, like 30 yards or so). This would feel more aggressive, since the player can get better picks on which target to attack. Also, I take back what I said on giving Fists of Fury a teleport for every attack: I don't want this anymore, since it would make it feel too much like Thunderclap.

Then there's this:

I still feel that I want the FoF teleport on all WotHF runes because monks feel way too slow without the teleport function.

Can you describe in good detail exactly what you mean by this? I'm asking this because there are MANY ways to interpret the concept of "feel way too slow". This is a psychological thing, so I want to get your take before I respond to this bit.
Bump! (I do plan on responding to you striker, just been busy at work / being "sick")
In addition to what's already being said, maybe the spirit generator revamp could be done in several points :
- 1st point would be a change in core mechanism of the spirit generator themselves like what you’re currently discussing about.
- 2nd point could be achieved through passives by granting 2 new passives : one dedicated to aggressively boost spi. generator and another passive to boost them defensively.

For instance:
Introduce a new passive (or replacing “Guiding light” : P ) which would boost our spirit generators much like “Weapons master” for barbarians or “Archery” for DH.
The effect could be like these ones FoT : +raw dmg / DR : +crit. chance/ CW : + IAS/ FoF : +crit. dmg.

And introduce another new passive with defensive boost for 3 sec while using a given spirit generator :
FoT : +dodge / DR : +Armor/ CW : + spirit/ FoF : +All res.

The values of the boosts (to be defined) should be lower than the ones from «archery»/«weapons master» passives since several spirit generators can be combined.

What would you think?

Ps : btw, nice hellfire ring Druin.
Being as they have done literally nothing to address the monk problem yet, I will keep right on suggesting they fix our spirit generators! (and making spreadsheets ... because I love spreadsheets!)
You know, I didnt read most of this thread word for word but I skimmed over it and this definetly took time. Also, from what I read, there wasn't mention of barb in it! At least there wasn't much if there was any. Its about time people started to focus on fixing monk instead of compairing to other classes skills.

Bump from a noob monk that is currently happy with the class and is looking forward to new changes as they come!

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