build diversity? Killing WW barbs?

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Honestly - how is it fun to literally roll through the map unchallanged moving to fast to be hit and gaining more life than any monster can deal? WW barb is 100% broken. Not to mention Bezerker is broken. When the 2 are combined you are basically always broken. You can literally farm 2-3 times faster than other classes and never die because you are never stuck, never vunerable to elite magic and always gaining life from skills that were never even intended to gain you life. It's not that the damage output is too high or anything - it's just too fast. You'd actually do a lot more dmg using rend. You'd just have to stop and take dmg every once and a while - oh BTW you are the most survivable class in the game.
09/27/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Buck
there was no reason to nerf this build, or the DH tank build, or the CM wizard build


I agree with this completely. There is no real "competition" in PVE..
Run Like the Wind makes WW/double tornado barb a very strong build by combining multiple benefits into one neat little package: life regeneration, Fury gain, damage, in-combat mobility, and run speed. It's all there. Ask just about anyone (or take a look at the posts in these forums) and they'll tell you WW barbs are incredibly powerful, and it's also one of the first builds people point to when the word "nerf" is mentioned.


Thank you for taking the time to explain and you are absolutely right that Sprint skill, a skill designed primarily for giving you speed, shouldn't heal you while you run AND attack. That is just wrong and those that don't agree just want to keep their god-mode.

On the other hand, I just checked out the Top 500 Witch Doctor build and 88% of the Top 500 WDs are using Zombie Charger skill and amazing 100% of them use Zombie Bear.

Now, I main WD and I don't wish to nerf Zombie Bear but if ZB is the "base-line" performance of a high level WD, then there's still a lot of work to do to bring up "diversity". :P


Thanks for your understanding and feedback. :)

We’re always striving to improve the balance of the game, but we’re not trying to do it by explicitly and constantly nerfing the most powerful build simply because it’s popular. The fact remains that we’ve buffed underused skills FAR more than we’ve toned down powerful ones, and our general rule will be to buff rather than nerf whenever possible.

In terms of Zombie Bears, it doesn’t even come close to causing as many problems as Run Like the Wind did when you consider the life gain and mobility factors the WW build afforded barbarians. Is Zombie Bears the most popular build for witch doctors? Yes. But, as it stands, does that alone make them too powerful? No.

Zombie Bears isn’t really in the same ballpark of out-of-balance that WW barbarians are/were. The tuning on Zombie Bears isn’t skewed far enough to cause us to have to consider completely reworking Monster Power just to account for the Bears. It’s also not far enough off that the game experience for witch doctor Zombie Bear players significantly and completely trumps all other classes and builds.

We’re always working towards build diversity, and (like I mentioned previously) we’d rather accomplish that by buffing rather than nerfing. But sometimes when one build/skill is so far out of line, we can’t really buff everything else to its level. In those cases, we’ll nerf when we have to because we believe it’s what’s better for the health of the game.
lets face it...it's only a matter of time before all OP/fun builds are nerfed.

Players equate OP = FUN. I personally dont care about diversity.
09/27/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Vaeflare
But sometimes when one build/skill is so far out of line, we can’t really buff everything else to its level. In those cases, we’ll nerf when we have to because we believe it’s what’s better for the health of the game.
For once I completely agree with this.
But, Nerf is a dirty word. You should get a forum ban for using it! ;-)
idk how this is fair tbh.. 1.0.5 they can still do the infinite WW.. how is it healthy for the game when there is an option to do infinite continuos DMG with low probability of dying....Nether Tent..DH..pretty equal to this yet it was nerfed. I know it was a skill/rune.. and that WW is based on multiple skill/rune + gear.. but barb is the only one who can do this.. this should be available on all classes in some form.. maybe a way to do infinite gloom + 60% movement speed?
We’re always working towards build diversity, and (like I mentioned previously) we’d rather accomplish that by buffing rather than nerfing. But sometimes when one build/skill is so far out of line, we can’t really buff everything else to its level. In those cases, we’ll nerf when we have to because we believe it’s what’s better for the health of the game.


I think you can sleep soundly knowing that the whining about WW barb nerfs is just so much noise from players who use that build.

The fix that you guys are putting in makes sense, and it keeps the build viable while reducing the ease of 100% WOTB uptime and absurd levels of LoH.

I would like to posit, however, that the defensive changes really need to be looked at far more delicately. Most notably, the change to Gloom seems very much heavy handed for an active skill. I can understand wanting to reduce the sort of automatic assignment of passive skills (or essentially passive skills like Impunity), but the change to active skills should be handled with more grace.... and since DHs have now had essentially every defensive skill nerfed, I think that you should reconsider the upcoming changes.

For clarification's sake, I do not play a demon hunter.
how about you fix monks??????
We have but 1 viable build and even that is !@#$ house
god I honestly cant believe you are posting on behalf of barbarians and WD's when monks have had this very problem since the launch

why have you completely turned your attention away from the monk when it is the only class remaining with only 1 build honestly it is so slack
i dont get why you devs are worried about build diversity, buff all... why does it matter, when this is diablo and its not a mmo, its got no pvp, its a pve game like diablo always was...
so basicaly if alot of people use a build you will eather nerf it or??? im going with nerf for sure...
09/27/2012 04:21 PMPosted by BelowZero
idk how this is fair tbh.. 1.0.5 they can still do the infinite WW.. how is it healthy for the game when there is an option to do infinite continuos DMG with low probability of dying....Nether Tent..DH..pretty equal to this yet it was nerfed. I know it was a skill/rune.. and that WW is based on multiple skill/rune + gear.. but barb is the only one who can do this.. this should be available on all classes in some form.. maybe a way to do infinite gloom + 60% movement speed?


you must not have played d2 brah.... ww barb could ww infinite with mana pots, and leech, d3 has no mana pots, if you couldnt ww infinitly then wtf would it be a skill for barb then??? ww for 2 seconds n stop??? that would be pritty dumb... i guess your just lucky barb cant teleport like in d2 lolzzzz
We’re always working towards build diversity, and (like I mentioned previously) we’d rather accomplish that by buffing rather than nerfing. But sometimes when one build/skill is so far out of line, we can’t really buff everything else to its level. In those cases, we’ll nerf when we have to because we believe it’s what’s better for the health of the game.


I don't believe that at all actually, especially in game industry. However, if funding is the problem then it can't be helped. There are many other ways to work around instead of altering something that has been built, but it is, again, a psychological flaw to do so. But it's not like this game doesn't worth 60 bucks so I shouldn't be giving any more of complaints. No offense.

On the other hand, I just checked out the Top 500 Witch Doctor build and 88% of the Top 500 WDs are using Zombie Charger skill and amazing 100% of them use Zombie Bear.
.


Sorry if I missed a link in this thread but where was this data extracted from?
+1 ^ i seen the meteor build in action, looks fun lolz, but unfortinatly it will get nerfed rofl
I would like to posit, however, that the defensive changes really need to be looked at far more delicately. Most notably, the change to Gloom seems very much heavy handed for an active skill. I can understand wanting to reduce the sort of automatic assignment of passive skills (or essentially passive skills like Impunity), but the change to active skills should be handled with more grace.... and since DHs have now had essentially every defensive skill nerfed, I think that you should reconsider the upcoming changes.

For clarification's sake, I do not play a demon hunter.


Perhaps you should first actually play a demon hunter before you say a thing like this. Gloom/Shadow Power has been improved in 1.0.5 in my opinion, it lasts 67% longer now which is huge considering how valuable discipline is for a DH. I really hope they stick with these changes.
09/27/2012 04:10 PMPosted by Vaeflare
we’ll nerf when we have to because we believe it’s what’s better for the health of the game.


I want to know what "the health of the game" entails.

What are the overarching principles that dictate whether or not a game is healthy, and in particular, this game, and how does one balance the benefits associated with maintaining game health, and the seemingly inevitable consequences of player dissatisfaction as a result of that balancing?
impunity rune destroy'd alot off barb builds imo, i know there is alot of people out there that dont have godly gear, so its a huge nerf lolz

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