Request for response on state of Monks..

General Discussion
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This is a sad sad day for monks... And its an even sadder day for us to realize that blizzard doesn't give a !@#$ about us or our feedback.
10/03/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
We feel that monks are in a decent place at the moment,


I'm sorry to say it, but this is 100% wrong. I dont play a monk anymore and even i know this.
10/04/2012 06:11 AMPosted by Inferis
Is anyone going to give suggestion as to how monks should be changed instead of just saying over and over again how they need it? Seriously, why would you complain that blizzard isn't thinking of good changes for the monk when you obviously have no idea what you actually want to be changed. Troll harder. Personally I like the idea of making LTK more diverse. As a monk, I want a skill adds to my dps and allows me to stay in the group without spreading them out. There are some good aoe spirit spenders, but they all cause knockback. Also, I like the idea of DS being able to be use as a movement enhancing skill. I always wanted to use it to dash across the map and it really bummed me out the first time i tried and it actually hindered my movement :( Lastly I love Combo Strikes passive. The idea of using multiple spirit gens to gain a damage advantage passively is sweet. Not only that, but it is fun and challenging to master. The issue I have is the way the strikes work in succession with each other. I believe the strike count (3 strikes per gen) should reset when you switch gens. This would make things way more interesting as far as planning out good combos that are extremely effective :D It would give you more strikes before your 3rd (with most runes the knockback strike)


Posting his spec at time of posting in case he changes it after being called out on it:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aQXgZS!XgY!acbYZZ

Specced into combination strike but only using 1 spirit generator. Failure doesn't even begin to describe it.

Blizzard: This is what happens when you drive all the best skilled players away from a class and even your game due to your crappy game design. All that's left are bads.


LOL this made me laugh so hard.... good job sir
10/04/2012 06:15 AMPosted by FruitVendor


Posting his spec at time of posting in case he changes it after being called out on it:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aQXgZS!XgY!acbYZZ

Specced into combination strike but only using 1 spirit generator. Failure doesn't even begin to describe it.

Blizzard: This is what happens when you drive all the best skilled players away from a class and even your game due to your crappy game design. All that's left are bads.


LOL this made me laugh so hard.... good job sir


LMFAOOOO
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6712882668

And this is balanced...seriously there is a major problem
This is what balance looks like from Blizzard's point of view:
http://youtu.be/beZXYhihXfE

Now go tell me monks "are a solid class in terms of power". Fed up of this bullcrap you're feeding us, Blizzard!
the problem with combination Strike is that you need at least 3 spiit generators for it to be useful .in a game where you are limited to 6 specs ,wasting 3 of them for generators is plain stupid .also it only lasts for 3 seconds ,you need to do some serious button mashing to utilize it effectively . just making it last 6 secs could make it way more useful than it is now

guiding light is actually a very good skill ,provided you have communication with the people you are playing with (skype for ex) . but completely useless in solo and public games . i remember using it in public games where i was chasing damaged party members and they were running away from me unaware of what i was trying to do and just going after mobs .it didnt take long before i took it out of my build
We feel that monks are in a decent place at the moment, and are a solid class in terms of power, but there are some things that we would like to address with the class. Namely: we would like to delve deeper into fulfilling the fantasy of what it means to be a monk.

Currently, monks spend a lot of their time applying an assortment of DPS buffs through the use of utility and survivability buttons. The bulk of monk damage comes from very passive gameplay, like healing yourself to get a damage buff, or applying Sweeping Winds and not looking at it again. We want to give players who enjoy the fantasy of being a blur of fists and feet a more active playstyle, and we’d love to play up some other fun mechanics as well.

For example, one possibility we’re considering is changing one of Dashing Strike’s runes to allow players to travel further with the skill so that it can serve as a mobility tool, but at the cost of imposing a cooldown. Another possibility we’re exploring is making Lashing Tail Kick feel more compelling by moving the knockback component to a rune, or changing a rune to remove the knockback and instead increase the damage more meaningfully. These types of changes are not minor tweaks, however. We want to make sure we take some time to make meaningful changes that improve the overall play experience for these sacred warriors.


Vaeflare, i respect you for the job you have and the work you do....However, this is absolutely absurd. I dont play a monk, but i do have one at level 60, and i will say by far its the most boring, underpowered, underskilled, lack of passive and overall "not-fun" class there is to pick at the moment.

If you think they are fine....then i guess you're losing another huge chunk of whatevers left of your community.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6712882668

And this is balanced...seriously there is a major problem


this
We feel that monks are in a decent place at the moment, and are a solid class in terms of power, but there are some things that we would like to address with the class. Namely: we would like to delve deeper into fulfilling the fantasy of what it means to be a monk.

Currently, monks spend a lot of their time applying an assortment of DPS buffs through the use of utility and survivability buttons. The bulk of monk damage comes from very passive gameplay, like healing yourself to get a damage buff, or applying Sweeping Winds and not looking at it again. We want to give players who enjoy the fantasy of being a blur of fists and feet a more active playstyle, and we’d love to play up some other fun mechanics as well.

For example, one possibility we’re considering is changing one of Dashing Strike’s runes to allow players to travel further with the skill so that it can serve as a mobility tool, but at the cost of imposing a cooldown. Another possibility we’re exploring is making Lashing Tail Kick feel more compelling by moving the knockback component to a rune, or changing a rune to remove the knockback and instead increase the damage more meaningfully. These types of changes are not minor tweaks, however. We want to make sure we take some time to make meaningful changes that improve the overall play experience for these sacred warriors.


I'm sorry but this response is weak at best. I'm normally not one to come around and comment on blue posts however Monk needs a lot more work than a cooldown on dashing strike, which I think is a horrible idea, and the lashing tail kick change. Monks have a large amount of problems that need to be addressed. The biggest being (in regards to dual wielding) the defenses of monks are lack luster at best outside of the major 3 passives that most use. Now my preferred play style is dual wield. That being said my analysis will be based on that. I've spent a lot of gold and time playing with builds, ideas, and researching before even considering posting a thread on the state of monks or even commenting in something like this... however I hate to say I must agree with the community on this. Monks are weak. They lack the damage output and NEED to rely on things like crit chance/damage + IAS to make any kind of impact. Which play style wise does make sense... however with that being a virtual requirement to make dual wielding successful it doesn't leave much room for options when you need to power survivability into most of your slots and conserve that spirit as much as possible if you want to live. The diversity for dual wielding is limited.

For a dual wield monk to be successful the damage buffs from things like blinding flash and breath of heaven are nice and very useful. However it's not the damage buff that's the focal point. I've found it equally helpful to use the fear skill for breath of heaven also for breathing room in sticky situations with some of the more infuriating enemies. As for Blinding flash it's not just as damage buff. It's breathing room. It gives you time to heal, time to run, time to put on the hurt if you think you can take it. Which almost makes it non-negotiable for monks that dual wield and here's why.

Dodge isn't potent enough. Dodge suffers from diminishing returns that are far too steep to actually make dodging reliable. With say a 45% chance to dodge with guardians path and using mantra of evasion and say dashing strike with blinding speed. You won't breech 70% like you think you should. Considering the buff from the first 3 seconds of mantra activation and the fact that dashing strike also only lasts for a short time this makes it a fleeting dream at best since it disappears so remarkably and you'll find yourself trying to spend spirit you simply don't have/can't afford. The only thing I can see that would potentially enhance this to make it more viable is tons of spirit regen+ life per spirit spent gear to make your survivability increase as well as generate the spirit you need in order to stay in the fight. This also would not remove sweeping wind since it too adds to spirit regen with the one rune however it may open up a space for another skill say... cyclone strike. Since well it has that rune that increases dodge. The diminishing returns strike again and you won't be getting anywhere near the amount of dodge you need to last in a long encounter since you've simply just pulled every enemy on top of you for a whopping 3 seconds in a derpy manner for 20% dodge you simply aren't getting doing laughable damage in the process while blowing 50 spirit in the process. So... 50+50+25 =125 spirit required for max survivability for dodge every 3 seconds. I don't think this is actually plausible. Someone please prove me wrong though if I am. so what else can help improve survivability without blinding flash? Perhaps 7 sided strike? I like the idea however this brings me to another point.

7 sided strike is too expensive. I don't mean expensive in terms of spirit, while 50 is pricy it's not the 75 that say wave of light costs it's expensive in relation to it's damage output and the time you need to take for it to recharge for only less than stellar damage to multiple targets. 1777% damage divided amongst 7 targets 253.8% per target. Making it one of the only hard hitting attacks monks get and it has a 30 second cooldown while costing 1/3 of my spirit pool and the damage is mediocre when compared to other classes. Example: Barbarian with seismic slam deals 240% weapon damage to all enemies across a 45 yard fan and only costs 30 fury, I.E. one warcry. The only thing monk has that can compare to that would be wave of light which has higher damage, only a line attack, and costs over double. Not exactly practical. While 7 sided strike is easily the single best boss killing attack they have, perhaps even game wide, it's applications for normal grinding and act running are limited and it's practically unusable for late game. 2 more points left I wish to make. The next one is...

Spirit. The system for spirit v other resources isn't very well balanced. Most monk attacks require way too much spirit for what damage they deal and your spirit pool is very limited. While one may say "But BARBS ONLY HAS 100!!!" to which I say barbs have more ways of generating fury as well have better fury management built into their class. Example Battle rage with into the fray rune makes it so that you have a chance to generate 15 fury per crit, With this in mind, lets say you WW into a group of enemies with an axe using weapons master and ruthless with decent crit chance/damage gear. Odds are if you live you'll have near full spirit when you exit. On top of the barbs get fury from breaking barrels and Warcry GENERATES fury vs spends it. The only way a monk generates spirit is through primary attacks.... which brings me to my final major point.

While each spirit generator is relatively generous with the amount in relation to say a barb the issue is that there's no way to quickly generate spirit over a short time through skills alone and when most skills cost a minimum of 1/6th of your pool and a max of one half (and yes I know exalted soul adds 100 spirit but putting that into a character build who's survivability is related to dodging is tricky... if not impossible) the spirit you spend doesn't come back as fast as you need it to. You don't heal for as much as you need to when you get hit multiple times in a row. The only skill that generates spirit fast is without runes is fists of thunder, which is single target, when you extend the reach it's handy however it's either not enough or too dangerous (IE Bounding light or thunder clap) and you still don't have that crowd control you'd like and will spend a ton of time kiting around. Deadly reach suffers from similar problems and is MUCH slower making it a good kiting technique but not exactly very fitting of the holy warrior to banish evil with 2 fist weapons. While some runes are helpful for CC, you find that the speed of the attack makes it suffer too much in the long term. Crippling wave, my favorite. I like this attack because it has decent range and is radial to you, while it's slow it can generate spirit quickly in large crowds or stubborn elites with the rising tide rune. The attacks fault you might ask? I'll get into the biggest fault in a bit however the problem immediately is that The natural choice is rising tide. Because spirit is your life blood. Without it you end up suffering in any kind of lengthy encounter. Damage rune sure it helps but run into elites with shielding, increased health and/or are overall bulky or mobile and suddenly that damage buff means very little. especially with molten or jailer and desecration. Concussion doesn't seem to do enough either for damage mitigation either. Used to roll with that for a long time and again. You lose the life blood of the class. Tsunami is great for groups along with breaking wave. But by yourself it doesn't do much. Leaving us to way of the hundred fists. Skill is fun and very potent for damage compared to the others however it's spirit generation is slow making it's use for dual wielding limited unless you use spirited salvo. Now you CAN be very successful without it. It's not impossible however you find yourself not spending your spirit as much as you'd like to for mantra spamming mid fight or overall just giving you an extra little edge. You're relying on the attack itself and your damage control skills to keep you standing. The major problem with all of these skills is simply they're all weak with the exception of way of the hundred fists. Every one of them deals 110% damage Base. all barb ones deal 140% base minus frenzy which increases your attack speed up to 75% which more than makes up for it. Plus their core stat = armor giving them a buff that has less diminishing returns. The barb comparisions are simply because it's the other melee class. While I don't want my monk to be barb 2.0 I do want balance between them and to be able to do similar things to what my barb can. Like freely use my spirit knowing I CAN get it back within a reasonable amount of time without using every gimmick in the book to do so. Right now monk is a juggling act with 7 chainsaws where the barb is juggling with 3 oranges. Reduce the juggling act of gimmicks and defense stacking and make dodging worth major investment.

In closing notes I want to state 3 more brief things. 1. Exploding palms buff is great however the + damage rune for it does almost nothing. It's barely noticeable and I've spend 3 hours playing with it. This needs a fix. Impending doom is silly now that you've increased the time it lasts to 9 seconds and essence burn doesn't do enough. It either needs more damage for 3 seconds or it needs to last longer giving you real time to benefit from the explosion. 2. Mantra of Healing and Mantra of Retribution are.... sad. They in no way shine over the other 2 in any real sense. They have nice things that sound good on paper. But when you try it you find you need more desperately. 3. The passives do not compliment the styles of play well and monk lacks the defense to actually be able to use the ones that could be useful. I would love to use exalted soul and transcendence.. I just literally can't plus they seem to tailor more to the 2 handed builds which lack the same defense as dual wield. Only one skill actually tailors towards dual wield and that's guardians path. On a dodge mechanic that simply isn't potent enough. nothing else screams dual wield. Nothing to increase IAS, nothing to increase spirit gen, nothing to increase survivability. Combination strike is silly since you eat up skill slots for a meager damage buff and lose out on survivability. It's nice for multiple purpose builds however the damage buff isn't anything noteworthy and it eats up minimum 1 skill slot that you could have used for something to hit hard or something to help you live. It needs either something to make me want it or B it needs to be gone and replaced. Same with beacon of ytar. 15% cooldown reduction of a 15 second skill is 2.25 seconds. off of a 30 second skill it's 4.5 seconds. It isn't enough to make me want it. It's barely enough to make me look at it in relation to 7 sided strike and I laugh at it for pretty much everything else. It needs a buff or it needs to be replaced.

I've played for about 600 hours been taking a break from a bad set of farming runs to play Borderlands 2. I do love diablo as a series and diablo 3 is a good game despite what people love to flame about. Diablo 2 didn't become amazing until 1.10 and LOD and the addition of late game stuff. Diablo 3 will be no different. The overall structure is strong it just needs tweeks and balances and bonus things to do and it will be much better than Diablo 2. That I have no doubts. I'd love to see it and keep working hard. But this is something I simply can't sit idle about.

And if you examine my profile I want everyone to note. My monk has high end crits from buffs around 80k and I've put a lot of gold and time into it. My barb is all hand-me-downs and stuff I found... it's normal swings crit for 100k minimum and 200k crits with seismic slam. Don't tell me monk is okay. Barbs should be strong monks should be able to compete with speed, and finesse. And I'm not seeing it yet.

Keyword: Yet
P.S. Sorry for the essay
We feel that monks are in a decent place at the moment, and are a solid class in terms of power, but there are some things that we would like to address with the class. Namely: we would like to delve deeper into fulfilling the fantasy of what it means to be a monk.

Currently, monks spend a lot of their time applying an assortment of DPS buffs through the use of utility and survivability buttons. The bulk of monk damage comes from very passive gameplay, like healing yourself to get a damage buff, or applying Sweeping Winds and not looking at it again. We want to give players who enjoy the fantasy of being a blur of fists and feet a more active playstyle, and we’d love to play up some other fun mechanics as well.

For example, one possibility we’re considering is changing one of Dashing Strike’s runes to allow players to travel further with the skill so that it can serve as a mobility tool, but at the cost of imposing a cooldown. Another possibility we’re exploring is making Lashing Tail Kick feel more compelling by moving the knockback component to a rune, or changing a rune to remove the knockback and instead increase the damage more meaningfully. These types of changes are not minor tweaks, however. We want to make sure we take some time to make meaningful changes that improve the overall play experience for these sacred warriors.


Frankly I dont care alot about monks but I just had to respond to the "We feel that" part. Stop doing that. So far you guys have been 99% dead wrong on "feeling" what your playerbase wants and needs. The forum and ingame chat is flooded with people who still laugh about the drop rate and the way legendaries work, yet Jay releases a blog about how to fix crowd-control, something NO ONE EVER complained or cared about.
10/03/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
We feel that monks are in a decent place at the moment


place? In the grave..
I've compiled a few changes to make the Monk class more viable you may wanna review:

"General changes:
-Base regeneration of Spirit is increased to 1 per second.
-After death, the Spirit gauge is always completely refilled.
-All healing skills have their effect increased by the factor 2.5.

Skill changes
Active skills:
-Every rune of Fists of Thunder has the ability to teleport.
-Deadly Reach damage is increased to 120%.
-Crippling Wave damage is increased to 120%. Mangle rune damage is increased to 155%.

Secondary skills:
-Lashing Tail Kick damage is increased to 250%. Damage of its runes is increased accordingly. Cost is reduced to 20 Spirit.
-Wave of Light cost is reduced to 60 Spirit. Empowered Wave rune cost is reduced to 30 Spirit.

Defensive skills:
-Blinding Flash: Faith in the Light rune is removed.
-Breath of Heaven: Blazing Wrath rune is removed. Instead a new rune grants 8% of damage dealt as life over 5 seconds, similar to the barb’s Rend/Bloodlust ability. This ensures this skill not being a damage buff anymore, while maintaining a somewhat offensive characteristic.
-Inner Sanctuary skill is entirely removed, since a stationary skill does not fit a class based on speed and agility.

Techniques:
-Dashing strike: Rooting time is increased to 2 seconds.
-Exploding Palm: Additionally to its already existing effects, a target marked by this skill receives 40% additional damage over the duration of the effect, similar to the Demon Hunter’s Marked for Death ability.
-Sweeping Wind: Since Innas’ 4-Set-Bonus can’t be changed, the duration of this skill is increased to 8 seconds instead. Master of Wind duration is increased to 25 seconds accordingly.
-To compensate for the loss of the damage boost provided by Breath of Heaven, a new skill is introduced. It grants 10% increased attack speed over 30 seconds. There is a rune which grants additional 8% damage to further compensate, especially for the loss of the Faith in the Light rune.

Focus:
-Cyclone Strike cost is reduced to 30 Spirit.
-Seven-Sided Strike cost is reduced to 40 Spirit.
-Mystic Ally cost is increased to 50 Spirit. To compensate, durability on Level 60 is upped by 40%.

Mantras:
-The Mantra of Retribution is removed, since a reflecting damage skill doesn’t fit a class based on dodging attacks. Instead, a new Mantra of Resistance is introduced, which grants the same effect as One with Everything, i.e. giving you your highest single resist as all resist.

Passive skills:
-Resolve: Amount of damage reduction decreased to 20%. (As in Patch 1.05)
-Transcendence: Amount of healing is upped by 100% to compensate for the decreased Spirit cost for most abilities.
-Seize the Initiative: Amount of dexterity to armor transition is reduced to 70%.
-The Guardian’s Path: Dual-wielding dodge chance is increased to 20%. Two-handed weapon Spirit generation is upped to 60%.
-Sixth Sense: Upped to 40%.
-Beacon of Ytar: Upped to 20%. (As in Patch 1.05)
-Guiding Light: Affects heals on yourself as well, but only from active skills, not from Transcendence. Everybody who still wants Breath of Heaven in his skill bar can use this skill to compensate for the loss of the Blazing Wrath rune.
-One with Everything: Since the newly introduced Mantra of Resistance grants the effects of the old One with Everything, the skill is changed to grant the amount of all your single resist combined divided by 3. This makes the skill a viable, but not mandatory choice, while ensuring the maintaining of the worth of current gear.
-Combination Strike: Upped to 10% for 5 seconds.
-Near Death Experience: Cooldown reduced to 60 seconds. (As in Patch 1.05)
-----------------
The numbers I provided aren’t set in stone and some further balancing might be needed. However, to my mind these changes would make the Monk’s skill building more diverse and a better fit to its class description. They would also provide some possibilities to buff the Monk’s damage aside from gear.

Please feel free to comment or disagree. Since English isn’t my native language, any grammar or word correction would be appreciated."
Why do you guys bother posting? It's clear they don't care. They are not listening to you. Simple as that. Just wanted to throw that public service announcement out there.

My friend got me a gift card to buy the new Starcraft but I think the best thing I can do is never buy a Blizzard product again. It's clear they've gone off the rails. I'll be getting a controller for Borderlands 2.

Can't put my D3 disc in the microwave fast enough after this blue post.
I'll come back in 1.0.6 to see if Blue changed their minds on Monks
There are so many problems with monks it's rediculous. I can't believe they have the nerve to say monks are in a good place.

All I can say is, gear up a barb, witchdoctor or wizard with 100M in gear and try to do the same on a monk and play each one for a week and then tell us WHY you think monks are ok.

1 - heals don't scale
2 - Dodge is RND
3 - Passives are just not good enough
Mantra of Conviction is a bit too attractive as a way to get damage out of spirit because Wave of Light and Lashing Tail Kick are so weak on a damage per spirit basis. Spirit-generating gear is all too rare, and the only other way to get spirit out of gear rather than skill choices is with attack speed. High attack speed favors using a spirit generator with Mantra of Conviction and Sweeping Wind: Cyclone instead of a spirit spender.

The effect of Quickening, Strike from Beyond, and Rising Tide should be taken off runes, and possibly away from spirit generators. Those sorts of things need to be in a passive that allows them to function with Lashing Tail Kick and Wave of Light in some manner such that spirit is not infinite, but spirit spenders can compete with spirit generators for a fight longer than 10 seconds. As long as the great majority of your combat actions are spirit generators, builds that emphasize them will stay on top. Other classes have such diverse builds because they're resource generation isn't so rigidly defined by a small subset of skills. Fix that and it will go a long way towards giving us build diversity.

The 2 hand effect of Guardian's Path should be baseline too. 2 hand users shouldn't need a passive to compete with dual wield's spirit generation when dual wield so easily competes with a 2 hand user's DPS.

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