Request for response on state of Monks..

General Discussion
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While there are currently solid build options for monks both in 1.0.4 and 1.0.5, and while top-tiered monks using very specific builds can achieve respectable damage, the class isn’t yet where we want it to be. We’re definitely aware of your concerns, and we agree that additional improvements should be made, especially with regards to play style options, build diversity, and the performance and budget of monk resources. We feel that the monk has the most potential for improvement, and we have plans to make more changes to the monk after 1.0.5. The sort of changes we’d like to make are not simple number tweaks, though.

Ultimately, we want to make monks more engaging to play and really immerse players in what it would feel like to be a fast-punching martial arts master. We have a number of ideas on how to accomplish that for the future, and we want to provide improved passives, particularly passives that can be used for a more offensively-minded monk. I also mentioned two other possible changes we’re considering in[url=""] my previous post[/url], but those certainly aren’t the only changes we’re looking into. They address another area we feel could use improvement, and that’s giving players some additional, more active play style options.

We have more improvements planned and they’re still only in the discussion phase, so we’re not really in a place right now to talk about them in much detail, but we’re actively working towards solutions to address many key concerns.
I'm extremely grateful for this. This is steps ahead of the first post you have made, Vaeflare. At least now we know we are getting recognition for some of these problems that Monks have been struggling with.

But please, time is very much of the essence. Many monks have already re-rolled or quit the game altogether. We as a community need to see something, anything, concrete as soon as it becomes available. Even just a single change such as scaled healing, or reversing the STI nerf for 1.0.5 would truely give us some peace at mind. It would be a good faith gesture so that we could rest a little easier, knowing Blizzard and the D3 team truely are listening to our concerns. Please don't make us wait until 1.0.6 before we see something that will honestly help us.

Again, thank you for this latest post on our particular situation. And remember, this is very much a fixable problem. And we're all just really very upset at the dodgey behavior from you and your comrades. The more we hear from you guys the better. It makes us feel important when our cries are heard. Like we, too, are a part of the team. I for one will not lose faith, at least not yet. And it's due entirely to this latest thread. Thank you.

Ok well I'm done complaining ans venting when it changes it changes
Actions speak louder than words. I am shelving my monk until the numerous problems illustrated in the past 44 pages are constructively dealt with. I will be leveling up and playing with my barbarian until then.
10/05/2012 08:51 AMPosted by rubsesh
Lol put a barb in my gear and see what he does that's stats accordingly...

if dev team could do that monk problems will be solved quickly.
10/04/2012 07:38 PMPosted by Nickoli
Yah cut ww down because it has been the flavor of the month sense the last patch

Where u been bro? WW is officially Flavor of the Year build - Jay Wilson approved

Well looks like you monks are getting your lovin.......just AFTER 1.05. So you're basically going to be released sucky this patch and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Wow, that sucks. I feel for y'all but at least you starting from bottom and just getting better instead of my class that's like "Oh sweet this is going to be awesome, nerf nerf nerf nerf - well there goes that build, and that one, and that one'.
Thanks for the Monk update Vaeflare. I play both a monk and a barb at 60 and the monk definitely needs some love. I think your idea of adding offensive passives is a great start, but might I suggest another improvement that would drastically help the monk to be a fun class to play which are it's movement skills.

It’s kind of ridiculous that lumbering oaf like the barbarian can out maneuver an agile monk with a vast assortment of skills such as Leap, Sprint, Furious Charge and the crazy run speed bonus from WOTB.

Even if you do increase the DPS of the monk it still feels like class that has very few options to close the gap between his or her opponent and escape from sticky situations if needed. While Dashing strike is nice it’s very hard to put it in your build and still have a viable build that can clear inferno. Dashing Strike also has very weak runes except for maybe "Flying Side Kick" - (60% chance 1.5 sec stun). Another dowsnside to dashing strike is that it needs a target to work, which might be ok for attacking but not always useful if your trying to escape.

One of the biggest problems with the monk in my opinion is that we have to use a slot for our Mantras and no other class has to use a slot to run a skill that is basically essential to its purpose in the game. This from the start basically cuts our skill choices from 6 to 5. I think it would be a great idea to give the monk a free mantra slot that they cannot use for any other skills except for mantras. This would open up our builds and allow us to take skills like Dashing Strike or an additional skill to help attack our opponents.
10/04/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Vaeflare
We have more improvements planned and they’re still only in the discussion phase, so we’re not really in a place right now to talk about them in much detail, but we’re actively working towards solutions to address many key concerns.

You will get better ideas if you involve more people (us) in your discussion
About the OwE, I have a suggestion that I think would make everyone happy without being unfair or overpowered.

Make this passive become a standard trait for the monk and change the way how OwE passive works.

I'll try to explain.

The monk should have the innate characteristic of the actual OwE from the start as a basic trait. So we can stack the same resistence the way we all did but without sacrificing a passive slot or making our actual gear useless or deflating in value.

The OwE should instead change in this way: every different resistence can stack together (it's called one with everything, not one with cold or arcane resistence).

So who chooses to use it, can stack poison, cold or anything together, without having to add the same res all the time. In this way there are various advantages upon the current situation:

1: we still have the possibility to stack only a single resistance like we did from the start, so no gear change needed and no more mandatory OwE

2: we can now CHOOSE to stack even more different res upon our main one by choosing the new OwE passive (for exemple I have andariel visage with poison res and I'm a cold monk, if I choose this passive I can add 50+ res to my total res that would go to waste, useful but not overpowered)

3: who chooses the new OwE can more easily stack res, allowing more basic survivability to allow the use of different builds less focused on defensive abilities at the expense of a passive slot

4: no more days spent on AH looking for the specific item with the specific main res, in case we choose the new OwE

I think this is a very balanced and fair solution with no real drawback both in terms of gameplay and items value, what do you think ?

now you are talking
Maybe is my perception but this feels like we will nerf OWE and boost the others to a minimal amount so they feel powerful.....

bite your tongue
From PTR 1.05 notes:

•Elite modifiers have been changed slightly at higher levels:
•The minimum stun duration required for most Elites is now 0.65 seconds (up from 0.5 seconds); stuns less than 0.65 seconds will have no effect

now CLICK on this:!!..b

:Blinding Echo
6 seconds after using Blinding Flash, a second flash of light will blind enemies within 20 yards for 0.5 seconds.

another useless rune.
I play both a barb and a monk, here's my view on the monk issue, if not been said already before by others:

First I think the cook cutter build is fine. Please don't change (cough nerf) the skills. However it gets boring very quickly. I think the underlying issue is more than the fact that the build being a left click spam fiesta. It's the monk's defense system, as a whole, that lacks dynamic compared to other class.

In terms of gameplay, I think most monk's offensive skills are fine. As you can see I play a different build, it's a 'tanky' build that works around a 2 handed weapon and exploiting WoE Backlash. I also play a ranged build with WoL Explosive Light, very fun and powerful build to play with, melting enemies with 1m crits and silencing the screen in 1 shot is very satisfying, and the unlimited Tempest Rush is just icing on the cake. And of course I play FoT build too, in case you wonder. Monk offensive is fine overall, except for certain skills that need a lot of work, but it's fine- people just need to be more creative.

Monk's defense on the other hand, is horribly shallow. I think there are 2 big reasons for it.

First, the dodge problem. What concerns me the most is how bland the defensive skills that works with dodge are. All they do is add more dodge. Let's take a look at what barbs' defensive skills do. You have Warcry that fuels your resource, Ignore Pain with 5 viable runes, Leap which itself is a both getaway and an offensive skill (that gives fury too!), Defensive Passives that gives you fury, plus many many offensive skills with life leech/ mitigation to choose from. So in terms of barb's defense concept, you have a lot to choose from. For monk however, you have MoE Backlash and that's about it. I have to say I really love Backlash, it gives dodge more depth. But all other skills that interacts with dodge just gives more dodge, and that's bad. There's no interaction of any sort, and everyone knows there's diminishing returns in stacking dodge.

Secondly, On building monk's defense we always have to sacrifice one thing for another. Say, Mantra. If we choose dodge we can't have damage reflect, or spirit regen. If we use Dashing strike for mobility we won't be using Tempest Rush (well you can but you would be overlapping resource). etcetcetc. For barbs that's never the case; you can fit in anything or even everything if you want. I think that aspect of monk needs some serious work.

Lastly I want to talk about the resource system. I think the current system is fine as it is. The problem lies with the cost of acquiring gear with spirit regen. Only a few item slots rolls spirit regen, and they don't come cheap at all. If you can make spirit regen on spirit stones a mandatory stat like IAS on quivers I think it would help fix the problem.
I don't think tying the regen system to gear was ever a good idea. Just give us passive 2/s, which would amount to the same thing. Doesn't solve the problem though (it's more of a band-aid).

As far as OWE is concerned, it is a perfectly designed skill that needs no change. It gives you a good benefit, but comes at a huge drawback, as it decimates your choice of gear. The reason why it's mandatory is because dodge flat out sucks for all the reasons already mentioned, and monks don't have any other good defensive options. The reason it is mandatory is the same as the reason all gear needs to have all res on it to be worthwhile.

I agree that Monk defenses are shallow, and this is the reason why the defense nerf hurts so much.
aren't you thankful!?

sad monk is sad
I dream of a rebuild
1. Who uses Dashing Strike.. (If there is one thing a monk doesn't need help with it's mobility)
2. Knockback is terrible for groups.
4. And most important: Blizzard, why is it your philosophy that every time you make a skill or ability that people like and/or use you nerf it so people will use other !@#$tier skills. You did a good job with Seize The Initiative -- LEAVE IT BE. People use it because it's good and there's nothing wrong with that. No matter what you do to passives, people will still use 90% of the same ones; you'll just loose 50% of your monk player base for having them have to use resolve in conjunction with STI @50% (so we basically loose the third passive that is the only difference you see between monks).
People still have gear (more important than any skills/passive) and their 6 selectable skills to be different since that for some reason is obviously a huge deal to you?

Please, if you could reply to this telling me just real quick, why it matters at all if most people use the same passive set up? It's not an MMO. We don't come together and work off each others skills. [this isn't EQ; oh sorry I'd say WoW but you did a fairly jitty job of making classes necessary in WoW as well. Though it be a fun game.]
I play both a barb and a monk snip

This post is probably the most fair post I've read about the subject and the one I agree most with. I have put over 400+ hours in my Monk (probably closer to 500 or 600... whatev). And although I love the idea of the Monk, the execution has been very poor.

Dodge suffers from too much diminishing returns to actually build off of it, I personally LOVE the Blacklash rune. But there has to be more done with dodge. This can be accomplished a number of ways (like buffing passives, etc), just read around the threads people have posted.

Also, fix our resource. The most simple way is to add passive regen, that is small like 1 spirit: 3 seconds or something, and/or you can remove the IAS nerf to Monk weapons, which a lot of Monks would like.

Lastly I'd like to see a buff to our passives. They all seem very bland. Seriously, we don't even have a passive that +crit chance. A LOH passive would be great IMHO (a bit OP, maybe?)
10/03/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Vaeflare
For example, one possibility we’re considering is changing one of Dashing Strike’s runes to allow players to travel further with the skill so that it can serve as a mobility tool, but at the cost of imposing a cooldown.

Seriously? You guys really are idiots if you think this will make anyone choose dashing strike. Here is a hint. Two of our spirit generators already have mobility tools built into them and DON'T cost me spirit on a toon that is virtually always resource starved. Brilliant. Oh wait, I forgot, you guys will just nerf those two runes to make Dashing Strike "more appealling." Stop. Just. Stop.

It is clear that the "vision" the devs have for each of the classes shifts on a month to month basis in an ongoing effort to force us to use the RMAH. There is absolutely no congruence in playstyle from patch to patch and it has already driven me to another game. It is truly a sad fact that the only developers that actually knew how to design an ARPG left the company a long time ago. Thanks for the MMO crossover. It sucks.
I think the issue with monk is this:

Monk class is the class that involves least playing skill. I know Diablo 3 is more about gear than playing skills but ranged class need to kite enemies and when you kite, playing skills for sure plays a role there. Plus, kite can be fun for ranged class. Barb is not a ranged class but they have ranged attacks like weapon throw and their many kills allow them to kite enemies too.

Monk on the other hand is the worst in kiting enemies. Dashing strike makes you dash to the enemies but you cannot Dash out when you are about to die. So basically with monk, you engage enemies and hope to survive with Serenity, Breath of Heaven, Blind light and potion. You basically pop each of these in order and if you still didn't kill enemies and your life on hit and life steal can't keep your health, you just die. Yes you can try escape out of the fight you can't win and kite the enemies until your cool down is over. However Monk has almost 0 skill that allow them to escape from a fight easy. The only thing you can do is try your best to walk away from the fight.

I think changing Dashing Strike to make it a mobility skill is a very good thing. You can engage a fight then dash out to escape. Tempest rush can also do the same thing but it is useless right now until you have gears to support its fury cost. So try to use Tempest Rush is like magic find. You give up kickass gears to get gear with fury regen which is bad for players because the dilemma in choosing gears that worth real money makes the game less fun.

By the way, look at my WD's spear. It is one of the most godly spears (in terms of damage output) I have ever seen for Monk but why did I let my WD use it instead of Monk? The reason is simple, that spear has slow attack speed, no life on hit and no life steal. Because Monk can't escape a fight to kite enemies easy, an offensive only monk is close to impossible to play and very no fun at all. You have to make all your gears extremely defensive so that you can hope enemies die before you ran out of defensive options like Breath of Heaven, then Serenity then potion ...etc This is why I give my Monk's spear to WD and my monk is using a low damage life sucking Axe on main hand and offhand with a Echoing Fury which also have life steal to boost attack speed so my monk can suck life even faster.
Funny I spent about 120 million and I only have 40k dps? Barbarian. Buff the barbarian :D!
Funny, I spent 10M on my barbarian and have only 43k DPS. Buff the barbarian! :D
10/04/2012 07:21 PMPosted by Vaeflare
we have plans to make more changes to the monk after 1.0.5.


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