Request for response on state of Monks..

General Discussion
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Although its is suggested that we monks have crap build diversity, crap cost efficiency, crap resource, crap passives with no offensive passives, less mobile than most chars, and a ton much much weaker than barbs offensively and defensively... I could (maybe) understand blizz if fixing these issues may take some time.

However the pressing concern is on our survivability in the PTR, which can be solved by mere tweaking in numbers. And most likely blizz have the tools to get data on just how much monk dies in comparison to other classes (edit: on higher mp levels).. I'll be baffled if they pass this to 1.06

It would have been simple by just reducing the STI nerf, or improving dodge/dex for defense, make LpSS more useful, make heals better and scale, get some res more likely on inna's grandeur, or buff the other defensive passives (transcendence, etc)

Must blizzard fear if they make us monks too good in terms of defense? Must a shield be necessary? How many times have you seen martial artist/shaolin monks use shields in movies? (I haven't and personally shield on monk looks stupid). Isn't that supposed to be our niche? Monks are already the tankers 95% of time on coop games. Hell, defense isn't EVEN the trend of this game as it doesn't help more than dps does in terms of farming..
Agree w Brokengamer. Why can't Blizz implement the simpler changes in 1.0.5 - less of a nerf to defensive passives, reduce cost or increase duration of SW, implement spirit re-gen, better 3 piece bonus on innas, swap dodge and cc around on 6th sense, combo strike damage increase so viable when using single primary etc. The longer we wait for monk buffs the further and further monks will fall behind.
^^ Agree with Brokengamer too. Monks lack a proper design vision. The gameplay experience for monks continues to be uniquely bad without a defined design vision and demonstrably more costly and weaker to play at comparable gear cost. Those who bailed ship went on to offer a 2.2/10 rating for Diablo 3 on Amazon. Those of us who are still waiting don't want to give up on this game and the development, but it's getting to the point after game release that glaring balance issues should already be addressed. Given the primary PvE gameplay, stop nerfing classes into the ground. Bring them up to the farming potential of a barb instead of telling us each class is equivalently powerful -- no one is buying it.
Nerfing Seize the Initiative is pointless to improve diversity of monk builds.

Most of the monks on the ptr don't actually give it up, even it has been nerfed to 50%.

Why? Because having 3k armor is a suicide when you are in any MP level above maybe 3 or 4.
Monk needs dex, vit and all resist (and single resist?) on their gears. Now the +def is going to become mandatory.

Diversity? I don't think so ....
Nerfing Seize the Initiative is pointless to improve diversity of monk builds.

Most of the monks on the ptr don't actually give it up, even it has been nerfed to 50%.

Why? Because having 3k armor is a suicide when you are in any MP level above maybe 3 or 4.
Monk needs dex, vit and all resist (and single resist?) on their gears. Now the +def is going to become mandatory.

Diversity? I don't think so ....

I also find their change most confusing. It is suicidal to give up Seize the Initiative and One with Everything at the same time.
As someone who got even more into d2 in the last few years than ever before, I was always trying to create new viable builds. Usually the goal was to find most of my own items, limit frees etc. I wanted to spread out my skills, 8 here six there, in hopes of creating my own synergetic skill combos. Of course like most if not all d2 builds I relied heavily on plus skills and I suppose I needed more than most. The point is, the cookie cutter builds were pretty much the only way to go and even then you relied on skill charms and other rare/tedious to find gear. Sorcs pretty much couldn't kill everything solo. Plus it took forever to roll characters solo which I still enjoyed doing. The bottom line is some people could roll on a ladder reset like total masters. Not all players are created equal. After much strife my monk is getting through inferno on less than 500,000 gold. I lately have been stuck at less than 1 k and hate dying. The monk doesn't have as much power as a barb, but I doubt they 10 hit kill ghom. Without OWE that sounds difficult to me. I almost spent a few dollars on gear but found really good and cheap light gear to replace my hi vita low dex cold gear. Plus I lucked out a long time ago on a pretty good weapon. Just use the auction house. Decent cheap item bids just expire all the time. You could even trade it like stocks if more people played. Ps all the whiny posts are scaring people away. More people equals cheaper better items on ah and blizzard will actually have a reason to think we care. As it stands they are forced to respond to unreasonable players. This game is not perfect but it does have a ton of potential
I'm just glad they even consider diversity. I have not need STI for a while. I like the monks other passives. I have found BOY, FF, COR (my fav cause it seems so crappy, well it could be better I suppose) , ES, NDE all to be helpful. And I seem to die quickly with resolve and a daibo..
Oh yeah, multiplayer probably does suck though. I don' t do nearly enough damage for it not too. Would probably use all defensive sills and try to tank.
Last thing.. Weren't people saying demon hunters were the best farming class? Now it's barbs... They both seem less tanky than monks to me. Spirit use is annoying with low damage but for awhile I was able to use chant of resonance, exalted soul, inner storm and mantra of healing spirit regen rune to be able to drop a bunch of bells between SSS. But now I need mythic ally and resist rune on my mantra. This games just really hard.
10/07/2012 05:36 PMPosted by seraphim
^^ Agree with Brokengamer too. Monks lack a proper design vision. The gameplay experience for monks continues to be uniquely bad without a defined design vision and demonstrably more costly and weaker to play at comparable gear cost.
This. According to the description by Blizzard, monks are supposed to be hardy, agile, and have lots of staying power.

"Skilled monks deliver rapid-fire attacks unarmed or with a variety of well-balanced weapons. In combat, they emphasize high maneuverability over staying power, darting in and out of melees and avoiding protracted slugfests."

"Monks’ attacks are primarily melee-focused. They can eliminate single foes with extreme damage, or deliver short-range area-of-effect assaults with waves of elemental power that emanate from palm strikes or crescent kicks."

Monks do not feel like this at all. Monks feel weak, slow, and the only reason to avoid protracted slugfests is to wait for defensive cooldowns. Monks don't use palm strikes or crescent kicks as the game is currently played. Exploding Palm is one of the worst Spenders a Monk has, especially if they play MPX or multiplayer. Lashtail Kick is also pretty bad, seemingly to not benefit from IAS, and consume too much Spirit for it's power output.

"Monks are also the only heroes trained to use daibo – banded lengths of wood used to crack skulls and whirled to deflect attacks." What happened to the "deflects attacks" part?

If you want to fix Monk survivability, add in weapon block. It would be a great stop-gap for the huge RNG dodge that doesn't work.
10/05/2012 11:36 AMPosted by Lylirra
I have been under the impression that while there is no specific change planned for OWE, there is a plan that OWE will eventually be changed somehow to make it a less mandatory passive.

You're correct, that's still the plan. I'm just saying we don't have any specific changes for OWE at the moment.

Lylirra, It seems that the main focus of a change to OWE is to make it a "less mandatory" skill passive.

I believe your company prides itself on out the the box thinking so I'm wondering if you are able to comment if thoughts have been made regarding other approaches.

For example, instead of being so fixated on changing this one -crucial- passive monks rely on, why not find out completely, why almost every monk use it. The obvious reason you have voiced is the fact that it is a very good armour passive and no need to say, most monk would love to use it to be able to afford cheaper gear as well. Makes it very favorable already don't you think?

However, I believe a large, overlooked factor we are simple not tackling is that there are simple not enough favorable passives for monks to choose from. Tweaking with OWE will anger many people, no matter what you do. But, tweaking with lesser used skill, make them more enticing thus make people want to work toward moving away from OWE. I think this, will help grow the monk community and variety.

Monks please share your thoughts, honestly what would you replace anyway with OWE, I mean really want to replace. Not just half-hearted, I guess I will just go with this "passive" know.

Thank you.

If you want OWE to become a less mandatory passive, can you please fix the obvious broken ones?

Sixth Sense - maybe the worst passive in the game - 30% of crit chance goes to dodge. You need 50% crit to even get benefit of Guardian's Path (15% when dual wielding). Who has 50% crit as a monk? And do they really want to use a passive on dodge that is subject to diminishing returns at 50% dodge?

EASY FIX - SWITCH THE THEM. 30% of YOUR DODGE goes to YOUR CRIT CHANCE. This would allow Mantra of Evasion to be actually on par with Mantra of Conviction - the only mantra every endgame monk uses currently. Remember: Build Diversity!

How about Combination Strike? Its based off of beta skills, when Sweeping Wind and Exploding Palm where considered generators - a lot has changed! How about something along the lines of a "reverse Stormchaser" -

New Combination Strike - Every spirit generator attack you deal gives you a stack of 8%-15% combo damage for your finisher, max 5 stacks (total 40%-75%), stacks decay after 2 seconds. The next Lashing Tail Kick or Exploding Palm you use deals 40-75% more damage. Maybe these skills would actually be used then. No one in their right mind uses them currently.

This is also assuming you change Lashing Tail Kick, or at least the rune Spinning Flame Kick and maybe Vulture Claw Kick as well to DPS runes. I don't want all of LTK's CC and enemy placement thrown out the window - but I would like to see it be more versatile than what it is currently - pure CC and placement.

For Exploding Palm, let's face it - its a single target DoT that is NO WHERE CLOSE to what Rend can do, which is AoE on the first tick. Monks have to wait 9s for this thing to go off now. Diablo is a great fast pace game and 9s to wait for something to die is a very long time in 1.0.4. In 1.0.5, at high MP levels, ya the 30% max HP monster damage will be huge, but it will be too burdensome to use efficiently for 90% of players, you are asking for nearly perfect timing. The skill needs some sort of rework - maybe give it a rune like Explosive Blash - Short Fuse. Rune - Instead of damage over time, Exploding Palm deals X% dmg (where X% is less than 745% weapon dmg, but not overly low), if target dies to this attack, 30% of its hp explodes as dmg. I would say change Strong Spirit - it is a very weak rune currently. Your team can be creative with the new name of the instant damage rune to replace it with.

It seems obvious that some of the monk passives were misguided or overlooked for a long time. Nerfing STI and OWE is not the answer in and of itself.

GIVE THE MONK CLASS SOME HOPE! That's all we ask. I don't want to be a 1.0.4 WW Barbarian in terms of power. But if your goal is to have monks try and explore build options - we need alternatives first.

Thank you for Reading,
Fernist - Lover of the class of Monk, but frustrated with its current direction.

EDIT: Played with some numbers on Combination Strike revamped. And also tied it in with you previous blue post on LTK then did some Exploding Palm thoughts.
woops doubled posted
You forgot to mention how awful guiding light is. But your points are very valid
I don't know enough to call the Barbarian class overpowered. I do know I've been playing a Monk far longer than any other class...since the beginning when I liked it for whatever reason. Now I can't switch classes because of the Paragon levels. Unless a patch allows paragon levels for two level 60 characters switched.

Perhaps the other four classes are nearly matched in one way or the other, but I actually read 5 pages of comments(including an idiot moderator posting that mistake in blue font) where players are trying to identify why Blizzard hates, and the primary issue, why is the Monk "broken".

Unlike Intelligence, a few thousand Dexterity points don't allow a player to shrug off the occasional arcane laser to the face. And dodging the first 1-2 physical attacks is great until the 3rd hit deals serious damage since Dexterity doesn't add to armor, either.

A seasoned Monk-user posted a nice, lengthy opinion including the class being often spirit-starved. They're right. The Monk has no innate spirit regen and few options to manually regain it. I leveled a Barbarian to 60, and (post 1.0.4) never used fury-expending attacks. Many of the skills actually generate Fury. All Monk skills cost Spirit. Except of course the primary punch skills.

Those are the root causes of dead Monks. Tanking is difficult, kiting for healing or regaining spirit is ineffective/impossible.

Breath of Heaven/Blazing Wrath
Mantra of Conviction/Overawe
Serenity/Ascension(but I still like Peaceful Repose :P)
Seize the Initiative, One With Everything

All of us do not use these for a skill formation. We use them to survive.
The game isn't destroyed. i played PTR and i had no trouble as a monk. in fact, i was able to change my build completely since i wasn't locked into my passives. I actually started playing around with the combination strike passive and its pretty awesome if done in a proper sequence. i like the idea of rebuilding my character as long as i can survive. MP0 is where everyone should start anyways. its where i will be so i can have some fun.
i think your right. none of the other passives seem good with the exception of combination strike. its being used because it is the best passive and although it is probably the best in the game, its the one that keeps us alive.

how about reduce the cooldowns of all skills. i would love to use seven sided strike, but the cooldown time seems a bit long. lowering the cooldown would not only give SSS a chance but will also make my character look how he should. blazing fist strikes all around at lightning speeds... Often... that would be sick. also the SSS should have a time duration so that fast builds have a better damage output. 7 strike from a guy that is really fast with moderate DPS wont do as much compared to a monk that is slow with a lot of DPS. the duration should mirror the attack speed not only in speed but damage as well. i noticed that my fast monk will do SSS so fast that it didnt really do anything for my character because my damage comes from the speed of my strikes and not the damage per strike. now i have to wait a long time to do it again. pretty lame. if it had a time duration then i would be doing decent damage at high attack speeds and it will look cool because im doing a lot of attacks.

if you still dont understand lets look at the problem again. the skill says that your character will do seven strikes with high damage output which is based of weapon damage. lets say im a monk that has 30k DPS but low attack speed. this would mean that a lot of my DPS comes from very few strikes. Damage per second is based on damage over time. if i attack slow then my damage per hit is high which make the SSS look pretty good. now lets say that im a monk that does 30k DPS that is really fast (thats me). my damage per attack is really low but my speed makes up for it because i attack more often. SSS is only over seven atacks. the damage increase isnt worth it because its based on my weapon damage which isnt very high. most people wont even think of this a would consider SSS to be a loss... but if you put in a time duration and lost the amount of strike then it would be good for any class. slow characters wont hit as many time (at least 7 time) but will do massive damage and fast characters will hit a lot of time but do similar damage over the same time duration. this would be a awesome upgrade to the skill and might take the place of serenity which most if not all monks use. creating more build diversity!!!
While there are currently solid build options for monks both in 1.0.4 and 1.0.5, and while top-tiered monks using very specific builds can achieve respectable damage, the class isn’t yet where we want it to be. We’re definitely aware of your concerns, and we agree that additional improvements should be made, especially with regards to play style options, build diversity, and the performance and budget of monk resources. We feel that the monk has the most potential for improvement, and we have plans to make more changes to the monk after 1.0.5. The sort of changes we’d like to make are not simple number tweaks, though.
Ultimately, we want to make monks more engaging to play and really immerse players in what it would feel like to be a fast-punching martial arts master. We have a number of ideas on how to accomplish that for the future, and we want to provide improved passives, particularly passives that can be used for a more offensively-minded monk. I also mentioned two other possible changes we’re considering in[url=""] my previous post[/url], but those certainly aren’t the only changes we’re looking into. They address another area we feel could use improvement, and that’s giving players some additional, more active play style options.

We have more improvements planned and they’re still only in the discussion phase, so we’re not really in a place right now to talk about them in much detail, but we’re actively working towards solutions to address many key concerns.

Thanks, Im building my monk in the way you mean it should be. :) and love my monk.
NO NO NO...the REAL question here is why is blizzard saying they want build diversity when barbs ALL use weapons master and ruthless.....

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