life on kill question on weapon

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11/19/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Lylirra
We definitely realize the way Life on Kill works right now isn't very co-op friendly


Diablo 3 in general terms isnt very co-op Friendly dude
Another option to make Archon more co-op friendly is to add to the timer a percentage of damage done (kind of like lifesteal).

It seems the majority of group play is done in high MP Ubers, and this change could make the Archon build viable at higher MP levels and in groups as well. This way the player is rewarded for contributing with high DPS, while balancing EHP to stay alive while nuking. Also, this eliminates the problem of leaching the group "on kill" update.

With this option there might need to be some sort of scaling as you progress through MP levels -- like LS as you adjust difficulty.
I think that life on Kill should returns a part of the total amount according to the number of player in the game (or vicinity) whoever get the killing blow.

Exemple: 2 players in the game should return 50% (or more if we want to take into account the higher life pool of co-op monsters) of the total value of Life On Kill no matters who killed the monster. 3 players coefficient should be 33% and 4 players should be 25%.

Dealing damage to a monster may or may not be required according to taste.
Bring back crushing blow from D2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And life on kill is fine and is more useful than regen 155 life per sec when mobs at high MP are hitting you for thousands.
11/19/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Lylirra
if i dmg a mob but my party member kills him instead, do i get the full percent HP return, a partial return based on dmg done, or no return in HP?


No, you don't receive a return in HP.

On a larger scale, this is something we've been discussing how to improve. We definitely realize the way Life on Kill works right now isn't very co-op friendly. When you're playing with a group of people and sharing your killing blows, the affix just doesn't have as much value as it does in solo games, and that can be a really poor user experience. We also recognize the same applies to various skills, such as the wizard's Archon ability.
We still want players to feel like they can gear/build their characters differently for solo vs. co-op, of course, and we think there will always be some affixes and skills that are better in one more or the other. But, at the moment, the degree of advantage seems like too much of a swing (I imagine a lot of players would agree). We've been discussing possible solutions for how we can bring LoK/Archon/etc into better balance between the two game types, but haven't settled on the best course of action just yet. This issue is absolutely on our radar, though, and we're certainly open to your feedback in the meantime.


Great that you have also considered archon wizards. What about this: for every killing blow done by teammates, you get 50% of LOK or 50% chance to get 1s archon duration? So these abilities are still better in solo but not completely gimped in co-op.
well, for on kill effects, all mobs should be flagged (have a 5 second buff) once they have been damaged by that person so that if they die within that 5 seconds since the last attack, they get the benefit.

although frankly life on monster death (no matter who kills it) and archon proc on monster death (no matter who kills it) and gruesome feast etc is no way unbalanced anyway.. (eg: you can set this as a per zone effect or 160 yd radius)

agreed. The fix is simple. Make it work off any monster death - not just kills and it still wont be half as valueable as LOH and LOH wont still be half as valueable as LS.
Well I'm not sure about Life on Kill, but maybe for Archon make it so if the enemy dies while you are in Archon form (and it doesn't matter who or what kills it e.g. if your storm armor kills it or a team mate kills it) and it is within a certain radius of you (like say the maximum range of your Archon beam) it will add 1 second to your timer. After all if you read the description of the Archon skill the last sentence says:

Every enemy killed while in Archon form adds 1 seconds to the duration of Archon.

But it doesn't specify that the enemy has to be killed by you or your Archon abilities. ;) Also if you do decide to go this route maybe pickup radius could extend the Archon radius that adds to your timer similar to the witch doctor skills that use pickup radius. :)

Just read the quote in the above post and like the idea of tagging a monster and if it dies within a certain time frame (like 5 seconds) you get the full benefit of Life On Kill.
11/19/2012 06:35 PMPosted by Lylirra
if i dmg a mob but my party member kills him instead, do i get the full percent HP return, a partial return based on dmg done, or no return in HP?


No, you don't receive a return in HP.

On a larger scale, this is something we've been discussing how to improve. We definitely realize the way Life on Kill works right now isn't very co-op friendly. When you're playing with a group of people and sharing your killing blows, the affix just doesn't have as much value as it does in solo games, and that can be a really poor user experience. We also recognize the same applies to various skills, such as the wizard's Archon ability.

We still want players to feel like they can gear/build their characters differently for solo vs. co-op, of course, and we think there will always be some affixes and skills that are better in one more or the other. But, at the moment, the degree of advantage seems like too much of a swing (I imagine a lot of players would agree). We've been discussing possible solutions for how we can bring LoK/Archon/etc into better balance between the two game types, but haven't settled on the best course of action just yet. This issue is absolutely on our radar, though, and we're certainly open to your feedback in the meantime.


How about changing both LoK and archon to proc on crit instead of kills? Change it to Life on Crit and make Archons duration increased one second every crit.
Please consider WD set when applying changes to life on kill as mana on kill isn't party friendly either.
it should be x amount of life per amount of damage dealt.

archon should be the time is extended for every monster killed as well as for every full dealing of 200% damage or something. im sure there is a better way to word it
11/20/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Jibikao
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there are many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)
I've yet to read a solution based on damage output.

I'd suggest damage containers, where LOK is +1000 per kill, but a "kill" could be X damage output, so if the container is 100k, when you reach 100k damage you get a "kill". The container would be based on the average life of the mobs within an area, this would include the MP lvl and Co-op health bonuses. The container could also be affected by the DPS of the chars, so a 50K dps wizard would have a smaller container than a 250k DH. The DH would have to do 5 times as much damage to get a "kill".

This would apply the same for the archon kill count or any other skill that uses kills.

Each skill or effect could be balanced for their own to make sure its fair.

This could also be applicable for single player and would help balance out kill based affixes at higher MP levels.

Just a suggestion :)
please take into consideration sever/lifesteal before you think making "pro-rata" damage allocation as a basis to divvy up the LOK amounts.

its needlessly complex

even if the full LOK health amount is granted by a kill made by someone else for 99.99% damage, LOK is still a pretty useless stat.

---
LOK should simply be changed to "you gain X life if a mob dies within 160yd radius", how it dies is of no matter.

archon proc and gruesome feast should be " you gain x bonus of archon time/reset cd/ if a mob dies within 160yd radius"

although frankly archon and gruesome feast are ridiculous in higher mps, they don't scale well and should be changed. eg: "every attack you make has a chance to restore archon/reset cd, every time you heal, you have a chance to restore archon/reset cd"
11/20/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


Give me a legendary with +500% Thorns Damage (whether it has thorns damage on it is irrelevant), and I'd be happy.
Dunno I've had some nice results with my WD using life on kill. Granted its mostly only useful when you can just really steam roll over the enemies.... but its not that difficult to get 5K LOK which is not bad at all... somewhat comparable to life on hit.. Plus as far as I know there is proc co-efficient etc... it always triggers when you make the kill.
Great thats LoK, how about the LoH and the declining proc rates for DH....I know you all don't want DHs to tank ergo the ridiculously low proc rate for LoH, but im just a guy trying to give himself an advantage over all the other DHs out there (for when PvP FINALLY does drop). Impale is not a good skill (bottom line), and entangling shot is a decent skill but doesen't do near enough damage to be on any DH skill list. So that leaves one skill that is over 100%, that's cinder arrow. You guys have stated in the past that you guys don't want anybody doing thier builds based upon a certain skill set up, if this is true why force us to use one skill to get our full LoH.

Proc rates for DH:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnACdJ2VndUOdFlfbm45V1N2Z3NGVVE4RTRKdmU5aGc&output=html
11/20/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
Please also consider improving Thorn.


Thorns is another affix we feel leaves a lot to be desired -- not just in co-op games, but in solo games too. It's not a bad stat, per se, and there many builds that can benefit from it, but it definitely needs some tuning before it can really be considered competitive. We don't have anything planned for the short term, but for the long term we've considered various improvements and tweaks like allowing thorns to benefit from primary stats, building in additional passive support, as well as having one of the gem bonuses give a boost to that style of damage. (We've also tossed around the idea of adding another affix that's very similar to thorns, but has a much more universal function and would be able to benefit all classes [i.e. ranged + melee damage] without the need for passive skill support.)


Turn Thorn Damage into Reflect Damage.
It's awesome to look at the unloved affixes and make them desirable. Will really add build diversity and make the item search more fun. And nice to see hinting about more gems too!

Thorns would need to be good enough to replace a DPS affix, so it has to add at least as much damage per second as another primary stat roll, increased attack speed, crit chance, etc.

To add as much as those in practice, the nominal damage would have to be more, since you can't use it as effectively as a main skill in most cases. And maybe monster attack speed is lower than the player's and monster attack speed would govern thorn attack speed. And thorns doesn't proc afaik. So it has a lot of downsides as a DPS mechanism - therefore its raw damage per hit value should exceed say getting 100 more primary stat or 9% attack speed.

Shuriken Cloud skill is basically thorns, it already scales with weapon damage, and even procs iirc, and remains not that popular.

A cooler affix might be "death aura": monsters take X% of your DPS, per second, if they are within your pickup radius. Buffs pickup radius too so adds utility to two affixes at once!

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