What is your CM/SNS effective DPS?

Wizard
12/07/2012 02:19 PMPosted by Junger
^ Wouldn't higher CC/APS attribute to casting more shards? And shards is a % of your dps, so even if you add CD, it will increase shards equally to the rest of the attacks?


It should, but I've observed it doesn't simply because the client doesn't respond as fast as it refreshes.

Also, Shocking Aspect is exponential in terms of DPS increase compared to Shards.

Shocking Aspect is based off attacks that crit, WW ticks are exponential in amount. Shards is only 1 attack.

So when you increase CC/APS, it exponentially increasing Shocking Aspect crits, but is only a static increase to Shards.


I get what you are trying to say now. Hence feels like it does less in comparison to the other skills, gotcha.

I also use deep freeze, so after hitting a mob for +15% CC bumping me to 76.5% CC, the shards refreshes SO fast, that mobs literally melt right after the first nova hits.

I think its concensus that people use bone chill for guarenteed 25% damage boost, but I've always favored the CC boost because it refreshes cooldowns faster and regens AP fasters. My preference, I know people will say its silly, but I love it.
True, but the buffer 2:1 EHP gives you might be the different between your LOH recovery time and death.

Also, the main reason I went with CS/GC over DS/Conflag is because on MP8+ reflect mobs, DS will kill you. Almost every pack I faced had RD, so it was actually less damage going with DS since I could never actually use it.

Also, I think the way GC/CS props up the DPS for all CM abilities with high crit dam is more real damage than DS/Conflag.

When I get time this weekend, I'll do Azmo MP9 runs to compare effective DPS.
for solo farming i use deep freeze as well, in group its so rare to have enough mobs to make deep freeze viable so i switch to bone chill
but for farmin tonite im gonnna test out diamond skill crystal shell, and gc instead of evo, to see how it works out
i might see less benefit then the rest of u cause i havent upgraded/play that much over the last 2 weeks and my dps is on the bottom end now (cause i dont notice rd anyways)

I think its concensus that people use bone chill for guarenteed 25% damage boost, but I've always favored the CC boost because it refreshes cooldowns faster and regens AP fasters. My preference, I know people will say its silly, but I love it.


Yeah I love theory crafting. :d

I use Deep Freeze in MP9 farming, but Bone Chill for low MP and ubers.
As said above, I made a simulator to look at these sort of ideas. My simulator is fairly accurate for most abilities, but I think the main difference comes from Shocking Aspect, since I do not have a 100% clear model of that and instead just slapped in an empirical equation that tried to fit some data I collected.

Diamond Shards is actually fairly easy to model, though each person might have slightly different results because of the phantom button presses, or whatever people are calling it now. In other words, those times you press the DS button but nothing happens. I have a built in ReactionTime variable that is meant to model Latency or button pressing speed to some degree, but I haven't looked at how that variable impacts the DS contribution. As a guess I don't think it does and only impacts the effective dps. Also, DS procs are independent of shocking aspect so my model should be good for comparing things like shell vs shards at various gear levels.

My simulator results are showing around 5-15% dps contribution from shards for single target, though it's worth noting that at high gear level the simulator seems to be under approximating the effective dps. If the actual dps is higher, then the relative contribution will be slightly less.
True, but the buffer 2:1 EHP gives you might be the different between your LOH recovery time and death.

Also, the main reason I went with CS/GC over DS/Conflag is because on MP8+ reflect mobs, DS will kill you. Almost every pack I faced had RD, so it was actually less damage going with DS since I could never actually use it.

Also, I think the way GC/CS props up the DPS for all CM abilities with high crit dam is more real damage than DS/Conflag.

When I get time this weekend, I'll do Azmo MP9 runs to compare effective DPS.


I ran into that issue when I first hit about 170k dps with diamond shards.

My friend told me to add some LOH, so I packed on 400 more boosting me to 1400 loh. After that I didn't feel a thing from RD/Electrify, sometimes taking on 2xRD packs @ MP8.

I dropped a bit more LOH recently for my trifecta/LOH ammy, but I'm still looking for that magical 1400 loh number while boosting armor to keep myself alive against RD.

I would STRONGLY suggest LOH additions if your running into issues with RD.
Did some testing...

Setup: SNS - Normal build
119K DPS
53% CC
3.04 IAS
4.7K Armor and 689 AR

MP10 Ghom dead @ 2:50 - My HP globe moved a tiny bit

Setup: Swapped Shards for Crystal and Evoc for GC
137K DPS
53% CC
3.04 IAS
4.2K Armor and 620 AR

MP10 Ghom dead @ 2:30 - My HP globe spiked a bit more.

So, swapping from evocation to glass cannon and shards to crystal shell improved my kill time by 20 seconds.

Worth it?
Depends on what I'm doing in-game I guess.

For farming yes, mitigate it with Safe Passage on harder affixes.

For MP10 Ubers, no.
Did some testing...

Setup: SNS - Normal build
119K DPS
53% CC
3.04 IAS
4.7K Armor and 689 AR

MP10 Ghom dead @ 2:50 - My HP globe moved a tiny bit

Setup: Swapped Shards for Crystal and Evoc for GC
137K DPS
53% CC
3.04 IAS
4.2K Armor and 620 AR

MP10 Ghom dead @ 2:30 - My HP globe spiked a bit more.

So, swapping from evocation to glass cannon and shards to crystal shell improved my kill time by 20 seconds.

Worth it?


It its worth it if is also still improves your squishyness on fights other than ghom which is what I am hoping. I would be happy with even kill time if it meant greater survival. The only concern I have is my initial test went from 118 seconds killing ghom with crystal shell and 95 seconds with shards. I am also running:

i7 990x @ 4.5GHx
12GB RAM at 1800MHz
Crossfire 7970's at 1125MHz/1525MHz
Merc stealth gaming keyboard
Fibre optic internet connection from the cable company....yes fibre to my basement. 50Mb/s down and 4Mb/s up.
Latency is typically mid 95 ish.

My machine and connection is very fast so maybe that accounts for my larger difference.
I think your multipliers with and without shards, 7.7 and 6.2 are in line with holyforks findings. The 7.7 seems a little high, but I don't like Ghom as a test subject unless you do multiple tests and average them. He moves, somtimes a lot, sometimes a little, which greatly skews WW ticks.

So if your concern is that you lose about a 1.5x multi, then don't switch if you're not dying with DS. You will lose eDPS if you take CS over DS.

However, you can increase your DPS with GC, while maintaining an acceptable EHP level with CS.

This is the fun of D3, balancing your gear, damage and skills...well along with farming for shinies.
I think your multipliers with and without shards, 7.7 and 6.2 are in line with holyforks findings. The 7.7 seems a little high, but I don't like Ghom as a test subject unless you do multiple tests and average them. He moves, somtimes a lot, sometimes a little, which greatly skews WW ticks.

So if your concern is that you lose about a 1.5x multi, then don't switch if you're not dying with DS. You will lose eDPS if you take CS over DS.

However, you can increase your DPS with GC, while maintaining an acceptable EHP level with CS.

This is the fun of D3, balancing your gear, damage and skills...well along with farming for shinies.


I felt the same about Ghom testing until someone told me you can corner him. Now I run to a corner and let him follow before starting my testing, and it keeps him in my WW 100% of the time. Otherwise, if Ghom can move during tests, I'm not surprised to see shards having a much higher effective dps since shards should help to keep him in place.
12/07/2012 03:10 PMPosted by Loroese
I felt the same about Ghom testing until someone told me you can corner him.


Nice tip, I think I will like Ghom as a test subject again.
The only issue with cornering Ghom is he tends to spawn 1 set of adds about half the time (I go for the upper left corner). I haven't figured out how to keep him from spawning those, but if the fight is long enough I don't feel like it makes a significant impact on the results.
I think your multipliers with and without shards, 7.7 and 6.2 are in line with holyforks findings. The 7.7 seems a little high, but I don't like Ghom as a test subject unless you do multiple tests and average them. He moves, somtimes a lot, sometimes a little, which greatly skews WW ticks.

So if your concern is that you lose about a 1.5x multi, then don't switch if you're not dying with DS. You will lose eDPS if you take CS over DS.

However, you can increase your DPS with GC, while maintaining an acceptable EHP level with CS.

This is the fun of D3, balancing your gear, damage and skills...well along with farming for shinies.


I not dying on ghom at all. I did kill him once with shards and GC. My concern are the elite packs with reflect+electrified. Azmodan also gets tough when you are standing on top of multiple dark pools. Btw, with 3.05 aps and 58% CC ghom does not move at all. Balancing makes the game fun for sure.
Just did couple runs with shell/GC vs SNS

3x runs each, taken average @ GHO MP10 138m HP

________________________________________

207k DPS
3.09 APS
61.5% CC

SNS - Bone chill, Diamond shards

1m 26s = 1.64m DPS = 7.75x multiplier

_________________________________________

238k DPS
3.09 APS
61.5% CC

SNShell - Crystal Shell, Glass Cannon

1m 30s = 1.53m DPS = 7.41x multiplier

__________________________________________

Yep, shards still king, but I will say that with crystal shell, my health globe barely ticked off full. It was pretty awesome. Even with shards however, my globe was never below 80%.
^I find those numbers slightly misleading, even though they are highly accurate.

The intangable nature of shards is where its major power lies for me. Its 2-3 yards larger radius than explosive blast and provides a huge dps kick to an area as large or only 1y smaller than frost nova.

Personally I think while single target sustained dps for Shell+GC is roughly equavalent to evocation+shards, the AoE dps vs large packs of whites is highly reduced and overall farm time is increased substancially.

Its hard to quantify that however.
I think your multipliers with and without shards, 7.7 and 6.2 are in line with holyforks findings. The 7.7 seems a little high, but I don't like Ghom as a test subject unless you do multiple tests and average them. He moves, somtimes a lot, sometimes a little, which greatly skews WW ticks.

So if your concern is that you lose about a 1.5x multi, then don't switch if you're not dying with DS. You will lose eDPS if you take CS over DS.

However, you can increase your DPS with GC, while maintaining an acceptable EHP level with CS.

This is the fun of D3, balancing your gear, damage and skills...well along with farming for shinies.


I not dying on ghom at all. I did kill him once with shards and GC. My concern are the elite packs with reflect+electrified. Azmodan also gets tough when you are standing on top of multiple dark pools. Btw, with 3.05 aps and 58% CC ghom does not move at all. Balancing makes the game fun for sure.


I agree balancing is fun part hope they dont nerf the reflect for cry babies like they nerfed inferno multiple times. Enrage was cool too kept ppl from just stacking defense and rolling game (eventually) you had to have everything DPS, mitigation and sustain if you wanted to beat early versions of game.

Anyway i hate to be that guy but I told u u wernt doing urself any favors stacking DPS with such low mitigation and sustain. Your gonna need a lot more mitigation and loh to run full SNS all the time spamming in middle of deadiest packs. At 3 the ultimate goal should be run Glass Cannon too because u dont need evo.
12/09/2012 01:55 AMPosted by Aimless
At 3 the ultimate goal should be run Glass Cannon too because u dont need evo.


I need evo
12/09/2012 03:14 AMPosted by Shandlar
At 3 the ultimate goal should be run Glass Cannon too because u dont need evo.


I need evo


Without evo, I notice the difference. Where there used to be no affix spells being cast, I am now noticing the occasional affix spell getting through.

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