[Guide] Comprehensive CMWW Guide

Wizard
Prev 1 2 3 9 Next
One more mention of 2.5 APS breakpoint. Based on my simulator results, for a 60s duration fight, with 45 CC and 20 APoC, I'd only expect to see about 2 white attacks, so the WW spam is pretty complete. More APoC might let me cast EB a couple more times but the multiplier is still 5.68 with bone chill. The simulated multiplier is actually lower for 2.73 but that's another issue entirely, likely due to a bad extrapolation at higher APS.

Increasing to 30 APoC yields about a 7% higher multiplier, reducing white attacks from 2.3 to 0.5, on average, for the 60s fight. To me that's not a very significant change, especially considering that you'd likely have to use a Chanto MH to reach 2.5 APS, so you'd likely need an expensive OH with APoC to match the char sheet dps with a triumvirate+black dagger with IAS. In that case you might as well just pick up a Chanto OH and shoot for the 2.73 breakpoint, imo.
'

Your starting your simulation at 100 AP. That's not a good way to do it. I never start a fight at max AP, and being agressive (max farming speed) requires extremely liberal use of wormhole. That leaves me at around 65 or even 60 AP at the start of each chaining.

I've tried a number of different permutations of this build and APoC and have only had success with APoC numbers VASTLY higher than suggested by most people on the forums.

2.51 APS, 60cc, +7cc to energy twister, 20 APoC = Barely enough, mostly due to lower attack speed so less twisters needing cast.

2.74 APS, 58.5cc, 20 APoC = Not enough, struggling to wormhole much at all
vs
2.74 APS, 57cc, 30 APoC = Plenty, everything runs smooth. Huge farming speed increase.

3.01 APS, 58cc, 20 APoC = My current set up. I feel like I'm cutting it as close to the bone as possible. Going from 57 to 58cc was a noticeable improvement. I'm definitely looking for a 10cc taskers like mine just for that 0.5cc to give myself a bit more cushion in AP recovery.
I want to see some maths. Because IME 20 apoc doesnt even pay for spells that need casting on like 1 target at less than 2.73. You hear "need more arcane power" all the time which means you're missing casting opportunities and survival tanks due to freeze not freezing. Sure you can play CM with crap ias and crap apoc OP but that CM in runes selection only not the way it was meant to be played - spamming. Three sources of apoc alleviates much of the problem. Doesnt solve cooldowns - thats why ias is so good - does both AP recovery and cooldowns.

Anyway i'm just gonna put this out there as minimum specs if you want to play CM wizard

@ 50CC

<2.73 25+ apoc
2.73 20 apoc
3.0 18+ apoc
You make some good points. I haven't put much thought into the use of wormhole and how that impacts farming, mostly because I tend to use fracture to help against electrical and general survivability. Now that I have a better gear set, I should switch to Wormhole and see for myself how it works with farming. I've mostly thought of it from a fight to fight standpoint or against single bosses. It does make sense that extra APoC would be useful when you start fights with half AP gone, so you can only cast 1-2 WW at the start.

On the other hand, you'll usually be facing 3-4 or more mobs when you start your wind up, so the AP regen shouldn't be much of an issue. By the time you're back down to against a single mob, the simulator results should hold, though they still don't account for teleporting during the fight to avoid things, which I do all the time. It definitely sounds like something I should try for myself since theory and practice don't always agree.

When you say not enough APoC, does that mean to teleport after a fight, during a fight, or both? Or can you be any more specific?
Am I right to assume that LoH is better than LS in most CM builds?
12/09/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Aimless
I want to see some maths. Because IME 20 apoc doesnt even pay for spells that need casting on like 1 target at less than 2.73. You hear "need more arcane power" all the time which means you're missing casting opportunities and survival tanks due to freeze not freezing. Sure you can play CM with crap ias and crap apoc OP but that CM in runes selection only not the way it was meant to be played - spamming. Three sources of apoc alleviates much of the problem. Doesnt solve cooldowns - thats why ias is so good - does both AP recovery and cooldowns.


Do you want more of the sim results, like total AP gains, CM procs, etc., or were you looking for something else? Keep in mind the sim results are based on a single target that never moves out of WW, like a cornered Ghom, so against a yellow mob the results might not hold, which I hadn't really considered.
12/09/2012 09:31 PMPosted by DayOldHate
Am I right to assume that LoH is better than LS in most CM builds?


Yes, until you start reaching 100-200k dps, or if you have low APS (below 2.5), LoH >> LS in CM builds. Otherwise I'd have to do some calculations to compare more specific examples.
a pack doesn't matter you can play with 20 apoc and 1.7 ias like old school pre-nerf on a mob. What matters is last elite standing, yellow health elites, bosses etc who will rayp u <2.73 and with like 18 apoc.
yes loh>ls since it depends on the twister ticks and your natural dps is normally lower then a similar budget archorn
a pack doesn't matter you can play with 20 apoc and 1.7 ias like old school pre-nerf on a mob. What matters is last elite standing, yellow health elites, bosses etc who will rayp u <2.73 and with like 18 apoc.


Well, when I first threw together a CM set, post 1.0.5, I had like 1.7 APS, 890 LoH, 17 APoC, 40% crit, and like 300-400k EHP and I was able to finish off the last elite just fine with Crystal Shell in MP6-7. I even solod the uber bosses on MP5 before they nerfed their damage output (which is equivalent to MP7 now). That's why I say the build can work with low APS. Is it ideal? No. Does the build work better with more IAS/APoC? Definitely, but that's not the point when first gearing up, the point is to see how the build works, get some experience against various affixes, and see if you want to continue with the build or try something else.

To me, a functioning build does the following:
Possible to kill elite groups
Possible to Kill single elites
Few to no deaths in a farm run
Capable of freezing mobs to some degree

I think that's where the main difference of opinion lies. I don't feel that people need to completely optimize every part of the build in terms of stats and runes in order to try it out. Once they start spending 10s of millions of gold, then I'm with you that they should be pushing for higher APS and if needed, more APoC until the top APS are reached, or they can decide from their experience if they're fine with only 2 APoC pieces. It also gets a little more complicated when you start trying to decide between 2 or 3 APoC pieces because with 2 APoC you can probably get higher char sheet dps to make up for the loss of AP returns to some degree, or possibly to result in higher effective dps, at least at lower budget levels.

Meanwhile, when I have some spare time I'll look at MP7-8 key farming with 20 vs 30 APoC and 2.5 APS and see if I can see much difference. I can probably try 2.73 APS also, I'll just lose a little EHP from the gear swap to Lacuni.
The train of thought currently is the eventual goal should be to switch to a 1.635+ attack speed black dagger with 3.00 LS, CD, and Socket for end game.

Frostburn does it this way and uses GC to get clear to 490k dps. I think he's misleading though and his vids are all cherrypicked to avoid RD (they are in Korean so I have no idea).

3% lifesteal isn't enough to counter RD alone unless your 94% total mitigation. That's impossible to acheive without prismatic armour so even with LS you need some LoH as well. Since your black weapon is a dagger though you need APoC on helm.

I've done a TON of theorycrafting on the matter and I dont see any way to make it work, not without using retardedly epic end game items (trifecta Tals amulet, Trifecta Zuni Pox) and even then you'd be hard pressed.

For example, even an 11% IAS dagger requires 64% IAS from gear for 2.728 breakpoint. You have no choice but to use a 6cc Stormcrow for APoC (but the 8% lightning is strong with a black weapon so its cool), but that means you still need 8 pieces of IAS gear.

Chest
Belt
Bracers
Amulet
Ring
Ring
Gloves

Is only 7... Meaning you have to use a Chants source still (which destroys half the advantage of a black MH cause no triumverate) or you have to use Inna's Pants (which annihilates your mitigation and costs you the LoH from BT pants)

So you use innas and a 10 APoC triumverate. That without nats means your max at 58.5cc at the 2.73 breakpoint. That's OK but nothing spectacular for AP returns. I personally think its low as hell, especially for insanely epic end game items.
The train of thought currently is the eventual goal should be to switch to a 1.635+ attack speed black dagger with 3.00 LS, CD, and Socket for end game.

Frostburn does it this way and uses GC to get clear to 490k dps. I think he's misleading though and his vids are all cherrypicked to avoid RD (they are in Korean so I have no idea).

3% lifesteal isn't enough to counter RD alone unless your 94% total mitigation. That's impossible to acheive without prismatic armour so even with LS you need some LoH as well. Since your black weapon is a dagger though you need APoC on helm.

I've done a TON of theorycrafting on the matter and I dont see any way to make it work, not without using retardedly epic end game items (trifecta Tals amulet, Trifecta Zuni Pox) and even then you'd be hard pressed.

For example, even an 11% IAS dagger requires 64% IAS from gear for 2.728 breakpoint. You have no choice but to use a 6cc Stormcrow for APoC (but the 8% lightning is strong with a black weapon so its cool), but that means you still need 8 pieces of IAS gear.

Chest
Belt
Bracers
Amulet
Ring
Ring
Gloves

Is only 7... Meaning you have to use a Chants source still (which destroys half the advantage of a black MH cause no triumverate) or you have to use Inna's Pants (which annihilates your mitigation and costs you the LoH from BT pants)

So you use innas and a 10 APoC triumverate. That without nats means your max at 58.5cc at the 2.73 breakpoint. That's OK but nothing spectacular for AP returns. I personally think its low as hell, especially for insanely epic end game items.


Interesting. I really wish Shocking Aspect behaved properly so I could get some good sim results to compare the different configurations. I also wish I had more time to see if I can figure out just how it works with WW. So many things I want to do but so little time.

If money isn't an issue I can see how you can make Inna's pants work, it just requires a ton of EHP on everything else, including rings and amulet. On the bright side, you'd get LoH from the SC which makes up for the LoH from loss of pants. I imagine he also uses Zuni boots for even more DPS. In short he's basically an Archon geared wiz in CMWW spec, it seems.

I can actually see it working, but it comes back to the 2.5 vs 2.73 breakpoint discussion. If you try to stick with the 2.5 breakpoint it makes it a lot easier to gear around and you can keep the Triumvirate. That's basically the gear set I had before I switched to 2.73 with Chanto's set, though my dps was lower, obviously, and I didn't have LS on the dagger.

I'm starting to see why you can spend a lot of time theorycrating around the idea.
I guess its just cause I dont consider it possible to run 2.51 break at 20 APoC. I consider it impossible without the use of at least one piece of +cc to twister.

I guess maybe if you used a 6cc + 6cc to ET skullgrasp. But thats not the strongest DPS piece ever so that doesn't really get you much.

58.5cc is the max possible using triumverate and innas pants without Nats. At 58.5 and 20 APoC, 2.501 breakpoint is not viable. You do not recover enough AP. You can use scoundrel to boost yourself to 61.5cc and its still not going to be enough.
a pack doesn't matter you can play with 20 apoc and 1.7 ias like old school pre-nerf on a mob. What matters is last elite standing, yellow health elites, bosses etc who will rayp u <2.73 and with like 18 apoc.


Well, when I first threw together a CM set, post 1.0.5, I had like 1.7 APS, 890 LoH, 17 APoC, 40% crit, and like 300-400k EHP and I was able to finish off the last elite just fine with Crystal Shell in MP6-7. I even solod the uber bosses on MP5 before they nerfed their damage output (which is equivalent to MP7 now). That's why I say the build can work with low APS. Is it ideal? No. Does the build work better with more IAS/APoC? Definitely, but that's not the point when first gearing up, the point is to see how the build works, get some experience against various affixes, and see if you want to continue with the build or try something else.

To me, a functioning build does the following:
Possible to kill elite groups
Possible to Kill single elites
Few to no deaths in a farm run
Capable of freezing mobs to some degree

I think that's where the main difference of opinion lies. I don't feel that people need to completely optimize every part of the build in terms of stats and runes in order to try it out. Once they start spending 10s of millions of gold, then I'm with you that they should be pushing for higher APS and if needed, more APoC until the top APS are reached, or they can decide from their experience if they're fine with only 2 APoC pieces. It also gets a little more complicated when you start trying to decide between 2 or 3 APoC pieces because with 2 APoC you can probably get higher char sheet dps to make up for the loss of AP returns to some degree, or possibly to result in higher effective dps, at least at lower budget levels.

Meanwhile, when I have some spare time I'll look at MP7-8 key farming with 20 vs 30 APoC and 2.5 APS and see if I can see much difference. I can probably try 2.73 APS also, I'll just lose a little EHP from the gear swap to Lacuni.


You will. The build is night and day @2.5 w/ 3 sources and cheap to get 3 sources of apoc so I think it's only way to fly. Even 2.73 with 20 APOC is dicey and well bottoms out more than it should but doable and not failing to cast spells, unless you make mistakes like errant twisters or target moves, then you're screwed ("need more arcane power").. When I use my apoc source for 29 apoc, AP well stay completely full on single.

58.5cc is the max possible using triumverate and innas pants without Nats. At 58.5 and 20 APoC, 2.501 breakpoint is not viable. You do not recover enough AP. You can use scoundrel to boost yourself to 61.5cc and its still not going to be enough.


There's the part I'm disagreeing with, and maybe it's just nitpicking, but I try to differentiate between "viable" and "optimal". I'm inclined to agree it's not optimal, but I 100% feel 2.51 APS is perfectly viable for the build, even with 20 APoC and 45% CC.

Again, to me being viable means you can survive against all affixes reasonably well, you can stay alive solo against yellow elites and bosses, you can keep the mobs frozen to some degree while spamming a rotation, and you rarely die on farm runs aside from mostly avoidable deaths like not moving from an arcane sentry (or when one spawns on your face and you can't see it through your WWs). I can do all that at 2.5 APS and 20 APoC. I could do that with 1.7 APS, 17 APoC, and 39 CC, though not as easily. Granted, I needed a bit more EHP with the lower APS than the higher APS because the stunlock isn't as good, but I still feel the build is viable. It's far from optimal at those levels, of course.

I've done a TON of theorycrafting on the matter and I dont see any way to make it work, not without using retardedly epic end game items (trifecta Tals amulet, Trifecta Zuni Pox) and even then you'd be hard pressed..

The lack of a trifecta Tals amulet or chat source keeps me in the 2.5 breakpoint when i run WW.

Meaning you have to use a Chants source still (which destroys half the advantage of a black MH cause no triumverate) or you have to use Inna's Pants (which annihilates your mitigation and costs you the LoH from BT pants)

Yes to hit 2.7 you need either inna or chant source. The loh from BT is offset by the LS from dagger. If you go armor/ar BT then your trading like 400 armor + 200 vit for 9 ASI

Even with a black weapon my oculus gives me more sheet dps verse elites AND more HP!.. compared to the best chantodo or triumvirate on the ah for CM at this time.

http://s17.postimage.org/5r69k9fsv/sourcecomp.png

With a oculus I can use none black weapons too and not suffer dps loss. (slorak's madness)
I can also taxi faster with teleport reduction. (efficient end game farming routes)

The 150 int / 150 vit affix is a game changer. Triumvirate and Chantodo have to consume the affix to get APOC. While an Archon enjoys the highest dps with a triumvirate that rolled a 150 int affix.

For CM: Chantodo > Triumvirate because of the 1.5 crit, higher avg dmg and asi Diminishing returns from % elemental bc of storm crow / tals ammy / (for others zun boots). Even frost burns used a chant.

If you go Chantodo source you might as well go for the wand to get the set bonus. So a dagger has to be very nice to beat a wand and set bonus.

Here is unleashed/slorak's madness. (When i had the wand it was a +15k sheet upgrade not counting the cm from the additional wicked wind ticks). (I had -300 physical resistance back then)
CM at 19APOC, 2.36 APS, 53 crit, +8% WW crit from slorak's madness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8Cd_wpMmic&feature=plcp

Wicked wind is a net arcane generator, Explosive blast is a arcane sink. When you are at 2.5 break point all you got to do is put down 2 wicked wind before you do chain reaction. However the procs from nova and EB wont generate enough to let you hit chain reaction all the time verse single target but they will against multi target. So on ubers you have to go unleashed else you will need to wait for full arcane bubble before hitting chain reaction. This is to avoid doing default attacks. Lower APS(2.3) same thing but with unleashed. It is just like how people doing meteor put down a few wicked wind's before casting meteor. They don't open with meteor. Against single target don't spam EB till you got a few wicked winds down on it and you are doing a nova shortly. Its all micro.. I think the issue is people are binding 1 key to push down 3 keys and thus they need a 1 wicked win cast arcane generation spin up; they can't manage arcane.
No no you're correct the intent of my statement was 'optimal' not viable. Thats more than semantics nickpicking.

Maybe its just cause I gear up in this game so much differently than others. The moment 1.04 came out and we got all these new gears I opened up a calculator and a fleshed out my ideal wizard. For every slot I picked the 'ideal' random affixes I would want on those items, added it all up to an end result, and decided if at 'end game' that was good enough.

That was before I bought a single piece of gear. Then I waited until I could buy and item that met a certain minimum for the rolls. I then just methodically went from one slot to the next waiting until I had to funds for the next BiS item that rolled all the right random affixes well and bought it. It took all that time, but I now have that wizard I planned out at that point.

Since I look at gearing that way, 'optimal' and 'viable' are pretty much the same thing. If 100% perfect items rolled in that manner is not optimal, then its not a viable option to gear in that direction.
I am going to bed but 1 random thought is 10APOC 2.7273APS wicked wind, nova, unleashed, shards viable/stable??? If so then you can use life steal black dagger with mempho.
^No. You'd need 78% crit chance just to have twisters break even against 1 target. You need them to run a surplus.
i've trying this build after having some trouble at the inf. machine.
tryed getting used to it, but noticed that the WW does *NOT* cause crits, rendering the build useless.
is it just me? am i doing something wrong? i have around 1.9 APS (Chant. set, 10 total APoC), with nearly 38% CC.


WW does crit, it just doesn't display crits. The way WW works is it does a certain number of damage/LoH tics every second. Each half second, the total damage done over the last half second is displayed, which might include some tics that crit. However, since the displayed damage is the total of damage done over a period of time, it always displays the numbers as white number, instead of some yellow for crits.

In short, WW does crit, otherwise no one would be using this build.

As for you having problems with the build, you have 10 APoC, that's one major problem. If you don't have any LoH, that's another. Try reading the guide.


i did read it. twice. i just didn't want to dedicate and spend over 10M on a build without feeling it, and was surprised that the storm armor did crits every second bolt, while WW did not. not i'm going to take this build then next level.
Thanks a lot for the clarifications! :)
@OP

A glossary of terms at the start would be useful.

If it is truly a beginners guide, don't jump into acronyms and contractions straight away until you have defined them. When I see CD for example, I'm thinking Critical Hit Damage, not Cool Downs. I worked it out obviously, but if its a guide for people who don't know, then they are not likely to work it out without some sort of up front explanation to begin with.

Otherwise a very good guide.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum