Gearing Philosophies

Monk
I am posting to keep track of this thread.


How does posting in this thread help you keep track of it? Serious question.


Because then I can click my name up top, hit View My Posts and it gives me a list of all the threads I have posted in. I sometimes forget about a thread I was interested in, so this helps me keep track :)
OK, so - what do you guys think is a reasonable budget per DPS? I'll start by what my experience has been, but I am looking for all to chime in. This is assuming proper buying practice (bids), that the buyer is in no rush, but also that we are maintaining 600AR/5K armor/40K life/2.X LS/800ish LOH.

50-60K DPS : 7-8 mil (this includes the price of two star emeralds, and skip LS at this price point/DPS)

70-80K DPS : 30-40 mil

100K DPS : 60-100 mil. I know this is a wildly varying estimate, but I've really seen that much variation. =) In any case, it probably would be exceedingly difficult (or looong!) to consistently reach 100K DPS with like 60 mil. One would have to be very lucky to repeat that.

80K DPS and up with the above stats should be able to handle MP7, MP8 if well played with Hard Target.

Thoughts?
Jesus a lot of long posts in here....

a budget note on weapons - the high dps weapons are not the only way to achieve nice dps... lower dps weapons (800+ dps) with high dex/crit/open socket are generally not that expensive and the added dex really helps your dps as well as giving you some armor (assuming sti is in a passive slot). I also prefer one pure DPS weapon, and one weapon for sustain.

another note on weapons, my personal opinion is that attack speed is a wasted stat on weapons. Heres why:

the obvious goal for a weapon is to maximize your DPS out of it while maintaining some sort of a sustain stat. In most cases just one sustain stat (life steal) will do.

in that case you want the following rolls:

1. +min, +max damage (varies per weapon)
2. +damage% (up to 50%)
3. Open Socket
4. Life steal
5. Crit damage (up to 100%)
6. Dexterity (up to 200)

you want dexterity because it will give you a higher end DPS than attack speed will. and will also provide dodge and armor (provided you are using STI)

If you are going for a pure DPS weapon you would replace the life steal with a +150dex/150vit (max values) roll.

If you want higher attack speed then save the stat roll and get a higher attacking weapon.

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in my opinion, the armor slots you can gain the most DPS out of are as follows, in order from highest dps possibility to lowest:

amulet, gloves, rings, helm, bracers, belt, chest, pants, boots, shoulders.

if you are going to skip EHP stats on any equipment it should be ones at the start of that list. You can then make up that EHP loss on the lower DPS items at a smaller cost to your potential DPS.

Personally I would rather stack all res on my gear than relying on OWE. There are several reasons for my opinion on this... some are very known, such as freeing up a passive slot for a different useful passive or covering yourself in case of some nerf that may or may not ever happen.

A different reason i like to gear towards all resistances that is less thought of is the fact that going for dual res gear takes up extra stat rolls on your gear that could be used elsewhere giving you added gear flexibility. ALL res rolls up to 80 on each piece of gear. single res only rolls to 60. it is far more efficient to stack 70-80 all res on 8 pieces of gear for 600+ all res than stacking 55+ single res or dual resistances on 10+ gear pieces to get the same effect. of course high all res gear usually comes with a slightly higher price tag so it really isnt an option for lower budget builds.

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another thing on the topic of searching for average damage, someone stated that they search for 35 average damage on the AH. I would like to state that searching for 37 is the only way to eliminate MIN damage rolls until that AH bug is fixed. +36 is the max roll for any minimum damage stat on items. that includes items with xx-xx affixes. you will never see one with a higher min damage roll than 36.

Anyways, there are some thoughts i have about gearing... as the preferred stats are pretty well known, that is more part of my philosophizing/theory-crafting approach to gearing. done babbling now. i need sleep.
This thread is an excellent read regarding different build philosophies. It's a bit like an abridged compilation of the larger gearing threads. : )
01/16/2013 04:00 PMPosted by scrapz
I think the reason most of us don't respond to every thread is because we've probably said it over a 100 times.

This is the reason I don't post offering gearing suggestions as much anymore. The best thing to do is just point people to Kamel's thread which has links for all the guides you mentioned in the OP.

As far as your gearing suggestions, I'm one of the people not really sold on Unity. Sure it can potentially be a good ring, but for almost everybody in an endgame situation (unless you're using 2-3 of Favor, Zuni boots, and WKL) Wailing Host IS better simply because 50 CD offers more dps than 66 AD and the rest of the stats are EXACTLY the same. Reason #2 is that I (and quite a few other people I know) value 7 elite DR much more than 4% damage to elites. That being that Litany has more value than Unity as well. I WOULD probably use Unity over rares, but it would probably be my 4th choice after Reflection, Litany, and Wailing Host.

The 2nd biggest controversy gearing wise I think is Inna's vs. BT's pants. One offers superior dps and good ehp while the other offers sustain, decent dps, and incredible ehp. Defense vs. offense basically. I think the closer we get to seeing pvp the more defense will be desired so it might eventually become necessary to have a pair of both, unfortunately.

The same argument of defense vs. offense holds true with boots as well. The two OBVIOUS choices are Bloody Footprints and Ice Climbers. Set bonus aside, its pretty clear that the latter are better. But bring in the 2pc Nat's bonus and its a completely different argument. The fact that Nat's also has melee DR is a GREAT added bonus.

The slot with the most options is definitely chest. Here you can easily pick and choose yours depending on exactly what you need. Need dps? Get Tal's. Need a good defensive balance of ehp and mitigation? Get IK's and a pair of gloves with any combination of dex, dex/vit, cd, or ias for the 2pc bonus. Need ehp and Inna's 2pc? Get Vast Expanse. Despite the most choices, its pretty easy to make decisions here depending on what you need, since the options vary so clearly and obviously.

The last argument is Radiance vs. Mempo. But this time the difference is much less. If you factor in Inna's 2pc bonus the difference of 65 dex (half the value of the bonus) vs. 9 ias obviously IS relevant, but the question is is it worth the tradeoff in ehp? The difference there in 200 vit vs. 12% life is VERY big. Of course, the stat roll ranges are MUCH higher and more random in Inna's case which means it could definitely be MUCH harder finding one thats that good (to the point of being worth the dps tradeoff).

The weapons slots are much more flexible. The only important thing there is knowing how to evaluate the difference between pdps and edps when it comes to looking at upgrades so you don't waste your money. And of course which stats you are looking for depend on whether you're using dual wielding, s&b, or a 2 hander.
Hey guys, just thought I'd chime in to show my monk as a budget example. I built her for about 45ish mil (I'd have to look it up to see exactly), and it's been a lot of fun so far. Resists are 750, I could tell more specifics if anyone's interested or has questions (it's really late right now xD). Awesome thread!
01/18/2013 12:09 AMPosted by Vulindlela
Hey guys, just thought I'd chime in to show my monk as a budget example. I built her for about 45ish mil (I'd have to look it up to see exactly), and it's been a lot of fun so far. Resists are 750, I could tell more specifics if anyone's interested or has questions (it's really late right now xD). Awesome thread!


You certainly did good with that budget IMO. Now the next challenge is to improve DPS without losing that EHP and sustain!
As far as your gearing suggestions, I'm one of the people not really sold on Unity. Sure it can potentially be a good ring, but for almost everybody in an endgame situation (unless you're using 2-3 of Favor, Zuni boots, and WKL) Wailing Host IS better simply because 50 CD offers more dps than 66 AD and the rest of the stats are EXACTLY the same. Reason #2 is that I (and quite a few other people I know) value 7 elite DR much more than 4% damage to elites. That being that Litany has more value than Unity as well. I WOULD probably use Unity over rares, but it would probably be my 4th choice after Reflection, Litany, and Wailing Host.


Lots of good info in your post above, thank you. I especially like the bit about avg dmg 37, never knew that (always had to wade through a couple that weren't what I was looking for, never knew why).

With regards to the quoted passage above : I agree that in terms of ultimate DPS, 50 CD will outdo 66 AD. That part is irrefutable. But the key word in your paragraph above was "end game". =) For most average monks who are nowhere near there, I do still believe the Unity offers up a far more compelling option, both DPS- and sustain-wise. And in any case, most 200K+ DPS monks that I know of aren't using either of those rings anyways. But that's just me - and that's exactly why I created this thread. =) Hopefully people can look at all the info and make their own decisions.
OK, so - what do you guys think is a reasonable budget per DPS? I'll start by what my experience has been, but I am looking for all to chime in. This is assuming proper buying practice (bids), that the buyer is in no rush, but also that we are maintaining 600AR/5K armor/40K life/2.X LS/800ish LOH.

50-60K DPS : 7-8 mil (this includes the price of two star emeralds, and skip LS at this price point/DPS)

70-80K DPS : 30-40 mil

100K DPS : 60-100 mil. I know this is a wildly varying estimate, but I've really seen that much variation. =) In any case, it probably would be exceedingly difficult (or looong!) to consistently reach 100K DPS with like 60 mil. One would have to be very lucky to repeat that.

80K DPS and up with the above stats should be able to handle MP7, MP8 if well played with Hard Target.

Thoughts?

If you look on Piffle's thread, I think he's been able to achieve 90K-100K dps with those stats (less LoH, which is not really required IMO -- I haven't had LoH on gear since around 80K but I do have alternate forms of secondary sustain which are cheaper like LpSS, health globe bonus, etc) for under 20M. I think Scrapz was able to get to 50K-60K dps with well under 5M, maybe even 2M-3M. Again, all with balanced stats. I think I hit 100K dps (at plvl 20 or so) with under 50M back in the day. Oh, and this is NOT factoring in costs of gems (star gems in armor and perfect star emeralds in weapons).

Also, if you are undergeared in terms of armor, and well-geared in terms of resistances, I think that MoH/ToN will do better for EHP than MoE/HT (unless you use TGP passive, which gives you extra dodge and may give any MoE rune pause for thought, especially Backlash). I think there has been a recent debate about this in another thread - worth looking for. But definitely use d3up.com to see the difference.

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As for Tarzan's comments about gearing out of OWE. I think he does have a point -- it would be my preference too if I weren't on a tight budget. And AR gear on all EHP gear are reasonably priced. But once you start venturing into DPS pieces (jewellery & gloves), it can get expensive if you want to maintain good DPS.
01/18/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Silver32
But the key word in your paragraph above was "end game"

By that I meant if you are looking at getting either ring with either of the stats I mentioned. In other words, if you can afford either. Of course, you should run it through a calculator or spreadsheet first, but more often than not (across varying gear qualities) Wailing Host WILL be better than Unity in terms of dps. The one thing Unity has in it's favor is that LOH is generally better than LR.

I also just noticed upon double checking, that my assumption when I was doing my priority list thread that Unity's AD had a max roll of 66 like rare rings was incorrect. It's page actually shows it's range as (22-34)-(44-68) which means it can only reach 51 which makes it even more inferior dps wise to Wailing Host that I originally thought.
i must have a weird gearing philosophy Y_Y however it does work for me and my idea as to how i want to play my monk ^_^ anyways, cheers to this thread (most information are a bit repetitive but the discussions are still a good read)
01/18/2013 04:28 AMPosted by Kythe
i must have a weird gearing philosophy Y_Y however it does work for me and my idea as to how i want to play my monk ^_^ anyways, cheers to this thread (most information are a bit repetitive but the discussions are still a good read)

Thats pretty sweet using 3pc Zuni to drop OWE. I bet your character looks awesome in the white from it mixed with the black of Mempo and Jousting. Don't suppose you have any screenshots of her?
OK, so - what do you guys think is a reasonable budget per DPS? I'll start by what my experience has been, but I am looking for all to chime in. This is assuming proper buying practice (bids), that the buyer is in no rush, but also that we are maintaining 600AR/5K armor/40K life/2.X LS/800ish LOH.

50-60K DPS : 7-8 mil (this includes the price of two star emeralds, and skip LS at this price point/DPS)

70-80K DPS : 30-40 mil

100K DPS : 60-100 mil. I know this is a wildly varying estimate, but I've really seen that much variation. =) In any case, it probably would be exceedingly difficult (or looong!) to consistently reach 100K DPS with like 60 mil. One would have to be very lucky to repeat that.

80K DPS and up with the above stats should be able to handle MP7, MP8 if well played with Hard Target.

Thoughts?


I've put about 50-60m in my gears, have never had more than 20 million gold at a time and i was able to break the 100k barrier. Right now my DPS is at 92k because i sacrificed some in order to get lifesteal + LpSS on my main-hand weapon. It was worth the sacrifice since my sustain (2.2 LS + 230 LpSS) is pretty !@#$ing amazing right now.

The only problem i have with being on such a low budget all the time is that i cant afford to buy the last tier of gems (and now with Marquises...). I would probably be at 100k DPS unbuffed (or close to it) if i just managed to upgrade all my emeralds.

ABOUT THE RING DEBATE : I too, like Shade, went for both DPS and EHP on my rings and amulet (although i went Avg + CC + CD instead of Avg. + CC + IAS). One of my two rare rings is a trifecta with pretty good EHP and just like he said, it was hell to find one like that. I dont think that the smart thing to do is focus solely on offensive stats when it comes to jewels. At most, offensive stats will take 4 spots (trifecta + DEX) on your jewel wich still leaves 2 slots for Vit and AR (or armor). There's simply no reason (besides the price tag) NOT to go for these stats.
01/18/2013 04:39 AMPosted by gotaplanstan
i must have a weird gearing philosophy Y_Y however it does work for me and my idea as to how i want to play my monk ^_^ anyways, cheers to this thread (most information are a bit repetitive but the discussions are still a good read)

Thats pretty sweet using 3pc Zuni to drop OWE. I bet your character looks awesome in the white from it mixed with the black of Mempo and Jousting. Don't suppose you have any screenshots of her?


http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Rafferti/Screenshot016_zps2508492a.jpg

here you go
01/18/2013 05:39 AMPosted by Kythe

Thats pretty sweet using 3pc Zuni to drop OWE. I bet your character looks awesome in the white from it mixed with the black of Mempo and Jousting. Don't suppose you have any screenshots of her?


http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Rafferti/Screenshot016_zps2508492a.jpg

here you go


God, I still prefer the Inna's set look over that...


http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m605/Rafferti/Screenshot016_zps2508492a.jpg

here you go


God, I still prefer the Inna's set look over that...


His game's obviously on low settings, i could climb up that much aliasing.
oh yeah it's on low setting ^_^ was using a laptop when i took that pic (even the weapon is not updated, im using a sword lately). It's like the white counterpart when you sport blackthornes chest and pants (almost same look but obviously black instead). Looks sick though when you carry an oni blade ^_^
OK, so - what do you guys think is a reasonable budget per DPS? I'll start by what my experience has been, but I am looking for all to chime in. This is assuming proper buying practice (bids), that the buyer is in no rush, but also that we are maintaining 600AR/5K armor/40K life/2.X LS/800ish LOH.

50-60K DPS : 7-8 mil (this includes the price of two star emeralds, and skip LS at this price point/DPS)

70-80K DPS : 30-40 mil

100K DPS : 60-100 mil. I know this is a wildly varying estimate, but I've really seen that much variation. =) In any case, it probably would be exceedingly difficult (or looong!) to consistently reach 100K DPS with like 60 mil. One would have to be very lucky to repeat that.

80K DPS and up with the above stats should be able to handle MP7, MP8 if well played with Hard Target.

Thoughts?

Again, it's hard to answer this question because there are a couple of variables that you left out:

1) What paragon level are we talking about?
2) What type of gems are we using?

Some people might be using their own paragon level as a baseline while others are simply using paragon level 0 as the baseline when discussing gear.

In terms of gems, I've always excluded them from the price of the gear. The reason for this is twofold:

1) While you will eventually replace your gear, you won't replace your gems. You will simply use your current gems to upgrade to better gems.
2) When you replace your gear, there's a pretty good chance that it won't be worth what you spent on it when you first bought it. However, this is not the case with gems due to the combine cost being the biggest factor in their price. Outside of exploits, gems do not depreciate.

Using paragon level 0 as a baseline, 46 dex gems in the armor and 90% cd gems in the weapons (before 1.07 patch notes came out, this worked out to around 16 million on gems), I went through the AH and put together a set that had 403k EH (without gem in hat), 83k dps, 2.8% LS, and MS on boots for around 25 million. This was actually much more expensive than it used to be - for some reason, the price of set pieces has really gone up. I used to be able to grab 9% as, 40+ resist Inna pants for under 3 million ... now the cheapest buyout is almost 5 and that's for 8% as and 30 resist.

Oh, and for the sake of this exercise, I simply picked a resist at random and then only used items that were available for buyout. Which means I ended up spending 4 million on a belt (LOL!?) that I wouldn't have spent more than a million for normally ... and 7 million on pants that I still think I could get for half of that through bidding ... and the available amulets sucked. But I spent about 15 minutes doing it, so that's what we ended up with! :P

To the point about paragon level, the difference between paragon level 0 and Silver's pLvl (25) is 2700 dmg and 26k EH ... and the difference between 0 and my pLvl (66) is 7k damage and 64k EH.

When I was making sets to sell, they were ending up at probably around 350-400k EH (not including gem in hat), 90k dps, with one lifesteal weapon ... and costing around 12-14 million to put together. And these were sets that I was putting together mostly over the span of a day, mostly using buyouts, occasionally bidding. Dunno how cheaply you could do it now if you actually waited on good buys.
AH prices have increased ever since the latest patch, I suspect it is the latest patch bringing back demand and driving prices up.

That said, I just managed to pick up my CC Nats ring for 220M, with even higher avg damage and resist! There are still bargains to be made, but the prices of "standard" set pieces/legs with limited rolls seem to have gone up in general.
01/18/2013 07:03 AMPosted by Shade
AH prices have increased ever since the latest patch, I suspect it is the latest patch bringing back demand and driving prices up.


Have TOTALLY seen that. I picked up my own Inna's helm for 200K - now, I can't seem to get one for under 1 mil, even with bids! Buyouts are like 1.5-2 mil for those these days.

Again, it's hard to answer this question because there are a couple of variables that you left out:

1) What paragon level are we talking about?
2) What type of gems are we using?


You are correct, that was an omission on my part. When I build a set, I usually don't include the price of gems because I'm assuming most people at a reasonable paragon lvl (say, 10-20) will have at least 2 star emeralds, and a few flawless squares lying around to populate the chest/pants. I DO include their price in the starter sets because I assume most new lvl 60's do not have a ready supply of gems, and if they do, they're hell-grade and below.

I also use Nameless' spreadsheet when building a set, and I always reset the paragon level counter to 0, to assume worst case.

All of the above being said - I'm currently finishing up a set that will be a shade over 81K DPS, for looks like what will be about 30 mil. However, as opposed to Piffle, I do put a premium on attack speed, and also insist on a combination of LOH and LS. I'm still waiting for a couple of items on bid to end, but once they do (assuming I win), I'll make a compiled photo list of the items and the prices I paid, so you guys can tear it apart. =)

And Piffle - I know it's some work, but I know I, and I'm sure a slew of others, would appreciate it if you could (once again!) show us the set pieces you used? Much appreciated.

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