Monk Skill Mechanics, Main v Offhand, CC/CD

Monk
02/26/2013 08:25 AMPosted by Davlok
Ps - before you click submit in any post ALWAYS ALWAYS ctrl-a ctrl-c incase you get logged out/dropped connection/etc. should be standard procedure for the forum vets.

This. So much this.

Anyway, I'll check the APS thing and its interaction with Cyclone in a few hours.
Well, this is effed up. Here's what I found:

  • When I log into the game, my MH weapon is active. When I take my first swing, I deliver MH damage, but my APS doesn't update for that first swing. (It doesn't do it if I swing in town, either.) This means that my MH APS is on display, but my OH weapon is readied.
  • If I summon Mystic Ally at the start of the game, he delivers damage based on the weapon whose APS is not showing on my character sheet. This doesn't change, no matter how often I dismiss him and summon him again.

So, at some point after I take my first swing, my APS will show my OH figure. My next attack will be with my MH weapon, but my ally's next attack will be based on my OH weapon.

I'm almost certain it wasn't working this way in 1.0.6. I've tested with two weapons before, and it seems like it would have been easy to spot. But maybe I'm just getting old :) I've found posts from pre-1.0.7 indicating that it shows the weapon that you attacked last with. I've also found posts that claim that swapping your OH weapon resets your active weapon to MH, which isn't true if this behavior was in effect back then.

Anyway! Wave of Light is apparently still wonky. I can also cause the "double one attack" bug if I am armed with my usual (legendary) weapons. If my OH APS is on display, and I attack with WoL, my next TOC attack fails to toggle the APS, after which it toggles normally. In other words, with a 1.79 APS weapon in my OH and a 1.99 APS weapon in my MH, I see this:

1. Activate WoL; APS changes to 1.99.
2. Attack with TC; APS stays at 1.99.
3. Attack with TC; APS switches to 1.79 and begins alternating with each attack.

Here's the dumb thing: if I arm a white weapon, this behavior goes away.
Also: I saved the previous post with the old "copy everything in case you lose it" trick :)

In other news, I think I see what's happening now: your sheet APS is showing whatever weapon you last attacked with. When you start a new game, however, the sheet has to show something, even though you haven't attacked yet. It defaults to your MH weapon, and Mystic Ally will begin doing MH damage and then continue doing MH damage after your first attack, at which point it will begin swinging according to whatever weapon you last attacked with.

Cyclone is behaving the same way: whichever weapon you last attacked with, that's the weapon it's basing its damage on. So I guess we . . . just need to redefine "active weapon"?
Oh lord, this post has turned into strait up sexy numbers talk while I wasn't paying attention!

I am going to get some testing on when I get home I think!

I will be streaming it so people can actually see my results if you have any interest.

One thing struck me as EXTREMELY coincidental:
Something else for your first post: Exploding Palm always uses an average damage figure, not a normal range. In other words, when I have my Fist of Legend in my main hand and use it to activate The Flesh Is Weak, I always see one of two sets numbers (this is with 188% CHD and 2041 DEX):

1. 6,008 normal hits and "+20% spikes" of 7,210
2. 17,304 critical hits and "+20% spikes" of 20,765


This is exactly the same thing that happens with MoC:Submission.

random +20% spikes for no apparent reason. You can calc the static tick damage without fail 100% accurately but then it hits for 20% more sometimes.

I would be very interested to know if this number was based on your CHC and if it applied to other static-damage dots.
So, at some point after I take my first swing, my APS will show my OH figure. My next attack will be with my MH weapon, but my ally's next attack will be based on my OH weapon.


This is consistent with what i found. The "active" hand should be the one that just stuck, whose APS is displayed, and whose dmg/dps is checked for by passive skills that alternate between OH/MH such as Mystic Ally and Backlash.

Since it appears we've confirmed how this works, I will offer up a brief definition of "active hand" in OP.
When I log into the game, my MH weapon is active. When I take my first swing, I deliver MH damage, but my APS doesn't update for that first swing. (It doesn't do it if I swing in town, either.) This means that my MH APS is on display, but my OH weapon is readied.


This is also consistent with the idea that the APS in display is associated with the weapon that just struck previously.

In the case of start up, game must put something into display APS, so it must just assume "MH hit last" and, therefore, "MH active" for purposes of passive skill MH/OH checks.

It appears that MH/OH/MH/OH attack sequence is tracked separately and starts on MH.
If I summon Mystic Ally at the start of the game, he delivers damage based on the weapon whose APS is not showing on my character sheet. This doesn't change, no matter how often I dismiss him and summon him again.


Hmmm. This is interesting and not expected. You sure?

I can also test a start-up backlash activation.
Anyway! Wave of Light is apparently still wonky. I can also cause the "double one attack" bug if I am armed with my usual (legendary) weapons. If my OH APS is on display, and I attack with WoL, my next TOC attack fails to toggle the APS, after which it toggles normally. In other words, with a 1.79 APS weapon in my OH and a 1.99 APS weapon in my MH, I see this:

1. Activate WoL; APS changes to 1.99.
2. Attack with TC; APS stays at 1.99.
3. Attack with TC; APS switches to 1.79 and begins alternating with each attack.


In this case, with OH on display, your next attack in MH/OH/MH/OH sequence will be MH. Instead, you activate a MH only skill, which then changes the APS display to the weapon just used/checked (WOL/MH).

Since using WOL (just like CS) doesn't change the MH/OH/MH/OH sequence, the next attack is still MH. After that MH attack, the display should still show MH APS since it reflects last weapon used. Finally, your next attack after that will be with OH since it is next in the MH/OH/MH/OH sequence, and your display APS will finally show that your OH was just used/checked.

It only starts to make sense when you think about display APS as "weapon just used." Until i got to that point, there was a numbers circus in my head.
In other news, I think I see what's happening now: your sheet APS is showing whatever weapon you last attacked with. When you start a new game, however, the sheet has to show something, even though you haven't attacked yet. It defaults to your MH weapon, and Mystic Ally will begin doing MH damage and then continue doing MH damage after your first attack, at which point it will begin swinging according to whatever weapon you last attacked with.

Cyclone is behaving the same way: whichever weapon you last attacked with, that's the weapon it's basing its damage on. So I guess we . . . just need to redefine "active weapon"?


Yes, yes, yes! All on same page now. I guess i posted above before I read through and absorbed this last post. Maybe my explanation will help others understand.

One consequence of this is that passive "active hand" dmg checks of Mystic Ally, Backlash, etc., should benefit more from high dmg MH to the extent that the player uses a lot of MH only skills during play, thereby increasing the proportion of total time with the MH APS on display.

/Major geeksnort.
It appears that MH/OH/MH/OH attack sequence is tracked separately and starts on MH.

This is what happens when your littlest one has croup: you mean to type things, and then you forget them! Anyway, yes, I came to the same conclusion :)
02/26/2013 09:32 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
Ps - before you click submit in any post ALWAYS ALWAYS ctrl-a ctrl-c incase you get logged out/dropped connection/etc. should be standard procedure for the forum vets.

This. So much this.

Anyway, I'll check the APS thing and its interaction with Cyclone in a few hours.


Sorry for being repetitive because I've said this before...
For long, thought out or serious posts, I type it up in notepad then paste it here :)
Maybe try linking up the listed aps with the actual attack animations of which weapon/arm gets extended when DWing. I think Deadly Reach animations actualy have the weapon "in-hand" vs most other generators whih dont. Standing in town with weapons sheathed may affect results for all we know lol (I'm at work and can't test)
Updated OP.

Let me know if more info can be added or if anything seems incorrect. Formatting/organization suggests also good!

Trying hard to keep OP brief and to the point.

Cheers.
Just wondering if items like SOJ and WKL with +elemental dmg% increase your weapons attack damage if it's of that same +element damage?
nice post
03/14/2013 06:30 AMPosted by Bertstare
Just wondering if items like SOJ and WKL with +elemental dmg% increase your weapons attack damage if it's of that same +element damage?

No, they don't. Elemental damage bonuses work like this:

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004456313#6
Kudos to you for making this analysis. That made me think - will it be significant upgrade if I choose to craft and equip Marquise Ruby in my main hand as I like using Cyclone Strike and WoL looks good for uber runs too? My EU profile:
http://eu.battle.net/d3/pl/profile/Star-2364/hero/10941509

Paper dps will drop a little if calcs don't lie but we all know these numbers are only for show.
02/13/2013 06:24 PMPosted by Vox
For most(?) runes, single skill activation yields several separate strikes. (?Each crit separately?)


Just switched to a WoL build, and I'm very curious about this.
The "bell" is quite large (I use 40 Spirit rune), and I'm wondering if the "bell" hits more than one enemy? I know the Shockwave (96% damage or so) obviously hits more than one, assuming there are more to be hit, but the "bell" itself... assuming monsters are grouped closely, can that hit more than one enemy for the 890% (or whatever) damage?

Thanks!
Hey I am still a little confused and don't know weather to go crit gems or min max gems I pretty much just farm misery using exploding palm, overawe, and bell, after reading this I just use red in main and green in off is this ok or should I lean towards one its scary costing 5 mill every time you take these things out....:( (can a gosu monk/mathematician please spec me and help)
09/30/2013 02:31 AMPosted by Inertia
Hey I am still a little confused and don't know weather to go crit gems or min max gems I pretty much just farm misery using exploding palm, overawe, and bell, after reading this I just use red in main and green in off is this ok or should I lean towards one its scary costing 5 mill every time you take these things out....:( (can a gosu monk/mathematician please spec me and help)


it all depends on your crit chance and if you have spirit regen gear, I looked at your gear, and doing a green gem in your main hand will be better than a red gem, since you have no spirit regen gear, and a high crit, you would be best served by using FoT : quickening.

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