The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

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02/28/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Cheshire

That is not at all what Travis said. He provided very well thought out responses to Gosu for his constructive feedback.

I frankly am loving the idea of a legendary that turns me into an ethereal and allows me to walk through enemies :D

Also love the idea regarding making crafting more relevant to the stats we want to see, making gear have more than just stats and adding better affixes, and increasing the chance to see cool items drop on the ground rather than mountains of junk.

Seriously? The only thing he agreed with Gosu about was the lack of skill diversity and the overabundance of items. Other than that, all he did was acknowledge some problems and drop a hint about a blog post.

You're excited for the proc effect of one legendary item? Proves to me that A) you've never played WD and B) you're a sycophant.

Nice name btw, really expresses you.

He agreed with nearly every thing in this post. And he even stated that most of these concerns the devs are actively working on. Which is nothing new... its just the first time we have really had any acknowledgment of most of this.

So what does this tell us? If we make more constructive posts... not "I am done until they fix items or skills or bots or whatever it may be !" type posts... then we get responses. The devs are actively working on all the issues we are worried about... they just don't reply in QQ threads.
Gosu, Travis,

you guys are great, even if other players dont take your view, communication is the key. I was once banned twice due to my posting of trolling due to any lack of communication form blizzard and the CM. Now when i see posting like this like one posting stated you have change my view of not blizzard but the DEV team. blizzard South. Aka-- Fist of the North Star vs Fist of the South Star. Two equal powerhouse controlling the destiny of the Diablo game series...keep up the communication even it is once in awhile .thanks Travis for taking the time out of your hectic work to give us some feedback. and thanks Gosu for posting a great thread..It has cause a spark that will finally make D3 part of the two former series but original from it.. that's how it should be..
I don't frequent the general forums much but it's nice to find a thread like this every few thousand threads.

Thank you Gosu, for everyone that doesn't reply to this thread there are probably thousands who are in agreement.

Also thanks for the response Travis.
Skill Diversity

This is something we constantly strive to improve. Yes, there are a lot of runes and abilities that are lacking, but as you can see with our patches, we try over time to improve the balance of them regularly. In some cases runes are designed just to be fun or cool. In other cases, we try to make a large spectrum of runes competitive, but the math ends up favoring one over the others. In some cases, certain abilities or ability combinations are so potent that they overshadow almost every other option available. WW/Sprint/Battle Rage is a good example of this. There are some cool ideas here, but I don’t want to turn this post into a discussion about specifics of design. This is a problem that we can’t fix overnight, but we are confident that over time we can constantly improve the situation and hopefully the community can see that we are making efforts on this front with every patch we release.

Thank you so much Travis!
+30% Blizzard Respect (with 70% more if you guys actually go through with it)

The item hunt wouldn't feel nearly as tedious if we had more interesting, powerful skills. Please just replace the very underused runes with amazing new variants, you'll have plenty of time to balance them later but the players will be happy and occupied in the meantime. If you keep doing this, we promise we won't be mad when you nerf them!
Holy... now *that* is a blue post I'd be happy to get behind. So much in-depth discussion on real issues. I hope the next ask the devs Q&A will follow along with that nicely.

Great post, Travis. Really great. The community seriously needs more of that!

Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system.

Yeah that's pretty much what your customers would like to see. Quite frankly I'm tired of this attitude towards the D2 skill system. Yeah it's old but why can't it be evolved upon? Blizzard created this genre! We do enjoy D3's skill system as it is, but would like to see some kind of symbiotic relationship with D2's skill system. How many times do we have to ask for this until it's realized that design goals are not in line with player expectations? Just do it already.
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system. The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape. People fondly remember making tons of characters and trying out different builds, and while I have a lot of those same fond memories, I also remember that usually the end result of my time investment in my “cool new character” was complete and utter disappointment.

... and once again we are told that meaningful character choices / customisation / identity, in "today's landscape," is simply Not Fun (TM).

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
People fondly remember making tons of characters and trying out different builds, and while I have a lot of those same fond memories, I also remember that usually the end result of my time investment in my “cool new character” was complete and utter disappointment.

I have the opposite experience.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Today the availability of web sites or posts about character builds would mostly overshadow any of that old character rerolling.

Online character builds were as freely available back in the "fond memories" days, and somehow they didn't ruin everything.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Character customization is fun.

If you actually believe this, please introduce it into Diablo 3.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Another system we haven’t talked about before is the long term plan to change the way the Paragon system works to allow it to offer more character customization in the form of actual power.

This sounds promising, unless it is something you also get to respec at will with no penalty.

Thanks for the post BTW (seriously!).
02/28/2013 07:12 PMPosted by Cheshire
Dev to Gosu: Our game is better, your suggestions are meaningless. Resistance is futile.

Pretty much this. And then the posters are like: "You just totally improved my perception of Blizzard", "We appreciate that you are reading threads like this.", "Great to see your post", "Love it, love." and the most hilarious "We're in perfect agreement then".

Seriously guys? He just threw you a bone and you guys went like "Yey!". You're probably now smiling from ear to ear like the trollface, but did you actually read what the game designer said?
That is not at all what Travis said. He provided very well thought out responses to Gosu for his constructive feedback.

Indeed very well thought out response. He didn't even say whether or not they plan to implement his suggestions (which they wont), which should be the key thing you are meant to look for.
Travis: Thank you for your great input on the forums. I can honestly say that such input is incredibly encouraging and insightful, insofar that it provides something that critics (and fans) of the game, such as myself, can look toward for hope that the quality of D3 will improve. There is one thing that I really must stress, however...the dev team MUST find a way to separate weapon dps from skill damage. This is not a new or novel idea (and has been around for quite some time), and would do wonders towards itemization. There are many legendaries that have unique affixs and are never used bc they do not have the same dps impact as weapons with high dps and crit chance/dmg.

Not to make a comparison, but I greatly enjoy how the stats in Torchlight 2 each have multiple benefits and that, generally, there isnt one "primary" skill for each class. It would be great if D3 could incorporate something along these lines. It would definitely make some folks made due to the change in importance of certain stats, however it would allow for a much better and deeper game experience.
If they really wanted to go whole hog and make an insanely great game, they'd swipe everything GGG is doing and wedge D3's combat and physics engine in. Voila! :D
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape.

That isn't actually an argument. "Dated" is an poorly defined term and as such can't be the basis of any arguments for why a system is "good" or "bad".

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
People fondly remember making tons of characters and trying out different builds, and while I have a lot of those same fond memories, I also remember that usually the end result of my time investment in my “cool new character” was complete and utter disappointment.

If by "memories" you are referring to what I did just a couple weeks ago, sure. I have "fond memories". If you were disappointed in character making, why did you make characters? You need to go into what PRECISELY lead to that "disappointment" whatever that was. Was it finding out your build was "non-viable" in hell mode due to immunities or other game play features? If so this is either a game play problem, or a (As Ego Raptor would put it) conveyance problem. The game let you make too many bad decisions until you just hit a brick wall and couldn't progress.

Ways to fix this problem include addressing immunities, or that which makes builds dead on arrival, (You guys did that already) or changing the way the game tells you about stuff like immunities, so you can make more informed choices about how you want your character to "actually" play, rather than build a character how you think it will play and have the game smash you.

Since D3 has no such mechanics mentioned, there is nothing "in game" that can cause "disappointment" in the magnitude you alluded to, and I'm failing to see the coherence in your argument.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
You would read a post saying someone else tried the build that you had imagined would be amazing, only to find out it was awful, or you would find out it was great and build it also.

Or you could just not look online and... you know.... play the game!

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
The skill system today allows people the flexibility to try out things they enjoy without penalizing players who want to experiment with new ideas. The only difference is if their idea doesn’t pan out, you didn’t waste hours leveling a bad character.

Again, what makes a character "bad"? If it is "non-viability" of the build, this was addressed. If it was thinking a skill looked cool, but being bored with it after trying it out, you guys fixed that already by unlocking skills before rune effects. Hell unlock all rune effects before you put points in them. If you're knowingly putting points into a rune you've tried from 1 to 60, and you know this skill is boring, you have no one to blame but yourself.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
One of them which I mentioned in another post is the plan to eventually introduce a system to allow players to customize their character appearance more.

Ye gods why? ARPG characters have usually been defined by what they DO, not what they look like. Give players a way to really SPECIALIZE their characters so that no two characters of the same class can do exactly the same things, and that will solve the main gripes about customization.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
We have discussed ideas such as letting players have some control over what stats will appear on the item they are crafting, using the crafting system to allow players to reroll the values of affixes an item already has, etc. This is a system that, with time, should be able to find a better place in the overall gameplay experience of Diablo.

This is kind of how I thought crafting would be on release. You can craft some entry level rares / legendaries for your difficulty to mitigate bad RNG during progression, but at the end of it, you'd use crafting to augment weapons to turn almost good things into "at least" usable things.

Thanks for posting, regardless of my disagreements with some of your points.
wow thanks alot travis, u have brought back hope for some of us fans
Very nice of you to respond in such a thorough manner. Most of us are advocates for the game and sometimes it can end up feeling a little like 'us vs. them' so it's nice to see a real response from a meaningful part of the D3 team like that. You've touched that warm, nerdy place in my heart ^^.
Cheers Travis ive linked this to my local forums for my D3 mates to read. really good work and good to see things are in serious motion.
@ Developer (or as i like to call them Dwelvehelicopter):

It seems to me that you have thought about EVERYTHING the community suggests a dozen of times already and probably tested it. But why does it take so long to ship changes? How much stuff do you throw out again? Is it worth for us to even make these suggestions?
02/28/2013 02:45 PMPosted by Gosu

Perhaps they should find a way to differentiate them a bit more rather than scrap it like they did elemental damage/resists. Not saying you said to scrap it. Quick example...frozen enemies remain chilled once unfrozen, chilled enemies take more damage from cold for duration of chill along with slower movement, blinded enemies have a lower chance to hit for a duration after regaining vision, stunned enemies take more damage while stunned or have dodge ability removed during duration, knockback is just fine I think(maybe have ways to increase knockback length), slow could perhaps lower not only movement speed, but attack speed and reduce dodge chance as well. Just a thought. I know those do a few of those things but I was just giving full examples.

That's fine and all, but then you have to take into consideration the amount of impact that each of these affixes has on the way you play the game as opposed to the other affixes that are competing for those affix slots. We don't want to run into a situation where affixes have little to no affect on the way you play the game.

"frozen enemies remain chilled once unfrozen, chilled enemies take more damage from cold for duration of chill along with slower movemen"

There are a great number of implied mechanics in this idea. Implied mechanics are things that many players will not understand because there is simply no visible explanation for the mechanic. outside of its visual function. Where would you describe to someone how such an affix actually works? While I don't think the idea is a bad one in essence, it makes one wonder how even experienced players would understand it without having to look it up.

No doubt you have to factor in how these affixes would play out but there are a few ways just off the top of my head in how you could implement them. Examples
1) Frozen/Chilled is tied to other "cold" affix/suffix. Such as an item has to roll + to blizzard for frozen/chilled to also be able to roll. Hence it would make sense and not be randomly rolled in.
2) You could have most of these types of affix/suffix to be limited to uniques/legendary items. For a few examples:
Medusas Gaze Helm: +couple mods and has chance to turn enemies into stone.
Shield of the Sun: Upon successful block, attacker is blinded temporarily.
Zeus's Long bow: Adds lightning damage and a "shock" that stuns target for "x" duration.
Frost Giant Axe: Increased cold damage, high chance to freeze target, increased chill duration, + cold res. - fire res
3) You could have them randomly roll on all and do as I will suggest later and just tie it into a stat sheet somewhere. Read further for more information.

As for being able to figure out what the actual impact is...there's also a few ways you can go about it.
1) As you said, force players to have to look it up, which D3 and many other games have done in some aspects as is. I don't think it's that big a deal but hey, why not provide the info if you can.
2) You could actually compile a "compendium" that's accessible in game that is similar to D3s journal for locations/monsters that actually contains more detailed information about the game in all areas.
3) Here's the blasphemous idea for many, do something similar to path of exile where your stat sheet shows each individual skill and all that special information that is tied to each.
4) Just simply add it to the stat sheet. For example
a) Frozen chance: 5%
Frozen Duration: 5 seconds
Chill Duration: 5 seconds
Chill Increased Damage: +5%
Chill slow on enemy: 2%
b) Blind chance: 5%
Blind duration: 5 seconds
Partially Blinded enemies chance to hit: -5%
Partial Blind duration: 5 seconds

Obviously not the best looking or potentially worded the best, but I hope it's sufficient to get the point across. Your thoughts?
I don’t want to derail this by getting into why primary stats were introduced or debate whether they are good or bad..

Aww, I love behind-the-scenes developer stuff. It's really interesting read.
fantastic post. Thank you very much for your time and effort of writting this. It indeed shine a light on the game and it also provided me a better understanding on how the game would have become if the dev team put more heart into it. The sad thing is that the Diablo3 game really disappointed me, with very similar structure comepare to D2 and sometimes even worth than D2, no major improvement, the item custimization system is pure crap, with tons of useless stuff, and using the same appearance as D2, everything just looks like a upgraded version of D2...The set items even had the same name i mean what is with took them ten years to create this game yet they can't even come up with some new names...lengendary items range from lv20-lv60, with only 1 item that people can ACTUALLY use for each slot....i don't even understand why the low level legendaries exist at all.........What you have written here just keeps remind me if the dev team really loved this game, they could have done a much better job. Much Much Better. They totally ruined the good name of Diablo. I still remember how proud I was when playing D2 and asking all my friends to join me. Now? never, i will never ask any one who never played this game to play with me, I don't wanna see their sad face when they stuck here for houndreds of hours trying to figure our what they are really doing.......I have to admit that I am a big fan of blizzard, from the old days where SC, Diablo1 hellfire first came out, then WoW, D2, WAR3, SC2, D3, i have played every single game Blizzard has to offer and yet D3 is a HUGE disappointment. All the stuff u just said could be implemented to the game ages ago, and I really didn't expect blizzard, such a wonderful game developer, to spend the past 10 years creating a game which is so unfulfilling.....and I do agree with that joke this guy made on the game designer: the game is bad, and things must be done but we are not doing anything...sigh...
Well, after all, thank you again for taking your time and effort to write this. great job!
02/28/2013 05:55 PMPosted by Ðragonslayer
Which was pretty much how it was in d1 and d2. Isn't broke, didn't need fixing. That's alot of the problem with this game. Things that worked fine had to be changed when they worked fine in the first place and the changes only cater to a certain segment of players. I'm guessing in your case elite pro gamers.

It was completely unnecessary and really was broken.

I much prefer health globes over potions in a broken system like D2.

I'll say it again, potion spam is STUPID...
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