The Salvation of Diablo 3: A Guide by Gosu

General Discussion
Prev 1 25 26 27 50 Next
Thanks for the post Travis, was good to read what your/Blizz are thinking :)

I like A LOT of Gosu's post, but I feel like he does try to add a lot of systems on what we already have (not that his new ideas are bad)... I'd rather see more of his ideas under refining what we have or changing current systems, instead of piling "power" and "prime" system upon system etc...

Also maybe a return to something along elemental resists (not immunities!) on monsters, and elemental damage having a point... that might add diversity too... without insane complexity. But who knows how things like this would pan out in reality (same goes for Gosu's ideas).

Edit: Okay one more thing! I believe the tiering of items is also very steep, and part of the issue with "replace trifecta stat stick 1 with stat stick 2" every 5 levels (and beyond into Paragon). It is more similar to WoW than D2, where in D2 you could use a level 29 ring (SOJ) well into 80's.
02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Challenge is certainly something that has value; players can’t feel a sense of accomplishment if everything in the game can be face rolled. I think many people would agree that, at launch, the game was too challenging. It was very difficult to progress through Inferno depending on your class or items and the challenge was a large part of the reason players felt like they were driven to the AH in the first place. When you present players with difficult content they will find a way to overcome it which usually means using only the most powerful items and abilities. The unfortunate side effect is it also drives players away from the play styles they feel are “just fun”. We have taken steps to improve this problem a number of ways; reducing the overall difficulty of Inferno, improving the potency of underused skills to allow players more diversity in their gameplay, and introducing Monster Power to allow players to set the game to a level which they feel is enjoyable. I think the right way to introduce challenge is to make it optional, for example having difficult content for the players that enjoy it without penalizing the players who prefer a more relaxed gameplay experience.

First I want to say that I am incredibly grateful for your thorough response. I never expected to have a game designer directly reply to my opinions and ideas and I am humbled that you felt it worth your time to do so. Now lets get down to the subject at hand! :)

I absolutely agree with your observations on challenge and the impact it has on players and the game. I also agree that the extreme difficulty of vanilla inferno played a large role in INITIALLY driving players to the AH. Having said that, I don't feel that we are on the same page where the concept of difficulty is concerned. First of all, I am not advocating the effortless facerolling of content in general. I don't believe that content of any kind should be facerolled by anyone who hasn't rightfully earned the ability to do so. Most importantly, I don't believe that the difficulty of a game must be solely represented in how much damage monsters deal and how much HP they have. This is why I used Belial as an example in my "challenge" section. Challenge is about MUCH more than how fast the majority of monsters can kill you or how long it takes you to kill them.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
When you present players with difficult content they will find a way to overcome it which usually means using only the most powerful items and abilities.

First of all, there should be no such thing as "the most powerful items and abilities". Those are both relative concepts in essence. It seems that you folks at Blizzard have created a situation where there is a clear and almost seemingly purposeful distinction between the power of a handful of given abilities and items. Abilities should only be as powerful as the person who utilizes them. Likewise, to a certain extent, a significant portion of an item's power should be determined by who that item belongs to and how they plan on using it. Obviously this can only go so far, as poor rolls on an item won't(and shouldn't) amount to much for even the most clever of players. That philosophy is simply not supported by the current version of Diablo 3. That's not to say that a person can simply turn a universally accepted "bad" item into a powerful one, it's simply saying that one set of well-rolled items MUST be viewed as "bad" by one player with one spec, while those same items would be viewed as "godly" by another player with another spec. This is simply not the case at all in Diablo 3. Can you imagine a loot hunt that is guided by that sort of design philosophy? As I said in my post, every class with every build is shooting for almost the exact same values of the exact same stats.

I think that the concept of "just fun" has absolutely no place in influencing the design of this game(at least not as it is understood in this particular instance). This game has the potential to introduce such a wide array of powerful play styles that just about any person should be able to create a build that is not only "just fun" but also very powerful. This is the goal that I believe Blizzard needs to shoot for. There cannot exist a handful of builds that are many times more powerful than EVERY SINGLE "just fun" build. Players need to have the OPTIONS of taking those "just fun" builds and, using proper itemization and supplemental skills/runes, turning them into something that is fun AND efficient! A small handful of useful stats that have little to no impact on skill choices, on top of a skill system that consists of MOSTLY supplemental skills can never accomplish this level of entertainment.

The kind of challenge that I wish to see is the challenge that is similarly difficult to the poorly-geared player as it is to the well-geared player. Again this is why I chose the vanilla Belial encounter as an example. A well-geared DH could certainly defeat Belial easier than a poorly-geared DH, but that well-geared DH had to incorporate the same set of "skills" as the poorly-geared DH. You have to dodge the mini-explosions in the "sunken arms" phase NO MATTER WHAT. You have to avoid the fire breath NO MATTER WHAT. These are challenges that were, at the time, practically impossible to overcome with gear. You need to think fast, position yourself properly and click precisely. THAT is where truly enjoyable challenge will come from in a game like Diablo 3. That and using your brain power to create a build, supported by a set of gear, that you enjoy but is ALSO efficient.

I also agree with you that, for the most part, challenge should be optional. However, I feel that ONLY the kind of challenge that can be COMPLETELY overcome with gear is the kind of challenge that should be optional. Obviously a poorly-geared player doesn't want to face a swarm of monsters that he/she is incapable of killing. But will that same person want to come back to tackle that challenge when they are more prepared for it? Absolutely! That is the kind of challenge that Monster Power offers, and I am very fond of it.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Removing “bad” affixes is certainly a suggestion that surfaces from time to time, another suggestion is to group all the good affixes into a shared category so that they can’t all roll on the same item. I think on the surface those sound good but the reality of what they would do to the itemization isn’t what we want.

I'm so sorry, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but the wording of this statement is making me question whether or not you understood my stance on itemization. : ( There should be no such thing as "bad" affixes...period. Affixes must be "bad" for one spec and good for another. Any affix that is universally bad has no place in the game. The same thing applies to any affix that is universally good. Unfortunately, all of the examples I gave in my post fall under this category with absolute and irrefutable certainty. The evidence to this fact is literally insurmountable.

As for grouping all good affixes into a shared category, my answer is the exact same thing. There cannot exist so many universally "good" affixes! The value of an affix must be determined by the method in which a player wishes to apply it! Literally every single affix should be comparable to the next so long as they are properly supplied and supported given a specific build and quantity of said affix. So while someone might consider Crit Chance to be universally good, what if it was on an item in the version of the game that I proposed? A version where there are other affixes and skills that take great advantage of non-critical damage. That's not to say that crit chance would necessarily become a "bad" affix, it's just that, in this instance, it doesn't carry the same weight as a number of other stats!

Please allow me to pick your brain for a moment as I do not often get the opportunity to do so. What exactly do you feel the realities of these itemization implications are?

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Specifically as it relates to Thorns, no one will disagree that in its current state is pretty lackluster, but it supports a play style that I’m sure we can capture with enough alterations to both the core mechanic and some supporting class abilities and passives.

I don't doubt that you guys can find a way to make thorns useful/fun. However, the very essence of the thorns mechanic almost screams for inefficiency due to the nature of the way this game is played. Monsters do not attack as fast or as often as you do. This means that, almost irrefutably, you are going to be able to kill monsters faster by focusing on skills and affixes that don't involve you waiting around for monsters to kill themselves. That's not to say that thorns couldn't behave as more of a supplementary style of damage dealing, which I absolutely believe it can and should. It's just that, in order for that affix to be desirable, players need to be able to take a significant benefit from it without having to focus too heavily on it.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
As it relates to bucketing affixes so Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Attack Speed are mutually exclusive, yeah that would add more choice to item selection, but it would be artificial. I think this issue has some underlying causes that we should look at before going to the extreme of preventing them from existing on the same item.

Again I apologize, but I'm not certain that you understand my stance on itemization. Or perhaps you are responding to someone other than myself? I never once went over any of these things in my post. I am not for the "bucketing" of affixes such as crit chance, crit damage and attack speed. This will not lead to good itemization... You're absolutely correct in that such a change would create artificial choices. They are artificial because all of those affixes increase DPS in almost the exact same way. I do not think that they should be prevented from existing on the same

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
One of the first reasons trifecta items are an issue isn’t that they are so good; it’s that they are the only thing that is good. Of course you want the only three stats that increase your character damage in a meaningful way on the same item, because there are ONLY three stats that increase your character damage in a meaningful way other than your primary stat. I don’t want to derail this by getting into why primary stats were introduced or debate whether they are good or bad. I do want to say that Diablo 3 has been through much iteration during which a vast number of approaches to stats and items were tested and in the end we felt primary stats were the right thing for Diablo 3.

Spot on, you've fully identified one of the biggest issues of Diablo 3's itemization; the standardization of stats (the attainment of the standards in defense and ALL of the options for offense). I am not opposed to main stat's and I never said I was :) I agree that they are the right thing for Diablo 3. That's not what my post was about.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
I think a better approach to this issue is to introduce more affixes that players are interested in, so there is a sense of tension over what the six affixes are on your “ideal gear”. When a perfect pair of gloves is “Core Stat, Vit, Res All, Crit Chance, Crit Dmg, Attack Speed” and you can’t even imagine another stat you would want instead of one of those, we have a bigger problem.

There we go! We are in full agreement here. A large chunk of my post covers this issue in GREAT detail. However this issue is NOT just one of itemization, it is actually equally affected by class balance. A player is not going to desire some of those stats at all if their build doesn't support the optimal use of them. The two biggest problems with those stats is that they are universally desired, AND there are no suitable alternatives. They aren't universally desired solely BECAUSE there are no suitable alternatives (though that is a factor), they are universally desired because the improve the effectiveness of almost every single skill/rune/spec.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
The “problem” with trifecta items can’t be discussed without also pointing out that it is only a problem because the AH makes obtaining these items so easy. On a basic level, I have no problem with items existing that players highly desire, but when it is a forgone conclusion that you will have those items then we have problems. If the auction house never existed, players wouldn’t be upset that trifecta exists, they would be upset that they haven’t been lucky enough to find their own trifecta items.

Almost verbatim of my post :) This is why I said that I don't think many players understand that the AH is not a problem in and of itself, but rather it exacerbates a problem with itemization in general! I am very relieved to learn that Blizzard is aware of this!

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
To summarize, I think the right solution to this problem isn’t cutting trifecta items from the game, but rather it’s about getting to a point where you want more things than you can fit on an item.

My thoughts exactly. Isn't that exactly what I said?lol Perhaps you are also trying to respond to some of the responses to my OP? I don't think trifecta items should be cut. Definitely not!

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
I think your affix ideas are cool, and we have spent a lot of time lately talking about what kind of awesome effects we could put on items that we don’t currently have. I’d even say that as cool as some of these ideas are, we can go even further.

I completely and utterly agree again! I came up with a lot of those ideas in a very short amount of time. That's why I said that I think a table full of idea-bursting devs can come up with far more ideas and greatly improve on some of the system ideas I proposed :D

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system. The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape. People fondly remember making tons of characters and trying out different builds, and while I have a lot of those same fond memories, I also remember that usually the end result of my time investment in my “cool new character” was complete and utter disappointment.

I can only partially agree with you here. The Nephalem Power Stat is, without a doubt, similar in essence to certain areas of the Diablo 2 skill system. Having said that, I am beginning to feel that perhaps I was too vague in my description of the system as well as my reasoning for why it would work.

I absolutely agree that, as a foundation system, it is a dated one that would not function as well as the current Diablo 3 skill system. That is why my proposal exists as a support system to what exists in the current iteration of the Diablo 3 skill system. The rune system is a fantastic one, but I don't think that it is capable of covering certain areas of customization that can, without a doubt, improve the game. Class specific affixes have attempted to cover this area of customization, but unfortunately they have failed in doing so.

A well-functioning itemization system cannot contain affixes that are only useful in the most rare of affix combinations. Even if all universally bad affixes were removed and a ton more interesting affixes were introduced, class specific item affixes would STILL have no place in the game. Why you ask? HERE'S WHY! :D

The fact that there are 5 classes with a combined total of well over 100 skills means that customization of these skills cannot occur on a fully randomized item without some serious and unavoidable issues. The very concept of this design is literally at war with itself. The more class specific affixes you introduce, the greater the POTENTIAL for customization becomes. HOWEVER, more affixes also equals a significantly greater chance that you will NEVER roll the particular affix that you desire.

So basically we have a system where the improvement of one aspect results in the equal downfall of another! If it is already hard enough to roll a collection of certain affixes, then how hard is it to roll those affixes plus the EXACT class specific affix that you wanted, PLUS a "worthy" value of that affix??? Not only is it difficult on class specific items, but what about non-class specific items!? Then you have like 30 possible affixes and a huge amount of numerical values to pick from! The sheer odds are just infinitely frustrating. The better the customization becomes, the worse your chances at acquiring the item you want becomes. This is an inherently flawed system that is in dire need of a redesign.

The Nephalem Power system accomplishes this by placing players in a situation where, if they desire the alteration of specific skills or the improvement of a class specific function, they need only roll one specific affix and hope for a good value of it. Just like if players want to resist all elemental damage, they hunt for all resists. They don't have to hunt for this affix that I've made up that resembles current class specific affixes.

"Female Barbarians with less than 1500 strength receive 2% less damage from elemental attacks"

Do you see the line of similarity I've drawn? It might seem absurd but it is literally the exact same thing in essence. You've created a situation in which it is almost impossible for players to receive a specific benefit without tremendously sacrificing the overall power that the other affixes have granted the specific item. It's all because there is too much variety in a set of affixes that can only grant power to an EXTREMELY limited number of affix collections.

Now I do think that there is potential for concern with the desirability of Nephalem Power points simply because of the variety of benefits you can receive from JUST one affix (it's almost the exact opposite of the current system lol). However, I am incredibly confident that with proper balance and implementation, the system can prosper tremendously. I also believe that the foundation of the NP point system could still be improved quite a bit. It's just in conceptual stages. This is also why I proposed that players who are lvl'ing up in paragon would receive Nephalem Power points every 5 or 10 levels. This would give ALL players a way of having SOME points if they want them and it would allow players who don't want the stat on their gear to avoid it without missing out on some of the extra customization! :) It might even be cool to introduce other ways of permanently gaining a few NP points. Obviously you wouldn't want to overdo it as that would largely defeat the purpose of the affix, but you also want to give players a way to participate in the fun of the stat.

It also makes perfect sense that you would gain "nephalem power" as your character increases in strength. Plus, people have been asking for more paragon benefits and I think this would serve fairly well in giving that to players.

To summarize, I think that you guys should truly consider the potential benefits that this system can offer the game. It doesn't necessarily have to be the exact system that I laid out, but I really think that something akin to the NP point system can have an enormous increase on customization, build diversity and the quality of itemization. Please remember that the fact that this system supports the foundation of the Diablo 3 skill and item systems instead of "serves" as the foundation makes it differ greatly from that of the Diablo 2 system. There wouldn't be any respeccing involved and your choices wouldn't be permanent. There would be no reason for you to feel "complete and utter disappointment" The same set of rules just don't apply. Also, the time investment is not one void of return. If you aren't happy with the NP point items you've chosen, then simply sell them to someone who wants them :)

Oh how badly I wish I could discuss this with the folks over at Blizzard in person. I think it would be a particularly engaging and potentially enlightening discussion. Give me the opportunity to do so and I would make it happen in a New Tristram Minute. I really think that I could convince you guys that it's a good idea, or at least that it's the foundation for a good idea.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
In some cases runes are designed just to be fun or cool.

I'm terribly sorry but I believe, with all that I am, that this is not a good design approach. There is absolutely no reason that runes can't be both fun/cool AND powerful/efficient. I know that I speak on behalf of the vast majority of Diablo 3 players when I say that ALL skills need to have the ability, with proper gear and placement, to be powerful and useful.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
In other cases, we try to make a large spectrum of runes competitive, but the math ends up favoring one over the others. In some cases, certain abilities or ability combinations are so potent that they overshadow almost every other option available.

Perhaps I am assuming too much in saying this but, is the math not favoring one set of runes over another largely because of the current state of itemization? You can't balance so many skills to be all as useful as the next while ALSO trying to differentiate each from the other to the point where you don't feel like you're playing the same way, regardless of the spec you've chosen, if you don't have the item affix pool to support those skills. Certain skills should be powerful BECAUSE of certain items or the pairing with other certain skills, while other skills can gain their power because of other items or the pairing with other skills. Hell, some skills can just be powerful without much assistance from other skills or items, and just made more powerful in different ways with the help of said skills/items! That makes perfect sense right? I think so :P

If the math continues to favor one skill or set of skills over another, then is it unreasonable to alter the inferior skills in such a way where this isn't the case? This is why I touched so heavily on my philosophy of foundation skills versus supplemental skills. Foundation skills are the skills that significantly alter the way you play the game in every sense. Supplemental skills are the skills that help to support these foundations. The same thing can be said about item affixes, except that with items almost every single affix has the potential to behave as either supplemental OR as a foundation. Some affixes could make your build possible, while others will simply supplement your character more generally. Likewise, those same affixes could have the exact opposite effect on a character with a very different build!

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
In some cases, certain abilities or ability combinations are so potent that they overshadow almost every other option available.

This reminds me of one very important point I made in my post. I STRONGLY believe that Blizzard should consider the top 10 builds that exist in the game right now. Why are they strong? They allow you to move fast via movespeed skills and kill fast via a focus on limiting the amount of time you spend with "inefficient" resource management. I think that Blizzard needs to take these specs, then create several hundred more specs that can accomplish the same thing in different ways.

Some specs can do it with superior movespeed and on the move damage output. Other specs can do it with raw killing power that allows them to spend very small amounts of time in each area. The most important thing to remember (I think) is that certain specs will provide greater levels of efficiency on different levels of monster power. So while the Monk Tempest rush spec might be a killer on low MP levels, the big-damage, Wizard-Global Impact Meteor rune and high AP return Arcane Missile with Teleport spec(from my post) might be more efficient at MP3 or 4, providing similar or even greater benefits than the Monk spec that so many people were flocking to.

This is why Monster Power is so utterly important to the future of this game. Amazing skill diversity would be almost impossible to achieve if you had ONE flat difficulty to balance around. In that case, the spec that moves the fastest while killing everything you run by is always going to be the best spec by far. You don't want to create a situation where the goal of the game for every character and every single spec is to just run through everything as fast as possible and never look back. While I absolutely think that all classes should have MANY, diverse methods of doing this(it's a lot of fun, especially when there's a lot of different ways to do it), I also think that they should have MANY MORE methods of fast, powerful and efficient killing on higher MP levels. This way, "efficiency" can be applied in an infinitely greater number of ways. Some builds might excel in ramping up damage over time which would be awesome on very high MP levels, while others might be more suitable for massive burst damage that would be considered overkill on lower MP levels, perfect at medium MP levels and inefficient on very high MP levels. See where I'm going with this? :)

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
We are constantly exploring new ideas for how to make crafting more relevant and trying to carve out a more defined role for it within the scope of Diablo 3 itemization.

I would also love to speak with the developers about this in person. Where is my invite to Irvine?!?! :D :D :D :D :D

In conclusion, I would like to give you tremendous thanks for taking the time to respond to me at such great length. I truly appreciate it and I will not forget it :) I ask that you please give further consideration to some of my ideas. In fact, I am totally serious when I say that I would love the opportunity to speak to some of the developers in person (or even on skype lol). I doubt that such a thing will occur as I am not a Blizzard employee, but hey, a guy can dream can't he? All I can say is this: give me the chance and you won't regret it. That is a promise.

Edit: Gosu crits Travis for -ERROR 6397112: Too many characters-
Travis u just gave me some hope for this game =)
Maybe some of the people (excluding Mr. Day here...) in charge of Diablo 3 can look at all those "other" RPG makers; A portion of them plucked their now successful ideas from the dumpster at Blizzard.....



Thanks for the write ups.
02/28/2013 10:52 PMPosted by drankurbeer
the AH makes obtaining trifecta items so easy? yeah right. maybe if youve farmed long enough for 2 billion gold or pay $250 just to get one good one. i dont agree at all with this. those are hard enough to craft and obtain. we dont need to make it any harder than it already is.

Trifecta items are not that expensive if you are not looking for the 9/10/50/prim stats. You could get decent ones around 10 millions... unless you're looking for an IK with AS CHC...



Devs READ and acknowledge your failures and move on!
Gosu, you have to have SOME bad affixes in this game. Some items have to roll as crap. But... the bad affixes shouldn't out number the good like 20 : 1... and if you include bad rolls on good affixes... its more like 50 : 1. Case in point, you need a few "meh" to "bad" affixes.
i hope really hope, blizz implement fixes to all the points of this post, this is the bible :)

Thanks Travis for demonstrate your consideration and commitment with the community
While Gosu's post made me feel all warm and fuzzy, I will certainly NOT get my hopes up at all from what you posted, Mr. Day. Though, it's nice that you took the time to respond to Gosu's Diablo 3 suggestions. As much as it's nice to see your wall of text saying that the Diablo 3 development team is considering this and discussing that, I won't hold my breath until you actually implement these fixes that you and your team are considering or discussing.

I will be patient, as I get the idea that game design and major content changes are not done overnight (or even in a month).
This was a very interesting read Gosu. I like it a lot. Thank you for giving me something to sink my brain into rather than just trying to stem the tide of "tit for tat" on the forums. :)

That said, you mentioned resource regeneration, but mainly for Barbs and Wizards (and maybe WDs - I was kind of glossing at that point since I have yet to play my WDs enough to want any spoilers on them). The DH class has some well rounded skills and runes, but they're mainly hampered by lack of sufficient resource regeneration. That's why the four piece Legacy Nat's Set has held on for so long (and has had a rather negative impact on DH development over the months).

Take the Bola Shot (Volatile Explosives) / Cluster Arrow (Loaded for Bear) build I've been trying out. I like what Bola Shot can do, but it lacks any rune that gives you instant gratification. Nearly everybody takes the range enhancement rune over all else because there's nothing else interesting about the spell, unlike the Wizard's Explosive Blast, which does have an instant detonation rune.

Now let's factor in Cluster Arrow (Loaded for Bear). Arguably the best rune to take here, but even with its damage increase, the hatred cost is absurd. I get two off at most unless I take the Vengeance passive, which gives me an extra 25 hatred, bringing me up to 150, enough for three uses of CA:LFB in a row. But then there's the problem of "oh snap, now I can't do anything instant because I'm out of hatred". So I'm forced yet again to use Preparation (do you see where this is leading?). Preparation is mandatory. It is the bread and butter of resource maintenance, and since I'm using a massive hatred spender, I have no choice but to use Prepration (Punishment) and hope I have enough Discipline left to at vault away at least once just so I can use my beloved Multishot (Fire At Will) or more CA:LFB before I go dry again. Unless I have the four piece Nat's set to back that up, I go dry so often I feel totally gimped. I'm forced to use a playstyle akin to an Arcane Mage on max mana burn cycle in WoW - bleed myself dry and build up...slowly, ever so slowly.

Reducing the cost of our resource spenders and/or making our base regeneration something other than pitiful single digit nonsense would inject a great amount of flexibility into my "rotation". But for now, I feel like I'm starving constantly on nearly all classes. The downtime spent utilizing puny damage (in most cases) primary "free" resource generators suddenly makes me feel weak as a kitten in the middle of a frenetic battle. I want to be able to use varied tactics, not PEWPEW -> Prep -> PEWPEW -> run and take pot shots for fifteen seconds before I get decent resources back, and then rinse/repeat ad nauseum. That makes me feel like a Diablo 3 version of an overused, unappreciated healer in WoW, something I know a fair bit about as healing was my favorite role.

Resource management should be present, but not to such an extent that I feel it breathing down my neck constantly. I know of many Witch Doctors that would give their Eye Teeth (if they haven't already been extracted in some barbaric ritual first) to have better base resource regeneration such that they didn't have to devote nearly all regen affix capable slots to just that purpose. I'd love to be able to fire for more than three to five seconds before ending up running on fumes.

For me, it's less itemization holding me back with varied builds than it is a feeling of "nothing compliments anything else really" and being stuck in a rut of the same ol' same ol'. I mentioned long ago that the Legacy Nat's Set four piece needed to be removed from the game because it was holding back any proper development of our resource spenders vs. damage vs. regeneration, and sure enough, look at where we are.

Again, while Demon Hunters have the most well rounded toolbox, they've still got severe shortcomings in the resource department unless they go "one specific way". Not really fun when I can't diversify because of the design of the skills' costs relative to what they put out (and they put out just fine and don't need a damage boost in most cases, though some tweaks to how they work would be nice), but they do need to not leave me high and dry constantly. Diablo 2 solved that via potion spam, which in reality I'm kind of glad is gone (yet I wish it were still a "niche" capability in some esoteric builds), but since you cannot spam a potion to restore resources (and in fact cannot consume anything to restore resources other than health globes, and only with specific passives), base regeneration needs to be beefed up for most classes (only minorly for Wizards, whose AP goes up faster than any other resource in the game on its own).

Demon Hunters also need the Shadow Power and Gloom nerfs reduced by about 30% (as in 30% of the nerf value, not the total overall value), since Reflects Damage is still killing me even with Gloom up and at least some Life Steal on my weapon. We got an overall 46% nerf to our mitigation in 1.0.5 via the lifesteal reduction and damage reduction via Gloom. The lifesteal isn't the dealbreaker, but it would be nice to get it to 17% instead of 15% as it is now. The massive reduction to Gloom though really hurt and forced us into "lifesteal or bust". Our StatFecta went from IAS/CC/CrDMG to IAS/CC/CrDMG/LS/LoH, with LoH taking the least priority because of...

Full loss of proc coefficients on too many skills. Yeah, those proc coefficients are coming back to bite us in the rear. Remember how you hinted at a dislike for "tanky" DHs? Why is that? Why is a "tanky" DH so admonished and a throw barb not (for the sake of argument here, not for the sake of efficiency). Why can't we make that choice to go ranged when we want and tank when we want? The Amazon in Diablo 2 was primarily a ranged class, but could be played very well at melee range in the hands of the right player, mindset, and gear/stat progression plan. We lost the customization available in Diablo 2's item diversification that even sans allocable skill points allowed for at least some planning, especially of niche builds based on gear. But because of the StatFecta, lack of ability to find own gear thus plan for said gear, and the sheer lack of synergy in how skills complement each other on top of the over the top gutting of so many skills that people liked to use but are now relegated to at best situational use, most players just let out a sigh of dischord and look up whatever build their gear can support and play that since it's most efficient, even if it lacks fun, mobility, or varied tactics.

Have you ever played Final Fantasy VI? I mean the original, not the remakes that got watered down. There were equippable items called Espers. They had a special trait not found anywhere else in the game - bonuses when you leveled up. But in order to get those bonuses when you leveled up, you had to have them equipped at the time of level up. That entailed constant switching in and out, all the while they were also your only source for learning new spells and abilities. So in order to acheive efficiency, you had to sacrifice fun.

Now tell me, doesn't that sound an awful lot like Diablo 3 in its current state?

Take a look at my Demon Hunter, TiaPoacher. My gear set affords me a "so-so" 85k DPS, even though I've tried getting all of the StatFectas I can either afford (since I never find items, see below), or can craft. I got lucky and my Manticore was 700k gold about four months ago. Good price all things considered. But I can't dual wield since it's a massive output loss with nowhere near enough in return to compensate for that loss.

My build? I'm not using it because it's "fun" (it isn't; see Bola Shot complaint above), but it's the most efficient for farming Demonic Essences, which is all I do now, along with farming gold since the crafting costs are so high per item. Remember, solo players that don't flip items on the AH or find godly loot to sell wallow in misery at minimal resources to work with as a whole and thus far it's sucked, bigtime.

I've found five, yes a lovely five set items throughout my entire time in Diablo 3. So after several hundred hours, 889039 Lifetime kills, and 45350 Elite kills, I have a total of five set items, and about four dozen or so Legendary items, almost none of value to me or anybody else to show for it.

Let's break that down: 889039/5 = 177807.8 kills overall per set item.

At 45350/5 = 9070 Elites per set item. Over 9000! (yeah, I went there).

Now I have approximately 50 or so Legendaries for my efforts, not counting the ones I bought and later sold when I finished with them. Let's plug those numbers into the equation shall we?

889039/50 = 17780.78 overall kills per Legendary. This remains virtually unchanged since my tally back when 1.0.5 finally launched in terms of kills per Legendary. That's a 0.000056242969629% drop rate if you're keeping score. For reference, 1/2000, the estimated drop rate per Legendary (mean average) = 0.0005%. I've had a tenfold worse drop ratio vs. what I should get on average. I'd say closing in on 900k kills is a sufficient sample size there. So 1/17780 Legendaries per Elite kill count.

Gee, I'm jumping up and down for joy right now.

And this is what I have to show for trying to be "efficient", instead of "fun".

I could get behind some of your ideas (and probably many of them in fact), but only if the devs finally eliminate the roadblocks to intra- and inter-class synergy so as to make more than two or three builds viable and fun. Without that, it's just the same shell game to a different tune.

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system. The old skill system was fun, back in the day, but I think it’s honestly dated in today’s landscape.

Actually, it lends itself more to the Pet Skill Trees in World of Warcraft than Diablo 2's skill tree system. It works in a way that enhance class centric abilities and tactics, just like those skills in the Pet Talent Trees enhance your chosen pet's specification. In that regard it adds quite a bit of flavor to the game.

I'm going to close with one last comment, since I don't remember it really being hit on in your post Gosu: Run speed's current cap is abysmal. Unless I get a Fleeting Shrine coupled with at least two movement speed increasing items, and in the case of my Monk, Fleet Footed, I feel like I'm a snail moving through frozen molasses in the dead of a Siberian winter. Why is it that Blizzard lets mobs like the Demonic Tremors run across the screen literally in less than 0.3 seconds (with the Extra Fast affix on top of their already bugged speed) and even at our fastest we can't do more than even half that speed?

Snail Male (and Female) indeed. :(

Official Mac Tech Support Forum Cookie™ (Mint Chocolate Chip)
Guaranteed tasty; Potentially volatile when dipped in General Forums Syrup®
Caution: This cookie bites back.
Gonna throw in few more comments on Gosu's ideas.
Any affix that is universally bad has no place in the game. The same thing applies to any affix that is universally good. Unfortunately, all of the examples I gave in my post fall under this category with absolute and irrefutable certainty. The evidence to this fact is literally insurmountable.

Actually the bonus heal from a health globes and potions is not bad stat at all. Irrefutable certainty...

02/28/2013 06:58 PMPosted by Travis Day
Your system idea for Nephalem Power Stat is basically a roundabout way of suggesting we re-implement the Diablo 2 skill system.

Actually after I just read Gosu's clarifications about the Nephalem Power stat and I am actually sold on the idea. The problem is that Gosu's writing is too confusing, so I am going to try and translate with few words what he's trying to explain in a wall of text (please don't try to say you explained it good enough the first time, since even the Game Designer failed to grasp the idea).

Gosu is not trying to re-implement the old Diablo2 skill tree system, he's merely trying to improve the itemization. He wants to remove class specific bonuses, so that certain item can be just as good for multiple classes instead of just one. A simple example can illustrate that.

Say I have a chest with 90Dex, 90Int, 160+Vita, 70+all resistances and +10max discipline. This chest will clearly operate the best on a Demon Hunter.
Gosu want's to replace the +10max discipline with... say 3 points of Nephalem Powers, which each class can spend on something like talent tree.
Say on my demon hunter I spend 2 points on a tallent "Increases Max discipline by 3 per point" and one point on "Increases hatred regeneration by 1.5 per second, per point".
The difference is that I can now use that chest equally on a Demon Hunter, Monk, Wizard and Witch doctor, because each of those classes would be able to distribute the 3 points to class specific bonuses. The result is that an item that was good for a single class is now good for four!
I hope this explains it better.

However, I still find issue with the way Gosu presents his suggestions as well as how he rushes to brand things "useless".
Ah, hope. Constructive conversation about improving the game, accompanied by an actual response from a DEV including promises that future content is on the way. Sniff, so good...

It sounds like, from what Travis was saying, that changes to the crafting system which will allow us to place specific affixes on items in some fashion are on the way. I hope that is true, because it will be awesome and improve the game greatly. Honestly though, there wasn't much more in his post that excited me much.

What this game most desperately needs, in my opinion, is not a change to itemization, or crafting, or some niffty legendarie boots that make me ethereal, or some dyes. Not that all of those changes, if well implemented, wouldn't be great, but what is missing the most, I think, is quite simply MORE STUFF TO DO. This could include things like Gosu's endless dungeon and endless monster power ideas, or his proposed multiplayer/PVP games. Travis only briefly discussed wanting to improve the game's social features, saying nothing specific whatsoever. He did at least say that they are actively trying to make it easier to find like-minded players. That is all we got as far as any of that goes from his post. With that subject in mind, let us consider some things. In D2 we had what bnet used to be, which was great. You could create your own chat channels/games and name them whatever you wanted, and people could join your channel/game based on that name. Meanwhile, you saw what other players looked like as well as their levels in the chat channels, which I always thought was really cool, and not to mention a way of showing off to other players without entering a game with them. We have nothing of the sort in the bnet of our time, and I do not understand why. Trying to locate other players in this game to do specific tasks is like yelling from a lonely mountaintop, and more often than not you will get no response whatsoever, because people don't listen to what is being said in the various chat channels. How is this better than the bnet of old? I would love to hear some kind of answer to this question from blizzard before I die, I really would.

While we are all tossing ideas around, you want to know what I think would be awesome? Too bad, cause here it comes. Feel free to disagree if you like, maybe I am alone in this or perhaps it is somehow not feasible, but PERHAPS, rather than going into a regular game, you could enter a "tavern" game which is a rather large indoor room, maybe with a couple floors, in which up to 10 or maybe 20, whatever, players can be found and in which you might meet and group with these mythical "like-minded players", or in which you could simply talk shop, hang out, whatever. There could be one of the brawler dude in there if people felt like hitting each other a bit as well, not to mention a couple cool npc's inlcuding a bar wench and a bartender you could talk to, stuff like that. Of course you could not attack other players in the regular tavern area. This could provide us with a way to show off our character, meet other players, find party members who want to do what we do be it brawling, uber running, or good ol' group farming, and even maybe a way to trade items without using the AH. Maybe you could even make friends with someone over a nice frothy mug of ale. Thoughts anyone?

I admit, Travis did give Gosu/us a well written and thoughtful response, and I don't want to sound like I am demanding to hear every little detail about what may or may not be coming down the pipe, but I have yet to hear anything from the DEVs about adding endgame/multiplayer/PVP activities to D3 since the addition of the Ubers (which, don't get me wrong, was awesome) that is in any way tangible, and this makes me sad. It leads me to conclude that such things are not likely to happen until, at best, an expansion occurs, and that is a long way away gents. Maybe I am wrong, I certainly hope I am, because as amazingly high end as the combat, graphics, and just overall gameplay of D3 are, the fact that there is nothing worthwhile to do beyond running act III thousands of times is maddening. In regards to D3's gameplay the words clean, smooth, maybe even perfection come to mind. The problem is a severe lack of content in which to enjoy this perfection.

Please sir, I want some more!
I like most of your ideas

But some of them are designed for SC and not HC.

For example,

Monster Power - where each monster killed increase MF/GF% and monster HP/Damage
It's more suited for SC where you can die and continue but for HC, you don't get a second chance

Maybe you should have post more ideas on HC.

But seeing you don't play HC at all
It will be tough for you
Just hope they wont damage the market again. I m not a GAH user , i hope my 10M + ( saving a long time to buy) item but not drop in value too heavy
well, I didn't read at that, but I want to take a shot at what I think is wrong with the game as well. I can't help Blizzard with solutions, I just want to say my part as a long time gamer and Diablo fan (although I no longer play D3 much at all).

- little incentive to play with people in a meaningful and fun way / social atmosphere is...nonexistent?

- itemization does indeed suck. I don't even know why, it's just boring compared to D2

- AH/RMAH / lack of trading, which was another social aspect of D2 that is now lacking

- game is too refined; I mean, they tried to balance it and make it all nice and shiny like WoW, when it's not. I love how the creators of TL said they don't even really think about balance. I want to run fast and teleport everywhere... and have crazy weapons that do crazy things. and perhaps some cows that say "Moo".

- four player limit is a bummer. as blizzard said, it wouldn't work well with the game, but they should have designed it around at least having 6 people.

- no open PVP. PVP sucks... I hate PVP in most games but I rather enjoyed it in D2. I never got "grief'd" (for that love of god that has been exaggerated). most PVP happened in dedicated PVP games where it was fun and pretty imbalanced but that actually made it more fun. you had nothing to lose and it was just a different way to pass time. it also promoted a more social atmosphere

-no runs! there no end in site. you just create a game and kill some monsters. bosses aren't that special.

- QQ
I like most of your ideas

But some of them are designed for SC and not HC.

For example,

Monster Power - where each monster killed increase MF/GF% and monster HP/Damage
It's more suited for SC where you can die and continue but for HC, you don't get a second chance

Maybe you should have post more ideas on HC.

But seeing you don't play HC at all
It will be tough for you

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the vast majority of players pretty much only play SC. Granted, many do enjoy HC and that's cool, but this game seems primarily focused on the SC experience and I think that is what most of us, as well as Blizz, are most concerned about.

Also, I see no reason why his endless MP or endless dungeon ideas could not be played in HC mode as long as you had the options of either never doing them or to simply leave them whenever you wished. Man up bro, get all hard core in there. You could handle it I'm sure, with your bad self and all that.

I highly doubt that there will ever be any kind of HC only content in this game, or any SC only content either for that matter. HC is supposed to be the exact same game with its own AH where if you die you are dead, plain and simple.
+1 to OP,
Blizz please hire this guy, or at least have to him in your group when u make diablo4 !!! current D3 is just hopeless

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum