Old Stats vs New Stats

General Discussion
TL;DR - The changing of the four D3 stats in its original iteration to the current one was one of the many bad early beta changes that took away from the excellence of what D3 could have been.

Back in the Beta, and early design, the four stats were

Attack
Defense
Precision
Vitality

Now they are

Strength
Dexterity
Intelligence
Vitality

They made many changes during that time period, and a lot of them received a ton of feedback with love/hate. But this one got almost no response, which baffles me. Because what I saw was the transformation from a brilliant set of stats to a simplistic uncreative one.

If you don't know how the old ones work, let me briefly explain.

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Attack - gives 1% damage; i.e. it is every class' "primary stat"

Precision - increases crit chance. This can only be done through precision, items don't give cc as a separate stat

Defense - Reduces damage from all sources. This is instead of "armor". The old armor just reduces physical damage, and the resistances were just the five (excluding physical resist).

Vitality - well... y'know
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The brilliant point of the old stats is that all five classes need all four stats. And the balance is heavily dependent on your build and play style.

At first glance, they may not seem that clever. Attack and Precision are your DPS stats, and Defense and Vitality are your EHP stats. So you should just find the optimal Atk-Prc condition for your DPS and Vit-Def condition for your EHP, right?

Well no. The thing is, the optimal DPS condition usually requires way more Attack than Precision. However, builds that depend on procs would want to focus a lot more on precision than the optimal condition dictates. Also, this optimal condition depends on crit damage, and different builds have different crit damages.

Similarly, the optimal EHP condition usually requires a lot more Vit than Def. But classes that depend a lot on flat healing effects, such as LoH, Life Regen, LS, etc, would benefit more from Def than Vit, so they may want to focus more on Def than the optimal EHP condition dictates.

Okay, here's the best part about the old stats. They work perfectly with manual stat allocation! I mean, they take care of all the end game flaws that were present in D2 (i.e. the fact that there's an optimal choice that you have to look up). There really is no optimal choice with these stats, it's very dependent on build/play style. Sure, there are choices that are much better than others. But not objectively.

Manual stat allocation wasn't in the beta, but the old stats make me feel like it was initially supposed to be implemented. They are perfectly designed for manual allocation. Yet, somewhere along the lines, someone said "eh... people might not have fun theorycrafting, so let's get rid of it." Then, since that was already the case, they decided they might as well change to these new stupid stats. It makes me very sad how much better a game this could have been with the old stats.

Anyway, let me know what you think.
Hopefully a good game will come along using the old stat system. Blizz just wanted to increase AH activity by making useful gear really rare.
When Blizzard Irvine, with JW in the lead, took over the scene, they basically canned all the previous work and more or less started from scratch.

-Gone were the dark gothic moody scenery
-Gone were the early cast for WoW-like skill tree ( http://pcgmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/skilltree.jpg ) See the TAB skill? I bet that was weapon switch :))
-Gone were Elemental damage type, with substance and resistances.

And much more.

I somehow get a feeling, when looking back on some of the early plans, that team Irvine and JW, were to proud, to admit that some of it were useful. Instead, they wanted it like their version only. Instead of taking the best of both worlds. Pride is a funny thing sometimes....
That was an interesting read!
When Blizzard Irvine, with JW in the lead, took over the scene, they basically canned all the previous work and more or less started from scratch.

-Gone were the dark gothic moody scenery
-Gone were the early cast for WoW-like skill tree ( http://pcgmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/skilltree.jpg ) See the TAB skill? I bet that was weapon switch :))
-Gone were Elemental damage type, with substance and resistances.

And much more.

I somehow get a feeling, when looking back on some of the early plans, that team Irvine and JW, were to proud, to admit that some of it were useful. Instead, they wanted it like their version only. Instead of taking the best of both worlds. Pride is a funny thing sometimes....


The old stats were designed under the JW team. It was the very same team that later decided to scrap them for the new, more mediocre set of stats.
The point when it went wrong was when they introduced the concept of mainstats, which limits customization. Those old stats would have been appealing for all classes, which would have made a pretty interesting system with a bit more elaboration. Mainstats just make "offstats" undesirable, even more when you already have affixes ingame doing exactly the same thing, more efficiently (AR and armor, funny they didn't include dodge as well).

Imho it would be great if they got rid of the mainstats concept and reintroduce equally appealing stats like those you brought up, even if they remain as str, dex and int. It would also be a great chance to break the boring trifecta paradigm, by allowing core stats to control them, something like int=ias, dex=CC, Str=chd or something like that, although int=ias doesn't really make much sense, but you get the idea.
When Blizzard Irvine, with JW in the lead, took over the scene, they basically canned all the previous work and more or less started from scratch.

-Gone were the dark gothic moody scenery
-Gone were the early cast for WoW-like skill tree ( http://pcgmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/skilltree.jpg ) See the TAB skill? I bet that was weapon switch :))
-Gone were Elemental damage type, with substance and resistances.

And much more.

I somehow get a feeling, when looking back on some of the early plans, that team Irvine and JW, were to proud, to admit that some of it were useful. Instead, they wanted it like their version only. Instead of taking the best of both worlds. Pride is a funny thing sometimes....


The old stats were designed under the JW team. It was the very same team that later decided to scrap them for the new, more mediocre set of stats.


+1
When Blizzard Irvine, with JW in the lead, took over the scene, they basically canned all the previous work and more or less started from scratch.

-Gone were the dark gothic moody scenery
-Gone were the early cast for WoW-like skill tree ( http://pcgmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/skilltree.jpg ) See the TAB skill? I bet that was weapon switch :))
-Gone were Elemental damage type, with substance and resistances.

And much more.

I somehow get a feeling, when looking back on some of the early plans, that team Irvine and JW, were to proud, to admit that some of it were useful. Instead, they wanted it like their version only. Instead of taking the best of both worlds. Pride is a funny thing sometimes....


The old stats were designed under the JW team. It was the very same team that later decided to scrap them for the new, more mediocre set of stats.


Ahh, ok. Didn't know that. Sad that they scrapped that idea then...

03/01/2013 04:36 PMPosted by DeadRu
Actually the jpeg you linked is closer to wow than the current skill system.


Yes it is. It is in my view, a more or less direct transfer, from the skill tree introduced in WoTLK. Which makes sense, since they all at Blizzard worked at WoW, on and off among the teams.
I couldn't fit this in my original post, but I also want to elaborate on why I also think the damage reduction mechanism was far better in the original iteration.

As I said, the "Defense" stat was a source of all damage reduction, instead of Armor as it is now. As it works now, you can reduce all damage from two separate multiplicative sources:

Armor
Resists

The way it worked before, we had

Defense
Armor
Resists

However, this still accounts for two sources of damage reduction for everything, because armor and resists didn't work in parallel as they do now, but rather, resists only covered the five elements (fire, lightning, ice, poison, arcane/holy, not physical) and armor covered physical damage. This paradigm separated physical damage from magic damage, as it is in many RPGs, because obtaining damage reduction for each type is a different kind of endeavour. One could be heavily armored, well protected against physical damage, which is the most abundant damage, but still be vulnerable to magic.

The way it works now only works to make all damage types uniform, to the point where it doesn't make a difference what type of damage you're receiving, and you are no longer compelled to learn the damage types from different locations.

In D2, more than half the players probably knew that Diablo's lightning attack was half physical half lightning. They were obligated to know such a thing, because their physical damage reduction (as obtained by some very rare unique pieces) was different from their lightning damage reduction (as obtained from lightning resist).

In my opinion, the change to the new damage reduction sources, as given by the new stats, is another example of an early design turn towards unnecessary simplicity.
I disagree, simply because there will always be cut offs in any system. And the first one no doubt had them. So there will still be only one right way to gear up your character just as it is now. The only other way around it is to have stat system with a lot of real depth. With man different paths that would be viable.
03/01/2013 07:05 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
I disagree, simply because there will always be cut offs in any system. And the first one no doubt had them. So there will still be only one right way to gear up your character just as it is now. The only other way around it is to have stat system with a lot of real depth. With man different paths that would be viable.


The only reason there are cutoffs to something like Vitality is because death isn't punishing at all in SC. Go to HC and see that different people are actually making different choices for their ratio of primary stat to vitality. It is a balance that suits different people differently, depending on their build, play style, etc. There is no "cutoff" here, as you claim.

With the original set of stats, there is an unbounded benefit for each stat. How can there be such a cutoff with this system?

I could see a cutoff occurring for vitality and defense, leaving people to strike their own balance with attack and precision. However, again, this is a result of the fundamental flaw of SC's severe lack of punishment for death giving people no cause to want to protect themselves against rare but dangerous occurrences. This is another aspect of the game that I think needs fixing (in SC, of course).
are you kidding me? the old one was even worse they wanted to simplify everything just into 4 stats
If the D3 team used Attack/Defense/Precision/Vitality as stats, then most items would be equally transferable between characters. In my opinion, it seems kind of bland but I haven't had the chance to play with it. The system in place now is set up so that not everybody is fighting for, essentially, the same gear.
03/01/2013 09:58 PMPosted by KCGJer
If the D3 team used Attack/Defense/Precision/Vitality as stats, then most items would be equally transferable between characters. In my opinion, it seems kind of bland but I haven't had the chance to play with it. The system in place now is set up so that not everybody is fighting for, essentially, the same gear.


Gear homogenization would be a problem if they took the current iteration of D3 and changed just that one thing. But what you forget is that the way things currently are, the itemization, etc, is built to revolve around the current stat system.

Had they stayed with the original four stats, they would have fashioned itemization to work around that, while avoiding gear homogenization. It means they would have found other ways to make gear more specific to class or build.

I, for one, think they should have put a stronger emphasis on skill bonuses on gear. When they removed itemized runestones (skill runes manifesting in drops rather than already being available on the skill screen), they promised to replace it with skill bonuses in items. But they hardly did that. They made a bunch of pointless skill bonuses (with a few good ones), and the manifestation of such very bland.
03/01/2013 08:37 PMPosted by Bottle
I disagree, simply because there will always be cut offs in any system. And the first one no doubt had them. So there will still be only one right way to gear up your character just as it is now. The only other way around it is to have stat system with a lot of real depth. With man different paths that would be viable.


The only reason there are cutoffs to something like Vitality is because death isn't punishing at all in SC. Go to HC and see that different people are actually making different choices for their ratio of primary stat to vitality. It is a balance that suits different people differently, depending on their build, play style, etc. There is no "cutoff" here, as you claim.

With the original set of stats, there is an unbounded benefit for each stat. How can there be such a cutoff with this system?

I could see a cutoff occurring for vitality and defense, leaving people to strike their own balance with attack and precision. However, again, this is a result of the fundamental flaw of SC's severe lack of punishment for death giving people no cause to want to protect themselves against rare but dangerous occurrences. This is another aspect of the game that I think needs fixing (in SC, of course).


Okay then you are saying that in HC that vitality is so much keen that the players do not have any main stat on their gear at all. Virtually zero IAS, CC, CD on their gear as well. Where they have nothing but all defensive stats stacked to the stars.

Look the gearing is different in HC, I fully understand it. But in reality the cut offs are different. But they still exist. If you have a piece of gear that boost life by 5k but decreases damage by 15k would you put on that piece of gear? If yes then I guess I would see in HC players that have around 750k life, but only 20k dps right.

When I say cut offs I am talking about from a mathematical stand point. There would have to be a limit to how much of one stat you would need in order to survive. It is there that the cut off exists.

There will always be a cut off point in any system of stats. Where that cut off is and how much will be different when consider both SC and HC, classes, and specs.
Simple things to make d3 better.

Merge Int/Str/Dex into "attack" stat. As in the OP.

Precision is crit chance, whatever, same thing.

Remove physical resist. Remove or make extremely rare the "resist all" stat. Buff single resists.

I miss the days of knowing, my amazon has crap for poison resist, beware, or my barb has like 90 fire resist, charge!!
Okay then you are saying that in HC that vitality is so much keen that the players do not have any main stat on their gear at all. Virtually zero IAS, CC, CD on their gear as well. Where they have nothing but all defensive stats stacked to the stars.

Look the gearing is different in HC, I fully understand it. But in reality the cut offs are different. But they still exist. If you have a piece of gear that boost life by 5k but decreases damage by 15k would you put on that piece of gear? If yes then I guess I would see in HC players that have around 750k life, but only 20k dps right.

When I say cut offs I am talking about from a mathematical stand point. There would have to be a limit to how much of one stat you would need in order to survive. It is there that the cut off exists.

There will always be a cut off point in any system of stats. Where that cut off is and how much will be different when consider both SC and HC, classes, and specs.


There cannot be a cutoff from a mathematical standpoint, because that implies objectivity in the requirement of a stat to survive. A mathematical cutoff is an objective threshold. However, how much survivability a person needs in order to live depends on their play style, their build, and how comfortable the individual is. In HC, unlike in SC, you will see different people needing different amounts of survivability for their own comfort. My DH has survived just fine with ~700k EHP, yet you will find people who claim that you require at least 1M EHP on a DH in order to be safe.

In HC, both DPS and EHP are unbounded in their necessity. Just because a person would gladly trade a little bit of life for a lot of DPS, that doesn't mean they're still not constantly seeking to upgrade their life. They would make the trade, but seek an option where both EHP and DPS can take a bump. The necessity for each thing is unbounded, yet the limited resource provided by gear is what forces hand to a difficult choice.
When Blizzard Irvine, with JW in the lead, took over the scene, they basically canned all the previous work and more or less started from scratch.

-Gone were the dark gothic moody scenery
-Gone were the early cast for WoW-like skill tree ( http://pcgmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/skilltree.jpg ) See the TAB skill? I bet that was weapon switch :))
-Gone were Elemental damage type, with substance and resistances.

And much more.

I somehow get a feeling, when looking back on some of the early plans, that team Irvine and JW, were to proud, to admit that some of it were useful. Instead, they wanted it like their version only. Instead of taking the best of both worlds. Pride is a funny thing sometimes....


you do know jw were part of all that don't you?

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