After Playing HOTS...Really? *This* Is How You Boss!

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change the boss fights? really? how about adding some new !@#$ing bosses !!!
03/14/2013 10:07 AMPosted by AMPLIFIED966
change the boss fights? really? how about adding some new !@#$ing bosses !!!


Because just "adding" new bosses does not resolve the underyling issue of the current boss fights. That would be like building a house with a wobbly foundation and a great structure. The house is still gonna wobble.

Fix the foundation, then build up from the success of that.

Currently, the boss's could use a face lift. More innovative mechanics that bring the player into the battle. Forces decision making and eye for detail. Once the current boss fights can capture the attention of the average gamer, the Devs can start building upwards. There is no ceiling but you'll never reach the high heavens if your foundation is naked and broken.
the one thing i miss about WOW are the raid boss fights.

I quit after the burning crusade came out, but i loved doing Molten core.
Make Diablo immune to CC like stun and freeze but not to slow, bleed or blind. Also make his lightning attack worth dodging.
Just finished a mission called 'Supreme'. In the game, on Hard mode, I've had 5 epic boss fights (no spoilers) against awesome, varied and mechanical bosses that really made me appreciate just how good this sort of stuff could be.

And it made me think of Diablo...in a bad way. One of the things that I disliked about the game was just how samey and unoriginal the bosses were mechanically.

Blizzard - why didn't you get *these* guys to work on D3?


Those weren't "Boss" fights. That was one mission and it had a few cool "hero" units you had to kill. It was fun for StarCraft... but was by no means the "Boss" fights you are making them out to. The thread is very misleading... those fights were cool... but not "What Diablo 3 should have been!"... the Diablo 3 boss fights are fine. They are a challenge for low level, no gear characters... but like anything and everything in a Diablo game... they are a cake walk once you get gear. You can't stop that from happening.

Too many WoW players coming over and wanting this game to be that... a replacement for WoW. All this non sense about "finding your own items" .... "hard and difficult content and bosses"... "BoA gear"... non of this was ever in a Diablo game. It's just the nature of the game. Diablo content stays the same and your player gets stronger... I even saw someone suggest that the content difficulty scales with your character level and gear, basically the game would get harder as you got more gear... what is the point in getting gear then ??

I really find it hard to believe that most the people making these types of suggestions played Diablo, mainly Diablo 2, in its prime... not just the "HR and Enigma" days..
The PC version was always meant for console therefore all the fights had to be dumbed down. You can't have complex mechanics on console because you can't control your character the same way as you would with a mouse and keyboard.

Another way to look at it is when are you ever attacking and defending at the same time on console? You're not, you're either attacking OR you're defending. PC enables you to do both = fights can be made more technical.


You were obviously dropped on your head as a child... sorry to be so rash... but this type of logic is just so flawed... this is the only explanation. That or you are like 14 years old.
All bosses should drop better loot than the elite packs and the loot should be specific to that boss. Right now, most people just skip bosses and go for key wardens or restart for more elite packs. This is the only game people prefer to skip bosses lol.
03/14/2013 11:23 AMPosted by Axeecutioner
All bosses should drop better loot than the elite packs and the loot should be specific to that boss. Right now, most people just skip bosses and go for key wardens or restart for more elite packs. This is the only game people prefer to skip bosses lol.


Bosses drop the best loot in the game with 5 NV stacks. The problem is the "quest system" and how acts and waypoints are very limited. If players could make a game, have access to all the acts, all the waypoints, and all the bosses... they would do them. Right now it just takes too much time and effort to farm bosses in a game. That is the issue, not the actual boss fights or the loot. (I have made a lot of gold from Azmodan)
03/13/2013 08:39 PMPosted by Grimiku
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better.

I'm not going to give you any specific examples of mechanics that will be like "OMG this boss is awesome!" but I will tell you this.

The reason why Belial is regarded as one of the best bosses in the game is pretty much all of his attacks are designed to one shot you, but you can avoid them.

Belial is the most fun because only the very beginning of the boss is a gear check. (And of course his enrage mechanic checks your DPS)

The rest of the boss revolves around you as the player avoiding things. Belial is fun because you as the player feel in control of the whole situation. If you die, it's because you did something wrong.

Azmodan attempts to do this with his fireballs. But he hits like a little girl. This is why Azmodan is regarded as one of the easiest bosses.

Diablo is also fun to a degree, but there are still mechanics in the boss fight that you pretty much can't avoid.

What makes a boss fun and engaging boils down to giving the player control of the situation. This is why things like Waller, Jailer, Vortex, and Nightmarish aren't fun, they're just tedious and annoying. The player learns nothing from these encounters.

The same can be said of Fire Chains, Reflect Damage and Plagued. All it is is a stupid gear check to make sure you have enough LoH.

However, some of the most well developed mechanics in game are things like Desecrator (When not paired with Jailer), Arcane Enchanted, and even Frozen to a degree.

If you get caught up in these things it's because you did something stupid. What's fun about these mechanics is they have a small area of effect, but force you to pay attention to what's going on. Sure, they CAN and most certainly WILL be outgeared by those who wish to play something like a WW Tornado Barbarian, but a lot of the fun of playing a class like the Demon Hunter or Wizard is the fantasy that you're not going to get hit.

Currently, the only class that can actually play as a Glass Cannon (And is pretty much forced to anyway) is the Demon Hunter (Possibly the Witch Doctor depending on playstyle). A glass cannon Wizard just simply isn't viable as you can't avoid anything at all.

But for the sake of spouting a ton of rhetoric, that in and of itself is why Belial is the best encounter in game. He can be taken down with less than stellar health and truly makes playing a glass cannon feel like you're actually in control of the game.

If I were to design a fun game, I would do it like that.
I LuL'd are you serious Blizzard? Hey i know why this sc2 game was only 40 bucks. You devs copy + paste the belial fight from every game to the next. THERE WAS AN IDENTICAL BELIAL DUDE IN SC2 HOTS IN THE SAME LEDGE AREA LOL. Trash actiblizzard.. we want north back

edit1 : Just noticed you guys deleted my thread on the devs over at LoL talking heavy on you nubs and calling you out. Haha this game sucks. Need boss fight mechanics u noobs? Go look at PATH OF EXILES piety fight. #L2makegamesuguyssuckdick
Just finished a mission called 'Supreme'. In the game, on Hard mode, I've had 5 epic boss fights (no spoilers) against awesome, varied and mechanical bosses that really made me appreciate just how good this sort of stuff could be.

And it made me think of Diablo...in a bad way. One of the things that I disliked about the game was just how samey and unoriginal the bosses were mechanically.

Blizzard - why didn't you get *these* guys to work on D3?


Those weren't "Boss" fights. That was one mission and it had a few cool "hero" units you had to kill. It was fun for StarCraft... but was by no means the "Boss" fights you are making them out to. The thread is very misleading... those fights were cool... but not "What Diablo 3 should have been!"... the Diablo 3 boss fights are fine. T Yo


that mission wasnt even particularly that challenging (even on brutal)
I LuL'd are you serious Blizzard? Hey i know why this sc2 game was only 40 bucks. You devs copy + paste the belial fight from every game to the next. THERE WAS AN IDENTICAL BELIAL DUDE IN SC2 HOTS IN THE SAME LEDGE AREA LOL. Trash actiblizzard.. we want north back

edit1 : Just noticed you guys deleted my thread on the devs over at LoL talking heavy on you nubs and calling you out. Haha this game sucks. Need boss fight mechanics u noobs? Go look at PATH OF EXILES piety fight. #L2makegamesuguyssuckdick


Or you could, I dunno, give examples of why something is good like a few others in this thread have instead of just saying "LOLNUB L2BOSS from XYZ company".

Me personally, I'd kill to have the enrage timers removed from ALL bosses, but in its place a better AI and more interesting mechanics such as with Belial, that I must pay attention to and avoid or use to my advantage in order to defeat the boss. While Diablo games are hack'n'slash ARPGs, D3's bosses overall are basically gear checks and not skill checks. Bosses are supposed to be smart, you know, because that's how you get to be a boss.

Nothing says "yawn" more than a tank and spank boss.

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03/12/2013 04:34 PMPosted by vexorian
Great. Now we have WoW accounts posting Starcraft 2 reviews in Diablo 3 forums.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA
03/14/2013 12:12 PMPosted by Drothvader
We love some of our boss fights (like Belial, Butcher, and Diablo), but agree that some of them could be better. We’re certainly interested in hearing feedback about what you think could make a boss fight more fun, and would like to hear any examples you may have. The more specific, the better.

I'm not going to give you any specific examples of mechanics that will be like "OMG this boss is awesome!" but I will tell you this.

The reason why Belial is regarded as one of the best bosses in the game is pretty much all of his attacks are designed to one shot you, but you can avoid them.

Belial is the most fun because only the very beginning of the boss is a gear check. (And of course his enrage mechanic checks your DPS)

The rest of the boss revolves around you as the player avoiding things. Belial is fun because you as the player feel in control of the whole situation. If you die, it's because you did something wrong.

Azmodan attempts to do this with his fireballs. But he hits like a little girl. This is why Azmodan is regarded as one of the easiest bosses.

Diablo is also fun to a degree, but there are still mechanics in the boss fight that you pretty much can't avoid.

What makes a boss fun and engaging boils down to giving the player control of the situation. This is why things like Waller, Jailer, Vortex, and Nightmarish aren't fun, they're just tedious and annoying. The player learns nothing from these encounters.

The same can be said of Fire Chains, Reflect Damage and Plagued. All it is is a stupid gear check to make sure you have enough LoH.

However, some of the most well developed mechanics in game are things like Desecrator (When not paired with Jailer), Arcane Enchanted, and even Frozen to a degree.

If you get caught up in these things it's because you did something stupid. What's fun about these mechanics is they have a small area of effect, but force you to pay attention to what's going on. Sure, they CAN and most certainly WILL be outgeared by those who wish to play something like a WW Tornado Barbarian, but a lot of the fun of playing a class like the Demon Hunter or Wizard is the fantasy that you're not going to get hit.

Currently, the only class that can actually play as a Glass Cannon (And is pretty much forced to anyway) is the Demon Hunter (Possibly the Witch Doctor depending on playstyle). A glass cannon Wizard just simply isn't viable as you can't avoid anything at all.

But for the sake of spouting a ton of rhetoric, that in and of itself is why Belial is the best encounter in game. He can be taken down with less than stellar health and truly makes playing a glass cannon feel like you're actually in control of the game.

If I were to design a fun game, I would do it like that.


+1

Before Belial was made easier he was a far more challenging fight that was still doable, so I agree that he is probably the best designed boss fight (the boss character and his lack of convincing lies... not so much).

Waller, nightmarish, vortex, and jailer can be frustrating to many players, but I don't think they should be deleted. If by going with your logic and allowing them to be dodged (and not just using an anti CC ability to get out of the effect) here are a few suggestions:

Nightmarish: Instead of an "on hit proc" it would be an ability. The ground would become dark with wisps of smoke rising (perhaps in the form of spirits or something). Players have a few seconds to get out of the area before shadows burst out of the ground giving your character the Nightmarish CC. Circumference would be slightly larger then desecrator.

Vortex: This would be a bit harder to think of something. Perhaps have the area to be vortexed have a distorted look for a few seconds and then whatever is their is pulled to the elite.

Jailer: Could make this like Diablo's bone prison in which fiery tendrils will show up on the ground and then after while rise up to snatch any player there perhaps dealing a little DOT damage.

Waller: Instead of walls rising out of ground instantly, they could first show cracks in the ground of where they will spawn (perhaps show just a tip of the wall). After a few seconds they will then appear. I also think walls should be able to take hits and that the walls health would scale with difficulty/monster power. Perhaps if player are on top of the emerging walls they are knocked back to either side and take a little bit of damage.

Fire chains, reflect damage and plagued... I'll try adding a suggestion for each as well.

Fire Chains: Instead of being continuously attached to the enemies they could simply become static when they appear and will last for a few seconds. Or make elite shoot out a web of fire chains (like the spiders in act 1/2) which can be dodge but when it hits the ground it becomes a fire chain aoe (same circumference as the web throwing spiders).

Reflect Damage: I think this affix is now fine as it has an activation/deactivation period so players can choose to continue fighting them (thus needing LS/LOH/LR) or wait/retreat for a better time to attack. One other way I can see it is if the monsters spawn circular areas which would show that it's reflect damage. The areas would be static but would then effect all monster in the circle elite or normal enemy. This then allows the player to move back allowing enemies to come out of the circle and attack you without reflect damage.

Plagued: Have the plague pools deal less damage and don't let them stack as that doesn't make sense. Instead, have elite packs periodically spawn plague clouds which would randomly move around during the fight (dissipates after a few seconds) as another smaller aoe which also deals less damage (so if you are in a plague pool and the cloud envelops you, then you can take both amounts of damage).

Just a few random ideas.
Waller, nightmarish, vortex, and jailer can be frustrating to many players, but I don't think they should not be deleted. If by going with your logic and allowing them to be dodged (and not just using an anti CC ability to get out of the effect) here are a few suggestions:

Nightmarish: Instead of an "on hit proc" it would be an ability. The ground would become dark with wisps of smoke rising (perhaps in the form of spirits or something). Players have a few seconds to get out of the area before shadows burst out of the ground giving your character the Nightmarish CC. Circumference would be slightly larger then desecrator.

Vortex: This would be a bit harder to think of something. Perhaps have the area to be vortexed have a distorted look for a few seconds and then whatever is their is pulled to the elite.

Jailer: Could make this like Diablo's bone prison in which fiery tendrils will show up on the ground and then after while rise up to snatch any player there perhaps dealing a little DOT damage.

Waller: Instead of walls rising out of ground instantly, they could first show cracks in the ground of where they will spawn (perhaps show just a tip of the wall). After a few seconds they will then appear. I also think walls should be able to take hits and that the walls health would scale with difficulty/monster power. Perhaps if player are on top of the emerging walls they are knocked back to either side and take a little bit of damage.

Fire chains, reflect damage and plagued... I'll try adding a suggestion for each as well.

Fire Chains: Instead of being continuously attached to the enemies they could simply become static when they appear and will last for a few seconds. Or make elite shoot out a web of fire chains (like the spiders in act 1/2) which can be dodge but when it hits the ground it becomes a fire chain aoe (same circumference as the web throwing spiders).

Reflect Damage: I think this affix is now fine as it has an activation/deactivation period so players can choose to continue fighting them (thus needing LS/LOH/LR) or wait/retreat for a better time to attack. One other way I can see it is if the monsters spawn circular areas which would show that it's reflect damage. The areas would be static but would then effect all monster in the circle elite or normal enemy. This then allows the player to move back allowing enemies to come out of the circle and attack you without reflect damage.

Plagued: Have the plague pools deal less damage and don't let them stack as that doesn't make sense. Instead, have elite packs periodically spawn plague clouds which would randomly move around during the fight (dissipates after a few seconds) as another smaller aoe which also deals less damage (so if you are in a plague pool and the cloud envelops you, then you can take both amounts of damage).

Just a few random ideas.

I wasn't saying they should just outright be deleted. However, the examples you gave are perfect for explaining how to give the player some semblance of control over the situation.

The affixes should be there to encourage you to pay attention, but not just be frustrating gear checks. So what if a player wants to play a truly glass cannon build. Let them. They'll still need the skill to pull it off.

That's the thing though, it's more fun when it boils down to skill.

I hate when people say stupid stuff like "You're lying when you say you can survive MP10" where it should be "Wow, upload some videos of how you play dude!"
Me personally, I'd kill to have the enrage timers removed from ALL bosses, but in its place a better AI and more interesting mechanics such as with Belial, that I must pay attention to and avoid or use to my advantage in order to defeat the boss. While Diablo games are hack'n'slash ARPGs, D3's bosses overall are basically gear checks and not skill checks. Bosses are supposed to be smart, you know, because that's how you get to be a boss.

Nothing says "yawn" more than a tank and spank boss.


Agreed.

If players want to take as much as they want on a boss let them. But make that reason not only be their gear but the fact that the boss is super challenging.

Enrage timers was a bad idea to begin with as it begs the question on why the bosses didn't enrage in the first place. Belial was really well done because of the lack of room in the boss area and the way Belial uses that to his advantage whether it's swarming you with adds (phase 1), chasing you down himself with adds (phase 2) or crushing you with his fists and poisonous meteors (phase 3).
Waller, nightmarish, vortex, and jailer can be frustrating to many players, but I don't think they should not be deleted. If by going with your logic and allowing them to be dodged (and not just using an anti CC ability to get out of the effect) here are a few suggestions:

Nightmarish: Instead of an "on hit proc" it would be an ability. The ground would become dark with wisps of smoke rising (perhaps in the form of spirits or something). Players have a few seconds to get out of the area before shadows burst out of the ground giving your character the Nightmarish CC. Circumference would be slightly larger then desecrator.

Vortex: This would be a bit harder to think of something. Perhaps have the area to be vortexed have a distorted look for a few seconds and then whatever is their is pulled to the elite.

Jailer: Could make this like Diablo's bone prison in which fiery tendrils will show up on the ground and then after while rise up to snatch any player there perhaps dealing a little DOT damage.

Waller: Instead of walls rising out of ground instantly, they could first show cracks in the ground of where they will spawn (perhaps show just a tip of the wall). After a few seconds they will then appear. I also think walls should be able to take hits and that the walls health would scale with difficulty/monster power. Perhaps if player are on top of the emerging walls they are knocked back to either side and take a little bit of damage.

Fire chains, reflect damage and plagued... I'll try adding a suggestion for each as well.

Fire Chains: Instead of being continuously attached to the enemies they could simply become static when they appear and will last for a few seconds. Or make elite shoot out a web of fire chains (like the spiders in act 1/2) which can be dodge but when it hits the ground it becomes a fire chain aoe (same circumference as the web throwing spiders).

Reflect Damage: I think this affix is now fine as it has an activation/deactivation period so players can choose to continue fighting them (thus needing LS/LOH/LR) or wait/retreat for a better time to attack. One other way I can see it is if the monsters spawn circular areas which would show that it's reflect damage. The areas would be static but would then effect all monster in the circle elite or normal enemy. This then allows the player to move back allowing enemies to come out of the circle and attack you without reflect damage.

Plagued: Have the plague pools deal less damage and don't let them stack as that doesn't make sense. Instead, have elite packs periodically spawn plague clouds which would randomly move around during the fight (dissipates after a few seconds) as another smaller aoe which also deals less damage (so if you are in a plague pool and the cloud envelops you, then you can take both amounts of damage).

Just a few random ideas.

I wasn't saying they should just outright be deleted. However, the examples you gave are perfect for explaining how to give the player some semblance of control over the situation.

The affixes should be there to encourage you to pay attention, but not just be frustrating gear checks. So what if a player wants to play a truly glass cannon build. Let them. They'll still need the skill to pull it off.

That's the thing though, it's more fun when it boils down to skill.

I hate when people say stupid stuff like "You're lying when you say you can survive MP10" where it should be "Wow, upload some videos of how you play dude!"


Yea in some ways elites and their affixes are another reason why the price on items via the AH are so high because the way those affixes are made demands the player to have good damage and good defense to kill the elite quickly in order to take less overall damage and the defense to sustain any damage that they do take.

I would say that affixes like arcane sentry, frozen, and desecrator add to the intensity of the fight. I remember fighting 2 blue elite packs with both frozen and the entire map producing frozen explosions which I had to avoid less I be CC'd and probably die due to that result.

If such affixes were changed to force the player to actually move rather then tank (tanking can be an option of course) then perhaps we'd see less bots as the game would be more revolved around skill then just getting the minimal gear to farm the desired mp level.
If I had one complaint about the Diablo boss fight. It would be the bone cage attack. It's far too strong, and once you're trapped, you can attack it to get out. Other than that, it's actually not that bad, provided you know what you're doing.

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