Ultimate Skorn vs DW Challenge Gentlemen?

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Sure.. I will need some guidance from Death as far as gearing for Hota is concerned, but a basic outline w/o listing specific stats. Keep in mind some of the gearing choices im think of would be specifically just for ubers and probably wouldnt translate well into PvE (im not well versed in the art of skorn using and hota/rend, but im thinking of only using 12%ms for our hota gear. this is because we arent going for speed farming, just single targets. again im not sure if this idea is viable. i would need Death to weigh in on that. However, if we can pull this off for hota/rend we will be able to stack high stat non-ms ice climbers). Also, this is just a blueprint more than anything and until i physically go on the ah to make purchases, nothing is final. I also have a question regarding the one set policy you've implemented. With this shared set, are we able to have multiple items for one slot? For instance, say I want to use something specific for a ww spec, can there also be an item we can switch out for something that is specific for hota? Or are we limited to having 13 items in total and that is all? Are we restricted to just using buyouts, or can we win items via open bids?

Helm: Mempo
Shoulders: maybe a pair of decent vile wards (significantly dropped in price due to patch) or rare shoulders with 400-450 total stats
Ammy: avg dmg, str, 9cc, 50cd minimum.
Ring: unity or wailing host for +elite dmg %.
Ring: SOJ (absolute must)
Boots: either ice climbers or high stat ik boots. (this goes back to the extra piece of gear question)
Chest: IK most likely 150str/150vit 800 armor (could easily be picked up for 50m)
Pants: either innas or rare pants (this goes back to the extra piece of gear question)
Gloves: trifectas
Skorn: this is where Death would come in. i have no knowledge on the skorn market.
Belt: most likely WH. even though im not too familiar with skorn, im sure Death would approve of using a skorn with ls. his is the advantage
Bracers: most likely go with lacunis for the obvious ias. however, to aid in the lose of ar by choosing WH over ik belt, main stat should be ar on lacunis.

EDIT: like i said im not too familiar with 2H and hota/rend but i will do my best and with the help and knowledge of Death, i think we'll do just fine. These are the times i wish i was familiar with hota/rend cause if i were gearing a 1b barb to solo mp10 with 1B, that's easy :)

The key to this challenge will be to stack the ias necessary for skorn to be viable on single targets for ww and being able to permawrath.
@ Nived

Thanks for that mate, that was great :). Personally I have 24% MS but you're right, this is mainly for PvE whereas this challenge is specifically for the Ubers and so, in the terms of this challenge, putting those funds into another area may prove to be more efficient.

The only limitation in terms of the purchase of gear is the 1B limit. How many items and how they are purchased will be totally up to you. One of the reasons I am leaning towards a 1B budget is to allow you to create a flexible build and so multiple items for different circumstances makes sense. This would have to be weighed against the option of minimising the number of items purchased and concentrating on increasing the quality of the smaller number of items. On purchase though, we would need to figure out some way to do a screenshot or something to confirm the purchase price and thus ensure the 1B limit is maintained.

If you would like to do some testing yourself mate, I have a spare Skorn you can borrow. Let me know. I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to either setup and it will be up to the teams to maximise their builds accordingly. It will be interesting to see which team does this best. Hopefully Pho will agree to join us, it will be fun :)
If I am allowed to chose my teammate, I would select Chazhang. Although my name might be more recognizable on these boards, Chaz is well recognized on reddit, he is very professional, knowledgeable, and can contribute an immense amount to this challenge. Also, after watching Chaz's video's I believe him to be a better player than myself....but I am up for some friendly competition.
Hi Wayneold

Done, though I note that your modesty suits you well Sir. It would be excellent to have Chazhang involved if he is agreeable to this. Team Dual Wield consists now of Wayneold and Chazhang. We still need a Gearer for your team. I still hold hopes for Pho despite his reluctance. If he chooses not to take part, and certainly I would respect that decision and hope he still visits and shares with us his knowledge as he sees fit, I was wondering if you were still in contact with Uberjager. If Pho decides not to join up, then perhaps Uberjager could fulfill this role, or if either Pho is kind enough to join our excercise or you can think of someone more suited to this role, it would still be nice to have his involvement as, perhaps, an expert commentator. Kinda like a Sir David Attenborough for our challenge :)
03/28/2013 07:50 AMPosted by Death
OK well firstly for a Skorn user yes IAS is important but not to the point where it needs to be on every piece of gear you get it on. You ideally want to end up around 1.4 APS or better if budget permits.

yea for the excess of ias, i was mainly referencing how as a skorn user, u need quite a bit for ww in order to permawrath on single target. However, now that i think about it, this may very well turn out to be a pure Hota/Rend team rather than skorn in general. I hope we can all agree that Hota is superior to ww for ubers. Unless one of my comrades wants to go into the fight with a hand tied behind their back and opt for WW with a skorn, we probably wont need as much ias on gear. At least not as much as we will need ehp and defenses, like Death mentioned.
Any other potential volunteers? Pri, Silverfire?

Thanks again to everyone for their support and interest. Have fun!!!! :)

I'd love to be involved in any way possible as time permits.

P.S. what would I get with 1B for ubering purposes? Something pretty close to what I have now :)...a gearing/AH expert might be able to do better.

And of course everything Death says is spot on.

03/28/2013 08:07 AMPosted by Nived
I hope we can all agree that Hota is superior to ww for ubers. Unless one of my comrades wants to go into the fight with a hand tied behind their back and opt for WW with a skorn

Good thing Wayneold isn't on team Skorn or he would :) I believe someone like him can make it work, but I also wouldn't expect it to be optimal.
03/28/2013 08:48 AMPosted by Death
@ Nived this is a skorn vs dual wield setup if you are planning on not using skorn for my team kindly remove me from the skorn team.


i said nothing about not using skorn. i said that anyone using WW over Hota/Rend with a Skorn for single target ubers would only be doing themselves a disservice.
It's actually better to have IAS for Skorn Barbarian with a limited budget. The main reason is generally the lack of high-quality items you can slot. The less critical hit damage you can stack, the harder it is to generate enough damage without some attack speed to compensate for it -- conversely, this applies to Thrive on Chaos as well -- you won't have the budge of an elite Skorn Barbarian, but you can stack attack speed to generate fury a little more easily. I wouldn't recommend a Skorn with an attack speed modifier though. I'd get the attack speed elsewhere and just try and aim for the highest damage range you can get on the Skorn.

Hope that helps.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, 2 four man teams with a budget of 1bil each will compete for fastest mp10 uber kills....I'm gonna keep some popcorn handy.

I'm really interested to see 8 individual barbs all geared out for mp10 ubers with only 250mil each....that would be an AWESOME feat.

GL to all participants.
03/28/2013 11:44 AMPosted by acrimonious
I'd get the attack speed elsewhere and just try and aim for the highest damage range you can get on the Skorn.

This should be helpful.The highest damage range Skorn will benefit with other gear.
have been watching this thread for a while, I can't help but really want to bring this up. The good will behind this is to make it educational for all barbs, then why limiting it to the most well-known and well-spread builds? Likely, given the current rules, this is going to be a HoTA build contest between DW and skorn since the measurement of excellence is killing efficiency, and we all know HoTA has the highest efficiency in killing ubers; and these gentlemen invited could not share less of their insight on those builds / gears on this forum, if one just search this forum their knowledge pops up all over the place.

I would like to see some really new insights to different skills / gears, not for efficiency's shake, but just what else can be functional; remember a player that post a functional thorn build few days back? it creates some hype as we are all got bored with these specs that has been beaten to death, we all crave for something fresh and new, just for fun.

I personally think there is not much to see with 2 well know spec and a capped 1 bil budget, and the set is built for specifically ubers. Mix it up, no winner, no losing team, no restrictions on builds and items, throw it out there for fun.

if you want to enforce rules, here is some change that might help:
- remove skorn / dw restriction
- give unpopular choices weighted scores, if a build includes some unpopular choice, either skill or item, weight it accordingly
- spice up the challenge, throw in an extra round of team A and team B swap their items, cannot swap more than half of their slots and cannot be less than 3 slots, and do the same contest, it will show how flexible the build could be, a very important aspect in gearing up, upgrades / regearing that requires lots of changes are just bad
@ Death

I think that is the single best summary of a Skorn Hota Barbarian I have read Sir. So glad to have you on the team mate. Your assessment a I think is spot on and eloquently made. I've watched your videos a number of times to help me through the Ubers. Not being a particularly skilful player, I compensate by just getting nice gear :). Do you think, with your limited budget, you will need to modify your play style from the videos? Also, we will need anSecond for your team. Do you have someone who you think would be suitable for this role.

@ Death, Nived and Wayneold

It is becoming more apparent that a Hota/Rend build seems to be the most efficient Über killing style and as a few people have kindly pointed out, watching six vids of players using the same technique is probably not everyone waters to see. I'd also like the eventual sets to be useful to the general community and thus allow flexibility of build. Hence I am going to enforce a rule that was previously alluded to. The Champion and his second are required to use different skill sets. 2 of the passives and 2 of the skills are pretty ubiquitous. So I am not sure whether to:

1. Require that 3 of the remaining 5 skills/passives be different
2. Require the use of WW in one of the two players

I am leaning towards the second. The third fighter, sourced from the community, can use whatever skills they se fit.

@ Samuiotoko

Thanks for your comments, your concerns are very valid. I am also considering a follow up challenge, open to all, involving teams of 4 barbarians each of a different build. This should also be a very interesting exercise and introduce a lot of variety, but will be for another day.

I note that many of the forum posts are about advice for gearing. I've read Nubtro's excellent research, Uberjagers article on gearing, Wayneolds guides to gameplay and PhatPhoEaters analysis of the WW build and learned a lot. What I am hoping to see here is how our more well renowned players actually use this knowledge, second nature to them, and actually apply it and the thought processes behind this.
@ Silverfire

Thanks for your support mate. Personally I couldn't come close to killing the Ubers with a limited budget, nowhere near skilful enough. As I've said before, you have a beautifully balanced Barb and actually fulfill all the criteria that Death discusses above, which I thought was excellent.

I was wondering, as a player working with a similar gear set to what we are talking about, the issues as you have experienced them? Thoughts from you too Anwin? And how about comments from similarly specced DW Barbarians who have completed the MP10 Ubers solo?
I plan on using WW with both Rend and Revenge/berzerker Rage for this challenge....I want to see which is faster....
@ Silverfire

Thanks for your support mate. Personally I couldn't come close to killing the Ubers with a limited budget, nowhere near skilful enough. As I've said before, you have a beautifully balanced Barb and actually fulfill all the criteria that Death discusses above, which I thought was excellent.

I was wondering, as a player working with a similar gear set to what we are talking about, the issues as you have experienced them? Thoughts from you too Anwin? And how about comments from similarly specced DW Barbarians who have completed the MP10 Ubers solo?

With my current gear I have no issues at all. Up until a week or two ago I was doing lobby uber carries daily, and have a friends list full of customers that can vouch that I do them smoothly and efficiently. (Obviously not as quickly as the likes of Death)

Have I had trouble with them in the past? Absolutely. The first time I tried to solo them, I attempted MP9 with gear much cheaper and weaker than my current set, but not that far off in terms of the hard numbers, and got completely wrecked. I was at around 85k diabloprogress unbuffed, very low, but strictly speaking sufficient to beat the enrages on MP9.

Then I added a SoJ and some other upgrades, backed down to MP8 and still stuggled. I remember failing on MP8 and having to ask a friend to bail me out, and then doing it pretty easily in MP9 with the exact same gear, but just changing my build and technique slightly. I had plenty of failed attempts in MP10 as well. It took slight adjustments in gear to bring it from borderline impossible, to feasible, to easy. One of Joch's youtube videos really made it click for me. At the time, his was the only one of a Skorn barb I could find, and it was done really well.

I've seen a lot of people with much better gear than mine express having a lot of difficulty, and I've also seen videos of people with gear much worse than mine do them successfully, to the point where I could hardly believe my eyes. Technique and practice are pretty important until you have really godly gear like yours. (At least I'd imagine...I have no idea how gear like that feels to play, I'd figure it must be pretty fun :)) On the flip side, they definitely have a high gear requirement in terms of balance between damage output and survivability that you can't really break no matter how good your technique is. Some things like siegebreaker picking you up in the middle of two of kulle's tornadoes while kulle rains his rocks on you are practically unavoidable, and you have to be geared to deal with them if you want to have a perfect success rate. Even wayneold struggled to make it happen on a tight budget, but I think success would've been within his reach with slightly more time and a slight bump to the budget.
@ Wayneold

Excellent. It will be great to see you in action :). Any others thoughts you've had mate? Are you happy with everything so far?

Oh, something else. Winning team keeps BOTH sets and distributes as the see fit :)

@ Silverfire

Thanks mate. That was really well written. Me personally, I'm totally unco :). Took me ages to kill the MP10 Ubers with pretty good gear. But yes, watching Wayenold and Death in action, I learnt a lot. And bought some more gear :). So now it's not so bad.
Well, uber fights got a lot easier in 1.0.7 when WotB started granting immunity to Kulle's bubbles. There still the potential of dying to unlucky combinations of pickups, rocks and tornadoes, unless you were to stack extra EHP specifically for those situations. I think maybe that's where Chaz's time trialing methodology might be useful,

Personally, I'm interested in some of the following:

- IAS skorn vs lifesteal skorn (and witching hour)
- mace + EF vs sword + EF

Both of the above have interesting tradeoffs in terms of ease of WotB upkeep, DPS and cost.

Some additional thoughts:

- it will be interesting to see how low of an APS you can get away with for sustaining WotB, at which point you can stack other offensive stats
- you could probably classify different attacks from the ubers in terms of how much damage they do, and figure out which specific ones you need to avoid/sidestep, you might be able to get away with much less EHP
- whether you can swap gear around can make a huge difference. I once did an uber run with a cheap 8 mil skorn (no-LS) while swapping to a lower DPS LS skorn for siegebreaker. SImilarly you can always go a bit more glass cannon vs Ghom/Rak for faster times. The lower the budget, the more useful it is to have a few swappable pieces available for stuff like this.
@ Wayneold

I was hoping we would have your Gearer on board by now so we could start proper discussions about the Dual Wield build but alas this is not the case. I guess we've only been at this for a couple of days. In the mean time however it would be nice to hear some commentary from you, you have been mysteriously quiet since the first day. Death above has provided us with an excellent summary regarding the strengths of his weapon of choice, almost like a Warcry, I found it quite stirring :). would you care to enlighten us with your thoughts as to the superiority of Dual Weilding when you have a moment.

Also, I see that you are still only wearing those lovely spectrums. Let me know if Ia can loan you some gear to warm up with mate.

@ zylog

There are a lot of complaints about this game, but this is one of the fascinating areas of it. So many different combinations and permutations available that totally change the nature of your character. We're going to see how the experts do it :).

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