Rare Wands' Max AP Fixed Roll Should Be Removed

Items and Crafting
03/29/2013 01:36 PMPosted by semiXform
Just funny that WitchDoctors Knives don't come with +30 mana, Barb mighty weapons with +5 max fury, DH Crossbows +2 disciplin, and Monk Fist weapons +10 spirit.


and i agree 100%
Thanks for the support! :)
Disagree. The only reason people go along with the idea is the fact that the predominate builds in the current metagame don't need +max AP. The current builds rely on APoC, Thus, you want APoC instead of +max ap.

However, if you ever play with a good old arcane builder/arcane spender build, +max AP is a godsend.(i.e. LL/Meteor, -10 cost and +20 max ap on gear = 3 meteors before you have to regen AP) Down the line, many of these other builds that rely more on +max AP may be brought up to par in terms of balance, and your +max AP will be useful again. If you fixed APoC as a stat on current wands, you'd be digging the APoC builds even deeper into the 'everyone must have' category, which will be against build diversity in the long run. Also, weapons are one of the last remaining slots where you have actual choices in terms of which stats you can take.

And if you're comparing wizards to barbs... Consider that a huge part of barb power is from the fact that Into the Fray = Free APoC. Thus, It'd be more logical to simply add APoC to Astral presence. It would make some of the heavy-duty arcane spending builds viable if you could reach 40apoc, at the cost of lower dps/survivability from having to get APoC on 3pieces of gear + a passive.
@Atomize: You completely jumped over the main argument (a simple removal of +Max AP as a fixed roll) straight to the "at the very least, do this" argument. With a true 6 random rolls, you would still be able to get +Max AP if you want it; or you could forego both Max AP and APoC if you want a wand that is truly competitive with non-class specific weapons for weapon damage. There is a choice with 6 random rolls. Every other class has the choice. Don't force other Wizard players to suffer because you want to cling to +Max AP.

Arcane Builder/Arcane Spender builds are horribly inefficient. Balancing out some of the disparity between Wizards and other classes (for build diversity) also requires more than just this fix to wands. It also requires increased mobility for Wizards. For this, drastically reduced or removed cooldowns on Teleport, and/or the addition of more mobility skills to Wizards, are required. I'm not even going to count the Storm Armor rune, Scramble. Scramble is frustratingly useless because (1) it relies on being hit to trigger, (2) the 3 second movement speed buff is not worth the life loss and time loss of waiting for something to hit you, and (3) grabbing a single piece of loot wastes the entire 3 second buffed move speed duration.

I designed a nearly complete list of skill changes during the PTR of 1.0.7 to fix many issues from that end and it either fell on deaf ears or was otherwise not implemented by the Development Team. One change, that was not among those suggestions, that I would find beneficial, is to make Meteor Shower "smart target". This "smart targeting" makes the 7 smaller meteors target up to 7 different targets within the blast zone, but, if there are less than 7 targets, it will disperse the 7 strikes among however many targets are within the blast zone (up to all 7 strikes hitting a single target). How cool does that sound? I think I'll make a separate post for that right now.

This argument (the removal of the +Max AP fixed roll) is a glaring detriment that no other class suffers. As such, I feel it should certainly make sense to remove it.

As for the last portion of your post, I compared Wands to Mighty Weapons, Ceremonial Knives, Fist Weapons & Daibos, and Hand Crossbows. I would be in favor of changing Astral Presence to APoC instead of the worthless +2 AP/sec generation. However, if you want to compare skill diversity to skill diversity, you're only looking at one popular skill used by Barbarians to generate Fury. You will see a new Barbarian build when its creator is ready to share it. It is not my build to release.
04/01/2013 07:57 PMPosted by Mike
Arcane Builder/Arcane Spender builds are horribly inefficient.

Yes, but by buffing the current BiS builds, you're making this even moreso the case, and are making it a harder problem to fix.

As far as meteor goes, I replied to your other thread. The damage for meteor is balanced around the fact that it sprays all over the place. By 'smart targetting', you're just basically buffing damage, and the dev team would have to bring all the other meteors back into line if you changed it.

On the topic of comparing wands to the passives of other classes, you have to remember that those eat up a passives slot. Being able to get a 'Free' very powerful stat(APoC) on your mainhand, while other classes are forced to use passives/runes, seems out of line.

As far as builds without Into the fray, I'll bet my arguement will hold find regardless of what fringe builds get brought up. Into the fray is much like APoC... you don't need either of them, but the majority will use them due to their power. Various blizzard or archon builds get along fine without APoC, but it's still arguably the most powerful stat in the game for wizards right now. A new barb build isn't going to change this paradigm any time soon.
@Atomize: 6 Property Wands Do Not "Buff" Archon or CM Freeze
Higher damage would still be available on swords for Archon builds, this just evens the playing field when it comes to searching for viable weapons to what every other class has (thus there's no "buff" to Archon builds through removing the fixed +Max AP roll).

CM Freeze:
Even a perfectly rolled rare wand with damage, attack speed, life steal, critical hit damage, APoC, and a socket doesn't beat Chantodo's Will for damage. It simply alters some gear choices depending on which you choose. You would gain Life Steal at the cost of substantial damage reduction and EHP because the rare wand requires more IAS from gear. The trade-off might be worth it, it might not. It would make a CM wizard significantly more likely to die to burst damage, but far less likely to die to damage over time or normal attacks.

Changing Astral Presence to APoC Instead of AP Regen Does Not Solve the Problem With Wands
I do agree with your suggestion of changing Astral Presence to APoC instead of +2 AP Regeneration. I believe that change would make Astral Presence far more appealing as a skill choice I am a little confused as to how can you suggest this (less of an issue than the fixed +Max AP roll) and stand so against allowing wands to roll a true 6 properties. They both simply open up skill diversity.

Meteor Shower Idea:
I responded in the other thread and will discontinue reference to it here.

In Re: APoC vs Other Classes' Passives:
I tried to draw the conversation back to Wands vs other classes' class specific weapons and you've chosen to continue with this anyway. It's not just passives that power resource management. Items and other active skills are frequently used by other classes to effectively manage resources. Sacrificing item rolls, and gear options, for APoC is also costly. At least 2 pieces are required to even attempt a heavy AP-spending build.
Barbarians: Fully integrated Fury on Hit and Fury on being Hit system. Into the Fray gives more than enough Fury generation from this one skill. It also grants increased damage. I will leave the rest out for now, but there are others that are viable for different reasons.
Demon Hunters: Night Stalker - pretty similar to APoC just scaled to Discipline. Combine it with Punishment to power virtually unlimited Hatred or Perfectionist for increased survivability. Plenty of other options are available, including Bat, Night Bane, heavy hitting primary attacks like Bola Shot, and even item affixes.
Monks: Fists of Thunder is a spirit generator. If you eat through all spirit generated from FoT, there are passives and item mods to increase generation and regeneration.
Witch Doctors: 0dogs can be used to generate Mana; Widowmakers are good for it; Haunt-Draining Spirit; a myriad of passives and other skills. There are passives and item mods to increase regeneration.

-I agree that "regeneration" is not as strong as "generation" (APoC is a "generator"), but resource "generation" skills for other classes are more powerful than Wizard Primary Skills (due to their damage output because of how the skills operate or because of substantially stronger damage buffs).

Edit complete.
WOW!!! I hope you know this game is NOT about handouts.... Its about RNG, do not put apoc a "fixed" roll (if this is the case thennnn EVERY fist weapon should have 2 Spirit regen period. Every mighty weapon should also give barbs 1 fury regen/sec and crossbows should get 1 or 2 disc regen on every bow.)


Ya I read the first 2 lines and obviously you know nothing about balance. You cant just give the best stat possible for you class to be a "fixed" roll on all of your weapons.

You make no sense bro!
@Smotpoker: You jumped the main argument (removal of the fixed +Max AP property) and went to the "at the very least, do this" argument. I am fully aware of balance. You simply showed that you did not read my post and skimmed it for something to react harshly to. "OMG WIZ HAZ APoC - OP!" is not a valid argument, as I've already explained. Stop trolling.
I support this movement. Removing +Max AP fixed and making the 6th affix random would make it benefit every wizard. The option is fine, but +Max AP shouldn't be a fixed stat. I've actually thought about this before.


Also in favor of adding APoC to Astral Presence, would be great for gearing options.
@FredSavage: Thanks for the support! :)

I realize you have good intentions, however...

Even a perfectly rolled rare wand with damage, attack speed, life steal, critical hit damage, APoC, and a socket doesn't beat Chantodo's Will for damage.

How many of the top 10 dps wizards in the world use a chantodo wand? I'll provide a link so you - or anyone else - can look.

@Atomize: Did you miss the header for where I made that statement ("CM Freeze:")?

The stats for a rare wand that players would want for heavy sheet dps are the same as on a rare sword, axe, or mace.
@Guybrush: Here's why that statement is not accurate (and Wizard Wands are gimped in a way that other Class Specific Weapons are not [by having a fixed, consumed roll of +Max AP]):

Your response on WD's ceremonial knives pretty much proved my case there. If I have to try and make up for a defect in my weapon, it's got a problem, and unfortunately, it comes with no other bonuses to make the choice reasonable. Sure, I could waste an affix for the mana regen, but assuming I have mana regen anywhere else I'd be better off just dropping to a 1.2 weapon which would help with mana even more than the affix would AND get an extra affix in the process.

For Mighty weapons, if you're under geared they can be a decent (though never great) choice. I honestly don't understand what you mean by weapon master turning axes/maces/hammers into mighty weapons. Firstly, they get far more damage from the 10% then anything else you could possibly do. Secondly, sure the 10% CC gives an indirect increased fury per swing similar to mighty weapons... But only similar to mighty weapons if you're also using that mastery. Long story short weapon mastery just gives far more damage with maces/axes and if you're reasonably geared, you can perma-spam hota anyway, now with much more damage. In fact, for HotA builds skorn may be the ideal weapon again.

Already agree with you on monk fists. And no, daibos/staves are not equivilant. Daibos come with monk only affects that should be nice, and the monk actually has skills that benefit more from two handers, even a passive based on it, but can't use their class specific weapon without totally gimping themselves.

Those two images of pretty much perfect xbows? Those prove my point. Take those, now look at a well rolled manticore. Not even perfect, and it still wins. Take those, take a look at calamity. Doesn't have the marked for death that calamity does, calamity wins, though also loses to manticore.

Currently the only class you'll see using a rare version of their class specific weapon with any reasonable basis are monks, and barbarian offhands. DHs and WDs are CERTAINLY screwed as badly as Wizards are, and Monks daibos are worse than any other, though two handed mighty weapons suck too.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this affix needs removing, but it's not like it's a wizard specific problem.
@Guybrush: Thank you for agreeing that the fixed +Max AP roll needs to be removed. The Wizard specific problem I was referring to was just the fact that it had a fixed, consumed roll. The other discussion is sort of related, because it serves to justify some reason for each class to use their class-specific weapons as a competitive MP10 weapon.

Witch Doctor Ceremonial Knives
I see what you're saying regarding Mana management, but it looks to be combatable:
This is at 2.55 APS.
I haven't really played with it very much. Insert anything else you want for the remaining skill slots. Get creative.

Barbarian Mighty Weapons
My comment was that Weapons Master sort of turns Maces and Axes into Barbarians Class Weapons, not that they become Mighty Weapons. I intended this comment to imply that the buff from Weapons Master for Maces and Axes is so good that most Barbarians currently use either a Mace or an Axe as their weapon (or in their main hand if they dual wield). As for the Mighty Weapon for HotA example, basically the idea is to increase Critical Hit Chance of HotA by maintaining higher/maximum Fury to gain damage and resource management that way.

Monk Daibos:
Possible Rare Daibo 1 (just not sure if the Dex roll can go higher on a single roll): http://d3up.com/i/6990082
Possible Rare Daibo 2 (TR Crit Chance): http://d3up.com/i/6990776
Possible Rare Daibo 3 (Bells Crit Chance): http://d3up.com/i/6990893
Skorn goes up to 1476 dps and 340 Dexterity (plus the bleed mod). So, yes, the Skorn is better unless one of the rolls on the Rare Daibo is better as a class specific bonus (like Tempest Rush or Wave of Light critical hit chance). Perhaps keeping the 300 Dex roll instead of Life Steal on the Wave of Light Daibo for a PvP weapon?

Demon Hunter Hand-Crossbows:
You are comparing the Rare Hand-Crossbows to a Manticore. They're different types of weapons with different purposes. Then again, perhaps a Manticore + DML vs 2 Hand-Crossbows is the proper comparison? Fore now, let's compare the Rare Hand-Crossbows with Calamity. Here's what the best possible (*Some discrepancy between what can actually roll and what is listed on the Battle.net page) Calamity looks like: http://d3up.com/i/6988107
I couldn't change the % for the Marked for Death proc, but that goes to 50%. When I ask other Demon Hunters about that Marked for Death proc, their response is typical that it's negligible. That's a determination for players to make for themselves. The stat sheet damages of each show comparable damage, with the Physical Rare Hand-Crossbow being slightly higher than the Calamity.
Again, the Rare Hand-Crossbows:
Physical Damage: http://d3up.com/i/6815370
Elemental Damage(other than cold): http://d3up.com/i/6815368
Regardless of whether or not you would still choose the Calamity, Demon Hunters have the option because the Rare is competitive[/u].

Here, I will concede that the 7 rolls of Manticore are simply too much for the Rare to compete with.
Physical Damage: http://d3up.com/i/6989226
Elemental Damage: http://d3up.com/i/6989331
Manticore: http://d3up.com/i/6989645
*Note: The Manticore is a 2 socket Manticore. I removed 1 socket and added the damage in so that it was visible for a better comparison.

I felt like being thorough, so I checked the damage of dual wielding vs Manticore. I added a Marquise Emerald to the Manticore before testing (1 M. Ruby + 1 M. Emerald). Using the Physical Damage Rare Hand-Crossbows (with 200 dex instead of Life Steal) produced results that were much closer than I thought they would be (dare I say, competitive?). Copy the Physical Damage Hand Crossbow I made and the Manticore I made, change the Life Steal on the Hand-Crossbow to 200 Dexterity, and try them for yourself.

Thank you for making me revisit the items as it did reveal to me that the Manticore's 7 rolls is simply too much for Rare Crossbows to compete with. However, Crossbows are not class specific.
A proper remake all i ask with Blizzard North.

Blizzard North doesn't exist anymore guy.

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