T.D.P. Dual Wield discussion

Barbarian
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@ Wayneold

Haven't seen you in game mate so I've left some gear with Nived for u to practice with. Good luck buddy :)
@WayneOld -- I have obviously missed a lot since switching to Hardcore months ago. Looks about right. I wonder how it impacts Rend though. I noticed that when I cast Rend in densities, the globe doesn't move.
Don't forget defensive passive in budget gearing..
WW/Rend/KS build
I tried some runs tonight with WW/rend/killing spree, it's a great build when gathering stacks but I ran into a couple of difficulties in the uber fights:

- it's a pain to start up cold. Ubers hit quite a bit harder than trash mobs, and so it's quite dangerous at the start until you have berserker and a few tornadoes out. Additionally, while rend reduction is nice while you're already going, it can hinder the start up process as you can't use basic hits to get all the way to the 20 fury needed to cast battle rage. Personally when I do rend/WW KD2 farming, I swap a few IK set items to gain a bit of passive generation which allows me to use a rend reduction belt, but I'm not sure whether this is allowed or worth the effort for this competition. Anyhow, in my trials tonight I only felt comfortable starting with enough fury to get sprint and berserker up right away (70+) while battle rage was already up. Given Morpheus' new rule regarding 0 fury at startup, I don't think I would be using this build unless either Acrimony or WayneOld are able to show that it is clearly the superior build.

- while it was mostly effective once going, Maghda was a pain to deal with. She has a tendency to run away from my tornadoes, which hurts fury generation, and this is exacerbated by the fear effect of the echoing fury. She frequently ends up in the corners, where it's difficult to get good tornado placement. Therefore, it is hard to maintain berserker against her with this build.

Bloodthirst passive
I think this is a challenging decision to make, as lifesteal on weapons is a very expensive stat and usually comes at the expense of DPS stats. On my own barb, I like flexibility in being able to experiment with passives like berserker rage, brawler, animosity, superstition, etc which is why I chose a lifesteal offhand. However,for the purposes of this competition we have to weigh the DPS benefits of berserker rage vs the fury benefits of animosity/superstition vs the defensive passives (which allow us to skimp on defense elsewhere) and finally versus the potentially higher DPS weapons we can get if we skip lifesteal on the weapons. Therefore, it's certainly worth consideration though I feel like either berserker rage or bloodthirst will be the mandatory 3rd passive depending on what is chosen.

Offhand Weapon
I kind of like the idea going with an IAS dagger in order to hit 2 breakpoints above an echoing fury. I feel that sprint being able to take offhand ticks is one of the inherent advantages of dual wielding, and the ability to micro-manage tick rates could be a way for players to demonstrate superior skill with the build. Acrimony mentioned using rend to reset hand orientation which could be a useful technique to help with this.

Punish/Maniac
With all this talk of rending, let's not forget about punish or maniac which are both common skills for many WW barbs while also being potent DPS boosters. I'm interested in looking at how to optimize the uptime of punish stacks and how the effective DPS compares to a rend/WW build. Punish is a popular skill, so I think the community is interested in what kind of performance it can deliver, at least as a control reference.

HotA vs WW
It looks like we're going the WW route, which is cool with me, but hota is another popular build for ubers. Unfortunately we can only optimize for one build, but I might try a couple of (unofficial) runs swapping in 1-2 hota oriented items in order to get a bit of a comparison. I think people would be interested in knowing how they compare.
1) Can you suggest a better team name? Team dual wield seems kinda.....lame....***Closed***

too bad :(

The Big Mouth Crew would have been awesome
1) Can you suggest a better team name? Team dual wield seems kinda.....lame....***Closed***

too bad :(

The Big Mouth Crew would have been awesome


You woulda been the Captain, President and Ambassador if it were named that.
04/01/2013 02:36 AMPosted by RagingKoala
You woulda been the Captain, President and Ambassador if it were named that.


naw bro the name would have to be......

Team I am so insecure i need the approval of everyone on the internet.. someone please pay attention to me. why do u make fun of me? oh cause i am bad? ahh that makes sense.. oh what? im annoying and narcissistic as well, why wont anyone love me as much as i love myself Squad
I love to troll on this forum u guys are so dumb u bite the hook everytime its not even a challenge lol
04/01/2013 03:31 AMPosted by oldschool16v
I love to troll on this forum u guys are so dumb u bite the hook everytime its not even a challenge lol

ur not a troll.. ur just an idiot thirsty for attention. you know damn well u were completely serious when u posted that joke of a video of u farming in ur amazing gear, yet didnt know wtf u were doing.

EDIT: dont post on this thread anymore.. this thread is for people who are intelligent and actually have something to contribute. you're just herpes to this barb community.
^^ u should go to the strip club more often like u mention on another tread ... sexual frustration is a bad thing man :( http://i.qkme.me/35mfwc.jpg
Punish/Maniac
With all this talk of rending, let's not forget about punish or maniac which are both common skills for many WW barbs while also being potent DPS boosters. I'm interested in looking at how to optimize the uptime of punish stacks and how the effective DPS compares to a rend/WW build. Punish is a popular skill, so I think the community is interested in what kind of performance it can deliver, at least as a control reference.

this is a very good point bro. unfortunately punish stacks dont show, like frenzy stacks do (at least they didnt last time i checked). so this makes it hard to manage and keep full stacks permanantly, but if you are able to keep refreshing stacks before the uptime expires, this would be a great tool to consider. it will also offer a difference in skills for wayne and acrimony, since they have to have different specs.
@ Wayneold

Haven't seen you in game mate so I've left some gear with Nived for u to practice with. Good luck buddy :)


Thank you! I appreciate it a lot....I hope to be on today

03/31/2013 09:46 PMPosted by acrimonious
@WayneOld -- I have obviously missed a lot since switching to Hardcore months ago. Looks about right. I wonder how it impacts Rend though. I noticed that when I cast Rend in densities, the globe doesn't move.


What you are experiencing there is that Rend has a 33% proc coefficient upon cast. Subsequent Rend ticks have 0% proc....only the initial hit. If you are in a dense area, and Into the Fray proc's 2 or more times with the 33% coefficient you can instantly refill your Fury globe.

@ zylog

That is what I was afraid of....the whole not being able to start the battle with a full fury globe will be tough and will take a new level of strategy....I plan on trying to test it out to see if I can find the best way to gain initial fury in each battle.

@ oldschool

Go find a RMAH hero thread to post in....you will be their king.

Punish/Maniac
With all this talk of rending, let's not forget about punish or maniac which are both common skills for many WW barbs while also being potent DPS boosters. I'm interested in looking at how to optimize the uptime of punish stacks and how the effective DPS compares to a rend/WW build. Punish is a popular skill, so I think the community is interested in what kind of performance it can deliver, at least as a control reference.

this is a very good point bro. unfortunately punish stacks dont show, like frenzy stacks do (at least they didnt last time i checked). so this makes it hard to manage and keep full stacks permanantly, but if you are able to keep refreshing stacks before the uptime expires, this would be a great tool to consider. it will also offer a difference in skills for wayne and acrimony, since they have to have different specs.


In all honesty I figured at least one of us would be using a more traditional build and leaning on a fury generator....but that leaves one of us in the position where we would have to omit that skill....between myself and acrimony I am sure one of us will devise a strategy where we feel comfortable starting every battle and finishing every battle without a generator. The other one can incorporate bash and run a more traditional WW build.....which we all know can be accomplished without much difficulty.
As far as an EF for the mainhand.....I think it will really mess with us in the Maghda fight....although it does have the greatest potential, considerable risk comes with this gearing choice.....let's keep our options open and determine if we can get to a respectable breakpoint without an EF and then we will have to weigh the risk/benefit....I am unsure of which gearing scenario will better serve us.

By the way, noob questions here, I forgot, does fear proc only against Maghda, or do any of the other Uber's get feared?

Also, which Uber's are classified as "Demons" and would be given the damage boost from Tyreal's Might?
04/01/2013 07:37 AMPosted by Wayneold
In all honesty I figured at least one of us would be using a more traditional build and leaning on a fury generator....but that leaves one of us in the position where we would have to omit that skill....between myself and acrimony I am sure one of us will devise a strategy where we feel comfortable starting every battle and finishing every battle without a generator. The other one can incorporate bash and run a more traditional WW build.....which we all know can be accomplished without much difficulty.
since once of u has to use a different passive the next best passive for ubers is superstition. with the extra fury from superstition, it may be easier to run a no fury generator, but this will permit ls on oh. however, if u can manage w/o a generator (which i have no doubt either one of u can) this will allow for the use of war cry for extra defenses and make it somewhat easier. if u and acrimony both run a no fury generator that would be awesome.. there is so much potential in that way of playing. i've tried it before, back when my dps was lower and i loved it. the only headache was accidentally leaving a pack with under half fury and u have to debate not using sprint or risk losing wotb trying to get to the next mob. however, with ubers pretty much once u gain fury, u are golden. the only fight i see causing any trouble would be skele/maghda, since kulle's bubble has been fixed to accommodate barbs. and this is only after skele has been killed. once maghda drops her shield u have to to spending fure all together in order to keep as much as possible.

04/01/2013 07:53 AMPosted by Wayneold
.let's keep our options open and determine if we can get to a respectable breakpoint without an EF and then we will have to weigh the risk/benefit....I am unsure of which gearing scenario will better serve us.

by this do u mean not using an ef at all? sorry if i misunderstood, but imho an using an ef is a must for any ww barb. to stack ias on weapons along with cd and possibly ls would be a nightmare for a low budget. also, we would need to stack more slots of ias on gear.

By the way, noob question here, I forgot, does fear proc only against Maghda, or do any of the other Uber's get feared?

im pretty sure all of them have the potential to be feared, but since i use ef in oh my fear hardly ever procs and i cant remember any time it has in ubers.
04/01/2013 07:55 AMPosted by Nived
the only fight i see causing any trouble would be skele/maghda, since kulle's bubble has been fixed to accommodate barbs. and this is only after skele has been killed. once maghda drops her shield u have to to spending fure all together in order to keep as much as possible.


I completely agree....I have never run with a fury generator and the skele/Maghda fight was the only real headache I had (even when Kulle's bubble still messed with us). With an EF in the main hand I can see the need for it to be a perfect run and the RNG gods to be with us so she doesn't end up sprinting from corner to corner across the map.....although it was always easier when I was soloing the Ubers.....she can be manipulated to stay out of the corners if you know how to time her movements....but the fear proc will take away any positioning advantage we have.
No bash will only be a problem for magdha after sk is dead. If she corners and you have zero fury and have sketchy ehp, good luck.

edit: another argument for hota. for ubers, ive been running with bash/opks/rend/hota. only drawback is the ehp requirement is higher since you have zero mobility.
03/31/2013 07:50 PMPosted by Wayneold
In reference to sustain: even if we need different builds we can always compensate by using Bloodthirst as a passive in one of our builds and Rend: Bloodlust in the other, right? If needed it will provide massive amounts of sustain from our build rather than our gear.


Few key gearing decisions:

1) IK belt or WH belt. Both have very strong points from a utility perspective, but which one you choose will effect passives as well as weapon choices.

2) Crit Mempo is out considering the budget unless you are going with at low crit mempo which (extra crit needed for procs?). I'm guessing a high str mempo will ultimately be the decision but not 100% sure. Would you guys get stronger mitigation from an str/armor mempo?

3) 24 MS: Inna w/ Lacuni? lacuni with MS boots? Another key decision that obviously effects EHP (Wayne's favorite word ;) balancing.

If you guys can come to consensus on this, I think the rest will be gravy. Not really too much to disagree about...even if it is Wayne and Acri lol.

:D
No bash will only be a problem for magdha after sk is dead. If she corners and you have zero fury and have sketchy ehp, good luck.

very true. when she gets into a corner with a couple arcane and her flies, but i really want to try and get a low kill time so u try to stick it out.. i think no matter ur ehp thats never gonna be fun situation.
04/01/2013 04:02 AMPosted by oldschool16v
^^ u should go to the strip club more often like u mention on another tread ... sexual frustration is a bad thing man :( http://i.qkme.me/35mfwc.jpg


I saw your video. It looks like you were holding two dildos and hitting yourself in the face with it over and over again.
By the way this HAS to be a live stream event. I can't imagine seeing the successes and or failures as they happen live. Screw a youtube video.

Does anyone have OBS (free streaming software)? You can stream on twitch.tv for free if you have a comp that can handle it.

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