The purpose of an ARPG

General Discussion
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04/30/2013 05:58 PMPosted by Lylirra
Thats alot of text but some good points. I wish blizz would read some of these posts that gamers actually put time and thought into writing.


Read or respond to? We read a lot, we just don't respond to everything. We also don't necessarily agree with everything players suggest, but the discussions in and of themselves are super meaningful. :)

Diablo 3 challenges me on all fronts:

1. The most popular builds do not account for position. Barb WW builds, monk TR builds, and DH strafe builds are unaffected by pathing, and there are no environmental effects to consider, anywhere.
2. The key builds do not significantly consider the placement of skills. There is typically only one skill utilized, and that skill typically does massive AOE damage centered on the path of the player.
3. Complexity and speed do not change. The game does not alter fundamental mechanics between Normal and Inferno. Speed does not change. There is ONLY the scaling of damage and health, with the exception of a few monster affixes, most of which are not particularly strategic, but instant and automatic.


All solid points, and we agree on most fronts. Popular builds don't account for position or placement of skills, and we could do more to scale difficulty better. The conclusions you came to in terms of how we might address those pain points are different than the solutions we've considered, but it's totally understandable to see how you arrived at them.

Either way, this is a great discussion. I'm curious to see what other players think and have them weigh in on two points if : 1) whether or not they agree with your premises and b) how they'd personally like to see the game evolve to improve on those areas.

Interested to see where this dialogue goes from here, so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. (May not post much, but I'll definitely be reading along.)


Perhaps the game needs some "soft" CC and some "hard" CC.

"Soft" CC would consist of unavoidable CC such as Nightmarish, Jailer, Knockback, etc.
"Hard" CC would consist of avoidable CC such as Frozen (Sadly, there isn't many).

Crowd Control immunity should grant you "immunity" against "soft" CC only. Whether WotB is on or not, Frozen will still freeze you unless you dodge it.

Reduce the damage of unavoidable attack and abilities (usually basic attack from the monster) but increase the damage of avoidable damage, depending on how easy it can be dodged. Slow projectile should hurt a lot while fast projectile should hurt less.

IMO, that would be a good start.
The popular builds, at least when it concerns, TR monks and strafe demons hunters are popular really only because they are efficient at extremely low MP levels, when you are simply farming XP. They become the "popular" builds because my guess is that a majority of the player base, probably never goes past MP1. What you don't see is TR Monks, and Strafe demons hunters walking into MP10 and those builds working just as well. Doesn't happen. They have to find different specs just to survive.
There is a big difference between strategic placement of character and forced placement of character by my definition.

Strategic placement of character is for example standing in front of a door against 50 monsters, or moving them to a closed area (by utilizing a door in D1) to burn with firewalls, or using a massive CC skill or pets to create similar environments, strategic placement is what I agree with.

But forced placement of character is for example ground firewalls in the keeps depth, deadly elite CC skills like frozen/vortex, traps you can always see in a Prince of Persia game, or deadly boss skills in WoW, these that force and limit character placement is not fun in a Diablo game because you are told by the game how to play and usually have no other choices, this is also not WoW where the real challenge is everyone in a team doing the right routine.

OP has his points, these things can make under geared characters' progression more interesting, but as we all know D3 starts from 60, rerolling characters with different developments is not encouraged, so...they are still good ideas but I must say endgame is everything is one of the fundamental flaw of this game unless you can come up with some challenging modes.
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Another thing is, skills are almost all straightforward, do skills make big difference in a narrow area and in an open area, do they usually partially absorbed by walls (like wizard's ground lightning) or do they bounce from hitting objects. This is where in the skill rune system you can improve.
someone should just make a post called letter to the editor if they havint already lol i see why they changed inferno cause they wanted to make it so everyone could play on it and put monster power in its place cause i notice for those that dont wanna play inferno they cant progress with level ups and that makes people wanna quit more games now a days need to have a balance of fun and challenge and approach ability if you want a good challenging game that has all three try these lol

1. demonsouls
2. darksouls

cant wait for the sequal to darksouls saw it it looked epic

you even get some monsters that kill you in one shot if you arent careful and dont got the resistances in the first game one of the bosses actually drains your level you lose a level up lol

Regardless how many issues D3 has, the good thing is that it actually does NOT work like either Demonsouls or Darksouls.

Now, those two games could be pretty awesome, which they are! I am sure they have awesome qualities.

But, and thats the problem here, why should "all" games suddenly be similar? There is nowhere some rule that says "aRGPS have to be like Dark Souls".

I think the idea behind Diablo 3, that its an item based game, where player skill plays very little to no role, is awesome. Its what Diablo was always about. Playing the game brain afk if you want so.

And thats one of the reasons why I dont understand this "nerf WotB/archon" mentality. if I would actually want a game that is about player skill and a lot of tactics or balance, then I would not play a game like Diablo.
WOTB Should give immunity to CC only for the first 15 seconds, and any extension to WOTB though thrive on chaos should only give the damage buffs.

The only reason barbarians are OP is because they are permanently immune to control impairing which is the reason for 99% of the deaths!
04/30/2013 07:00 PMPosted by CrniVuk
if I would actually want a game that is about player skill and a lot of tactics or balance, then I would not play a game like Diablo.

Basically this, character placement can only be optional.
Im not sure what exactly the answers are myself but if part of the problem is like he says in challenges being many cheap one shots then maybe it would be good to look at how older action games in their more basic forms like Ghosts n Goblins had these problems changed in future titles in their same genre.
I see one solution.

Make damaging AVOIDABLE effects do more damage (think of the poison trees in Act 1, those big sledghammer ground-pounding guys in act 4 whose name I conveniently forget at the moment, or those charging, rhino-like things in the ice cave in Act 3...why am I so bad with names?!), and tighten up the hit detection. I know Jay concluded for some reason that dodging attacks wasn't "fun," but making dodging critical to avoiding damage seems more tactical, and more fun to me. Right now, it's basically just "I can handle MP __," and if that's the case, I can eat 95% of attacks with little ill consequence. If they made manual dodging more of a factor, the game would be more skill-based. Even at a comfortable MP, certain attacks would wreck you if you're lazy and refuse to respond. Conversely, a skilled player could avoid a lot of damage at an MP that isn't technically within their comfort zone.

*EDIT: I understand this might make the game less casual, and perhaps this is not what Blizzard is aiming for. I see no reason it couldn't be a feature that can be enabled/disabled like Monster Power. Call it, "Dodge or Die Mode" or something considerably less cheesy that I'm too tired to think of at the moment.
I was reading another thread that was talking about the time it takes to patch stuff. I realize that it is more complex than we tend to think, but we are starved for product/content.

I was also thinking of the time that was spent designing the weapon and armor artwork. It seems as if it was a bit of a waste making all of those items from level 5 to 59 and not have much use for them. I would like to see them reused in an future patch. Just give them new affix's and stats that compete with the other level 61 to 63 items. That should save a ton of time and also make your designers happy that their stuff is being used in the game.

I'm sure it get's discouraging when you read all of the hate in these chats, I for one don't like to see it. I'm sure that it doesn't help anyone. But, keep your heads up. I have over 2000 hrs. in this game and I have had a blast playing it.

Thanks,
Why not add an effect that allows for misses if the player has the high ground (monsters miss % of the time with range) Another "strategic" mechanic could be that upon raising elevation, the player is slowed, as are monsters... this way, a DH may vault to a desired position or a barb may jump etc, and a natural slowing effect will happen as the monsters move up hill. Just thoughts...
One thing that currently annoys me is I'm forced to learn how to overcome all obstacles with a single build - given the variety of skills a character supposedly has available it's annoying.

Losing all Nephalem Valor for changing out a skill set in an attempt to overcome a specific threat is punishing the player for taking a tactical stance.

Instead it's DPS and DPS only that will get you out of a tough situation.
Diablo 3 made a significant departure from Diablo 1&2. That departure was in the direction of significantly simplified gameplay. The explanation for that new direction (at least as I hear it) is to appeal to casual gamers.

This makes me question the value of having blue responses in a thread like this. Am I to seriously believe you are planning to reverse course on the casual appeal? Are you contemplating a new game mode (let's call it 'intense' for the sake of differentiating it from 'hardcore'), one in which the gameplay mechanics would be less trivial? Is there even any capacity or will within Blizzard to seriously approach such a radical change to the game?

Frankly, I'd love to hear a straight answer from Blizzard to any of that before we (the forums community) invest our time in more suggestions in this direction. There have been a ton of idea threads in this area, and almost nothing has happened in a year. I guess I just don't believe that if you can't do some basic skill tweaking to balance skills enough to make more builds viable, that you're going to do this huge ambitious rewrite of the game mechanics to appeal to a small percentage of the player base.
someone should just make a post called letter to the editor if they havint already lol i see why they changed inferno cause they wanted to make it so everyone could play on it and put monster power in its place cause i notice for those that dont wanna play inferno they cant progress with level ups and that makes people wanna quit more games now a days need to have a balance of fun and challenge and approach ability if you want a good challenging game that has all three try these lol

1. demonsouls
2. darksouls

cant wait for the sequal to darksouls saw it it looked epic

you even get some monsters that kill you in one shot if you arent careful and dont got the resistances in the first game one of the bosses actually drains your level you lose a level up lol

Regardless how many issues D3 has, the good thing is that it actually does NOT work like either Demonsouls or Darksouls.

Now, those two games could be pretty awesome, which they are! I am sure they have awesome qualities.

But, and thats the problem here, why should "all" games suddenly be similar? There is nowhere some rule that says "aRGPS have to be like Dark Souls".

I think the idea behind Diablo 3, that its an item based game, where player skill plays very little to no role, is awesome. Its what Diablo was always about. Playing the game brain afk if you want so.

And thats one of the reasons why I dont understand this "nerf WotB/archon" mentality. if I would actually want a game that is about player skill and a lot of tactics or balance, then I would not play a game like Diablo.


His point regarding those games wasn't that D3 should be a clone of them. Just that they spent an enormous amount of time on the combat and the collision detection in particular.

That lends to minimalism though as you can't have huge battlefields with tons of collisions going on. Too heavy a GPU/CPU load.

That doesn't mean D3 couldn't be better. There are number of ways to improve the gaming experience. I move to the issue of range potential.

1. Introduce aggro as a concept for players, pets and companions.
2. Ranged should by default generate 30% less aggro.
3. Add aggro reduction to a number of abilities (possibly as glyph) to promote aggro management.

Just those three additions would increase usefulness of the templar for example, as well as the hundreds of character builds that require distance in higher MP levels.
04/30/2013 05:58 PMPosted by Lylirra
All solid points, and we agree on most fronts. Popular builds don't account for position or placement of skills, and we could do more to scale difficulty better. The conclusions you came to in terms of how we might address those pain points are different than the solutions we've considered, but it's totally understandable to see how you arrived at them.


Have you ever considered adjusting healthpools? It's absolutely ridiculous how they've scaled out of proportion at higher MP levels, and this is the main reason build diversity is so lackluster right now. Players willing to play at higher MP levels are forced into the skills that deal the most damage, while we can still see some decent build diversity at lower MP levels, where healthpools are closer to what they were in the original inferno.

I strongly believe you should rebalance healthpools and increase actual difficulty, because as it is right now, MP10 is just a lame dps check. People can simply stand still soaking damage while spamming a heavy hitting skill till everything is dead. Heck, i can do it in my crappy gear. The only variable is killing speed, but risk of dying is minimal once you've achieved a certain amount of defense. Imho, anything above MP7 should be extremely challenging, regardless of your gear level. This difficulty should indeed be close to what it was originally in the 1.0 inferno, if not tougher, in order to compensate for adjusting healthpools. This should force the player to use skill, instead of just outgearing content and facerolling the "hardest" difficulty. In order to keep those higher levels appealing, there should be interesting rewards for those able to take the heat Stuff you can't simply purchase from the auction house, which we already know has trivialized the farming element of the game to the point rendering farming into the absolute worst way to progress in this game.

By overdoing HP scaling, you've forced yourselves into the uncomfortable position of rebalancing everything again, since skills were somewhat balanced for the original inferno scenario. Same happened with character damage. It's absurd how out of control it has gone after several buffs to items. The worst of this is that the core flaw of the current itemization system is still there, and remains unaddressed. Itemization is plain, linear and boring. There are no options to build interesting gear setups, and more than half of the affix pool is completely worthless. Itemization fixes shouldn't be only focused on tightening affix ranges (a part of the problem, indeed), but on promoting gear diversity by bringing worthless affixes to competitive levels.
I think the biggest problem with diablo 3 lies in the "zerg" nature of actually playing the game. The ONLY *real* fun I have had in the game is fighting belial for the first few times, and to a much lesser extent diablo. Belial is just an amazingly well done fight, and it feels epic. It requires knowledge of the fight patterns, quick reaction time, planning, and a lot of times a tad bit of luck. But every time I successfully complete that fight on mp10, I feel like I have accomplished something.

No elite packs do that for me. The only ones that are challenging are challenging because of broken abilities like vortex into a pool of lava+acid+center of an arcane beam. The most damaging skills are unavoidable. Things like vortex and jailer have no warning, and no amount of skill can avoid them.

I feel like my only option is to stack as much hp steal/regen/loh and mitigation as possible, and hope i don't get 1 shot (which i still do, with 37k hp 900+ ra and 4k armor). I really wish there were more scripted and/or strategic fights in this game. That's what kept me in wow for 6+ years.

I think the best solution is a complete overhaul of the champion affix system, to move it towards combinations of abilities that enhance and encourage strategic gameplay, instead of mindless, boring zerging.

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