0dog: big bang evolution for 1.08

Witch Doctor
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A lot of ZD players, whether they have read guides like or similar to heyguyslol's or not have come up with the main factors that make the build work. AS is one of those factors. Can a ZD build that doesn't rely on AS be a gamechanger? For sure, if it covers the other things that AS used to bring to the build (faster globe windup, ls) without the need for AS, or eliminate the build's need for those things altogether. It can also be a gamechanger if the spec provides the build with something new that makes up for what AS used to bring.

...still don't see how it's an evolution of the build. A different route? Sure. Next step? Imo, no. I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not saying the spec doesn't work. I have tried it before. It has a few limitations, but yeah it works. It's just not an evolution of the build.

...still don't see how it's an evolution of the build. A different route? Sure. Next step? Imo, no. I'd also like to make it clear that I'm not saying the spec doesn't work. I have tried it before. It has a few limitations, but yeah it works. It's just not an evolution of the build.


that's really all this build is about. trying different things. getting away from groupthink and coming up with options that may not seem apparent in the past. simply opening up the doors for using slower weapons is already a huge leap forward. extremely high quality gear doesn't always fit into our builds nicely. sometimes we have to make tradeoffs in our way of thinking. KNOWING a low APS build actually works is a giant step towards opening up possibilities in your future equipment evolution.

this build is neither appropriate nor advisable for alot of people. this build is simply here to open up possibilities for those who may have a different style of play. after all, not everyone like playing a glass cannon build. however some people prefers a glass cannon. the concept of glass cannon has been around for ages in gaming. this is simply an interpretation of that concept using the 0dog as a base. it's like some prefer the thrill of a motorcycle, but most prefer the safey of a SUV
Like I said, I guess I misunderstood. This thread started out having a vibe that a low AS spec boasts equal if not greater efficiency than a spec with high AS. That this spec is the next step up in ZD. So that's how I took the discussion.

I also remember your post on a different thread saying that you can out perform a lot of the top ZD out there with a low APS spec. So I guess that didn't help how I took your build guide as boasting greater efficiency vs the ZD build concensus.

To which I am wondering, what was the point of the guide? Was it just a guide for a different ZD route? If so, then cool. If one of the guides' purpose is to show that this spec is the next level up for ZD... then that's quite misleading.

If you're going to openly acknowledge that there are benefits to going above a higher AS and then say that it isn't part of your argument, then there's not much really to say. Hard to have a debate if you're going to ignore certain factors that are quite important to the fundamentals of the ZD core mechanics. As you said, it's all about the trade offs. So far it just seems like the tradeoff is not worth it to get higher numbers vs everything that AS brings to the table.


there is a trade off and i've already mentioned it before. it's not that i'm ignoring the APS factor which you feel is a core ZD mechanic, but balancing it with the actual game mechanic of diminishing returns on additional haste in a group environment. if the game itself is unable to respond to the additional APS, then that APS should be traded off to other things like bigger crits.

0dog is NOT a "tick based" build like the wizard critical mass build. with a "tick based" mechanic, the calculations are still being made whether the machine is responding to your mouse click/keyboard press or not... because of this, there IS a real diminishing returns in APS for 0dog because at some point. it no longer matter if you have 2.6 aps or 3.2 aps... the computer simply can't react to it due to poor optimization of the dog explosion. sure, on paper, you still see that increase in DPS. however in practice, you are still stuck with that 6 frames per second lag when you are trying to blow up 30 mobs in a full group :D

game mechanics > build mechanics...
Like I said, I guess I misunderstood. This thread started out having a vibe that a low AS spec boasts equal if not greater efficiency than a spec with high AS. That this spec is the next step up in ZD. So that's how I took the discussion.

I also remember your post on a different thread saying that you can out perform a lot of the top ZD out there with a low APS spec. So I guess that didn't help how I took your build guide as boasting greater efficiency vs the ZD build concensus.

To which I am wondering, what was the point of the guide? Was it just a guide for a different ZD route? If so, then cool. If one of the guides' purpose is to show that this spec is the next level up for ZD... then that's quite misleading.


well, if you are interested in seeing how my build performs. shoot me a friend invite i'd be happy to take you on a grand tour of act3 together with a monk and wizzy :D you can make the judgement yourself on whether my build CAN perform :) maybe you'll see the type of game lag i'm talking about that is so detrimental towards a high APS build. will i die alot? absolutely :D however, you would be able to see the circumstances at which those deaths occur and decide just how bad the build is for yourself.(and just how bad of a player I am :D )

as for the evolution part of the discussion.. I think it's up for each person who try the build to decide if it is evolutionary for their build. with group synergy, i find the natural evolution for the dog build to be larger crits. not all will agree with me and not all can appreciate the difference. however I'm fairly confident that some people would find this build evolutionary.
I understand that ZD is not tick based like cm wiz and yes, I do know that AS is a core mechanic of the ZD build. You don't, which is why we're having this discussion.

If the ultimate argument is because computers can't handle the high APS, which results in APS diminishing returns then I guess I really don't have anything more to say because my machine does just fine with multiple ZD, CM or Meteor combo on screen. I have tested as far as 3.03 APS and everything went just fine. So if that's the argument, then I don't have much else to say about it.

All I have spoken about is my own experiences with a very similar spec and I've come to find that the benefits of a low APS spec just doesn't outweigh the benefits that an APS spec provides. I'm just making sure that everyone sees both sides of the coin and reduce misinformation about ZD.

To everyone that decides to try this, I hope it fits you well so your investment will be worth it. I honestly think in the end everyone will come to the conclusion that AS is something they'll need to add to their spec. So I really hope that players who follow this guide find the end result worthwhile.
will i die alot? absolutely :D however, you would be able to see the circumstances at which those deaths occur and decide just how bad the build is for yourself.(and just how bad of a player I am :D )


Like I said I have tried a spec like this before. Didn't work out.

Idk, I am just lost in this discussion. Just simple things like you acknowledge that this build will get you killed a lot, and that's with a cm wiz? Then I don't really see how this spec route provides more damage if you spend some time rezzing with a low APS spec vs the consistent survivability of a high APS spec. So wouldn't that mean that with everything considered, lag AS diminishing returns, deaths, etc included... that a high APS spec does more and much consistent damage since the spec can keep dishing out damage instead of dying a few times in the run?
well... that's why i said the circumstances at which those deaths occur :D if i get vortexed into multiple iceballs that explodes as i land which happens to be on top of 3 layers of green puddle... i die ALOT to those circumstances :D or get knocked back into a laser then get wall'ed off so i can't move... yah die alot to that too :D sometimes i'm just stupid and blow up all 4 dogs when the reflect dmg is on... some of those circumstances ARE player error and some of those circumstances will kill ANY build of ANY class... (yes horde lasers CAN kill WotB barbs if waller is involved). does that mean I don't die alot just because the rest of the group died also? no. a death is still counted as a death :D just ask the HC people :)

as far as questioning this build's performance... I do intend to ask my friend to make a few vid's highlighting the strengths of the build. (i can highlight the parts where I say you still die alot using this build :D ) however he's in the middle of studying for his finals so the vids will have to wait...
Considering how expensive the 0 Dog build is I highly doubt there will be that many ppl willing to fork out the extra cash to try a build that really isn't all that reliable and furthermore yet to be proven as more dps.

I'm sure there will be some players but not enough to consider this a new revolution to the 0 Dog build. Even though this build is primarily meant for group play ppl need to understand that they will be relying a lot on their party members to keep them alive such as a cm wiz and perhaps another 0 Dog player, if those players die then chances are you are probably going to die as well.

For my play style I don't like relying on other ppl to get things done, I prefer to rely on one person, myself, if I die its my own fault and no one elses.
When you make your vids please show your stats, gear, and spec either b4 or after your ghom kills. I also recommend doing 3-4 tests so you can take the average also make sure u use the same follower skills during your comparison tests I'd recommend using anatomy instead of hysteria because u will get more dps out of anatomy with your anti asp build or you could forgo the use of a follower and not use them.
05/03/2013 05:52 PMPosted by heyguyslol
When you make your vids please show your stats, gear, and spec either b4 or after your ghom kills. I also recommend doing 3-4 tests so you can take the average also make sure u use the same follower skills during your comparison tests I'd recommend using anatomy instead of hysteria because u will get more dps out of anatomy with your anti asp build or you could forgo the use of a follower and not use them.


well it would be nice if you can provide a vid of your own so we have a baseline to measure against. sorta a "how it's done" vid that we can compare our times to.
When you make your vids please show your stats, gear, and spec either b4 or after your ghom kills. I also recommend doing 3-4 tests so you can take the average also make sure u use the same follower skills during your comparison tests I'd recommend using anatomy instead of hysteria because u will get more dps out of anatomy with your anti asp build or you could forgo the use of a follower and not use them.


well it would be nice if you can provide a vid of your own so we have a baseline to measure against. sorta a "how it's done" vid that we can compare our times to.


I'm not the one promoting your build, lol. Its up to u to sell it since your telling everyone its so good for high dmg in a group. I have better things to do, lol. Even if I did post a video of me killing Ghom what would be the point?
05/03/2013 05:52 PMPosted by heyguyslol
When you make your vids please show your stats, gear, and spec either b4 or after your ghom kills. I also recommend doing 3-4 tests so you can take the average also make sure u use the same follower skills during your comparison tests I'd recommend using anatomy instead of hysteria because u will get more dps out of anatomy with your anti asp build or you could forgo the use of a follower and not use them.


I say do the test without follower since the anti-APS build is being put out specifically for group play.
05/03/2013 07:15 PMPosted by heyguyslol
Even if I did post a video of me killing Ghom what would be the point?


I was going to ask the same thing. Unless he hasn't seen any of your vids on Twitch.
05/03/2013 07:57 PMPosted by LordAmsa
Even if I did post a video of me killing Ghom what would be the point?


I was going to ask the same thing. Unless he hasn't seen any of your vids on Twitch.


he only has one available on twitch. a 6 hr vid dated back in dec. of 2012. which does not contain a solo kill of ghom.

the purpose is to have "something" to measure against since he has indicated that the evolution build must exceed the current build by a comfortable margin. considering he IS the recognized "expert" of the traditional build with perhaps one of the BEST equipment loadout for the traditional build, logic dictates that he would be a very good baseline to work from if "proof" in the viability of this build is to be provided... I don't see a problem since he neither lack the equipment nor the knowledge of the traditional build to provide an accurate baseline comparison to measure from.

it's very difficult to "show" an improvement over an existing build if it can not be measured against a proper baseline. can you think of ANYONE more qualified to provide a baseline to measure against?
You should be able to do Ghom with your build without dying. The point of you doing a Ghom test is to time how long it takes u to down him with say a 100k dps build with low attack speed and a 100k dps build with high attack speed.

If u can acquire the gear to do an accurate test like that it should show the time difference between the two builds and the one that kills faster is the higher edps build. But even if your low asp dps build wins it really needs to win by a significant factor over a high aps dps build in order for it to be worth ppl's time and gold.

If your build wins by say 2-3 secs then imo its not worth it but if your build wins by say 5-7secs then it would be worth it for those who dont mind dying with a reward of seeing larger crits, in the end your actually going to be doing less dmg and critting less because most of the time u will be dead anyways, lol.

I'm not the one promoting your build, lol. Its up to u to sell it since your telling everyone its so good for high dmg in a group. I have better things to do, lol. Even if I did post a video of me killing Ghom what would be the point?


the point would be a proper baseline to measure against. you've pretty much set out a pretty sky high goal in your earlier post indicating that my build must beat the old build by a large margin.... i feel it's quite an unreasonable challenge considering the level of gear in question are in fact quite expensive. so... having you provide a proper baseline to measure against, we can be sure there are no arguments in the validity of the baseline and offer accurate when comparison is made.

I TRIED to locate a vid of you doing it, however no success on that end. the ONLY vid i WAS able to locate was on your twitch channel and it's over 4 months old. even if it DID contain a solo kill of ghom I feel it would not be an accurate or proper baseline to measure against since quality of gear has since gone up quite significantly.
05/03/2013 07:56 PMPosted by LordAmsa
When you make your vids please show your stats, gear, and spec either b4 or after your ghom kills. I also recommend doing 3-4 tests so you can take the average also make sure u use the same follower skills during your comparison tests I'd recommend using anatomy instead of hysteria because u will get more dps out of anatomy with your anti asp build or you could forgo the use of a follower and not use them.


I say do the test without follower since the anti-APS build is being put out specifically for group play.


let me get this right. you want a build specifically designed for GROUP play to go SOLO in a fight that I have indicated as disadvantageous for the build and feel that having the follower somehow invalidates the fight?...

hum... not quite following the logic behind this.
05/03/2013 10:08 PMPosted by Psyclum


I say do the test without follower since the anti-APS build is being put out specifically for group play.


let me get this right. you want a build specifically designed for GROUP play to go SOLO in a fight that I have indicated as disadvantageous for the build and feel that having the follower somehow invalidates the fight?...

hum... not quite following the logic behind this.


It's a standard EDPS test that is used to get a character's well... EDPS. This is why the Ghom test has been suggested. The test is done without a follower. I never said anything about using a follower will invalidate a fight. It was just a suggestion to get more accurate results. That is all.

The weird thing is for the past few weeks now, you have been telling people on random ZD threads that this spec is a viable choice vs going for an APS build and that in your hands, can even out perform some of the top ZD out there... but since this guide has been posted, and more vulnerabilities and weaknesses on the build has been brought up... the spec has gone from something that can supposedly outperform the regular spec to a build that is glass cannon so death will be a little more common, slow globe windup, good for only group play and is no good with bosses?

It's a standard EDPS test that is used to get a character's well... EDPS. This is why the Ghom test has been suggested. The test is done without a follower. I never said anything about using a follower will invalidate a fight. It was just a suggestion to get more accurate results. That is all.

The weird thing is for the past few weeks now, you have been telling people on random ZD threads that this spec is a viable choice vs going for an APS build and that in your hands, can even out perform some of the top ZD out there... but since this guide has been posted, and more vulnerabilities and weaknesses on the build has been brought up... the spec has gone from something that can supposedly outperform the regular spec to a build that is glass cannon so death will be a little more common, slow globe windup, good for only group play and is no good with bosses?


well... I was the one who pointed those weaknesses out because i wanted to be completely honest with people who may consider this build. as for my confidence in the build... that's kinda the reason I was hoping heyguyslol would chime in with a vid so I have something to measure against. I'd say as far as a traditional 0dog build, he's about as high as it gets in terms of optimized gear and level of knowledge. considering his level of gear, I'd say this build would be pretty validated if I can keep up with his baseline.

I mean I was accused of only looking at crit numbers and not considering the DPS output of high APS. so if a sub 2.0 APS build can keep up with his baseline then that would make this a viable alternative to the traditional 0dog build. essentially he's put me in a position where only his baseline would be adequate to demonstrate this build's viability.

so.. as you mentioned earlier regarding his vid on twitch... I guess my google fu is not strong enough that I must ask, do you know of a vid where heyguyslol actually soloed ghom that i can use as a baseline? preferably a recent one so that it reflects updated equipment instead of something 4 months old which may be grounds of invalidating it as a baseline measurement? the ONLY vid i was able to find associated with heyguyslol is over 4 months old which resides on his twitch account. does he operate out of another twitch account that is not commonly known? or even a youtube channel i can visit to sort through the vids to find a baseline to measure from?
Here is a Ghom kill on mp10 without follower for you. Note this is not a speed kill, if I were doing a pure speed kill I would use my Tyreal's Might and a pair of Int Lacuni's and I would have pre-charged gruesome feast, the gear I used is my normal farming gear. Made a highlight, also showed spec, and gear.

http://www.twitch.tv/heyguyslol_1302/c/2241464

However, I still don't see how this is going to prove anything because comparing my dps against another will not be valid. You would have to find a WD that has the same dps as me but without the attack speed and then compare times between the two for you to get the comparison you are looking for.

Which is why i suggested you try to build a 100k or so wd with and without attack speed both need to have roughly the same sheet dps for the best accurate results. Both builds dont need to be 100k thats just a baseline you could go with more or less dps what ever is within your budget.

I think twitch purges past videos if you do not stream regularly because I haven't been streaming and I noticed that all my videos are gone except for the one dated 4 months ago.

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