Archon DPS and EHP recommendations vs MP

Wizard
There's been a few of these posted in the past and I thought I'd post one myself for reference. The values are based on my experience at high MP, primarily that I can farm MP9 fairly efficiently with 450k dps and around 450k EHP. With those values you should be able to kill elites in a timely fashion (10-20s for most). Having higher values will obviously make farming easier, so these are more like low end recommendations. I'm guessing a lot of people will recommend much higher EHP values, and I won't argue with that. My only claim is you can make it work with the values listed with the right gearing choices.

Assumptions:
Buffed DPS and EHP
pre-dodge EHP
LS weapon+BM
Improved Archon rune
Cold Blooded with cold damage follower is optional but helpful
Sufficient mitigation to not have problems against RD
450k dps and 450k EHP for MP9 farming
DPS scales directly with mob health
EHP scales directly with mob damage
solo farming both elites and trash mobs

Minimum Recommended DPS and EHP for each MP
MP DPS(k) EHP(k)
0 52 197
1 57 216
2 78 237
3 103 260
4 132 285
5 169 312
6 216 342
7 276 375
8 352 411
9 450 450
10 630 493


My personal preference for EHP gearing is to get about as much buffed mitigation and LS to break even against RD mobs, then have a couple Physical resist pieces to push me even further over so I can gain life against them. If you just break even against RD you can still die to them because of their base attacks or if they have extra annoying affixes like plague, desecrator, or electrified (I especially am starting to hate electrified).

I have no similar table for those who don't use a LS weapon or who run LS weapon but no blood magic. I have always ran with a LS weapon because I find it makes higher MP tons easier

Feel free to post if you disagree, but please state why so we can get a good discussion going. Posting in agreement is also fine.
I really don't think there's any set number. It's all based on your personal "feel" for the difficulty.

I'm about 80K DPS short of your recommendation, but my EHP is about triple over your set number (over 4x when buffed).

I've also done MP10 with only 350K fully buffed DPS. But then again I ran about 3.5 million buffed EHP.

I did do MP10 with 700K fully buffed DPS last year, and I had about 500K EHP then and I had more issues farming then than I do now.

Don't get me wrong, these numbers look great and they will help, but it all comes down to your personal play style and how you feel about:

1. How fast you want to clear content
2. How much damage you're willing to take
Totally agree that there's a lot of personal assumptions there, but I tried to mention them. Others stats can work just fine for other people. The idea was to present an approximation of values needed to efficiently farm higher MP, since there posts about Archon not being able to farm high MP seem to pop up from time to time. In theory, the values above should give reasonable survivability, as long as you use a LS weapon and have sufficient mitigation that RD isn't much of a problem, and should be reasonable dps values to be able to keep Archon active most of the time. Archon will fall off with those values but it shouldn't happen often and most of the time you should be able to just refresh it immediately, but that's also dependent on farming routes.

In short it's mostly meant for starting points so people can try to get an idea of what is needed for each MP.
Hi Jaetech, do you have any videos of your MP10 game play with your current gear?
I like the chart and I know you have it so it scales linearly but in practice the dps numbers need to be higher for the lowest MPs because drops and xp are so much lower compared to the mid and high MPs. the whole point of lowest MPs is not spending 10-20 seconds on elites but more like 2-5 seconds IMHO.
Why does everyone write Jaetech. :-P

Loroese, I think 600k dps was "recommended" once upon a time for mp10, not 630. I can't remember which post that was. Running Cold Blooded and Scoundrel, I could clear trash fine without 600k dps, but elites-wise, meh, health. You get bad combos plus extra health.

I'm surprised the bar for mp10 is you have to kill an elite pack in 20 seconds or less because sometimes you get such random crap elite affixes that cause you to run away, and sometimes the group is spread out and not neatly bunched up in a ball.
06/01/2013 12:39 PMPosted by jenpeezey
Why does everyone write Jaetech. :-P


Because apparently there's a company in Ohio called "JAE Tech, Inc." which is completely, completely unrelated to me. I'd like to know if the ones who call me that are from Ohio.

Freakin' ArchonTheWizard pronounced my tag as "jaetech" when I dropped in on his stream once.
Quick question, new wizard here.

Does the Cold Damage on Tal's Allegiance proc for Cold Blooded?
Why does everyone write Jaetech. :-P

Loroese, I think 600k dps was "recommended" once upon a time for mp10, not 630. I can't remember which post that was. Running Cold Blooded and Scoundrel, I could clear trash fine without 600k dps, but elites-wise, meh, health. You get bad combos plus extra health.

I'm surprised the bar for mp10 is you have to kill an elite pack in 20 seconds or less because sometimes you get such random crap elite affixes that cause you to run away, and sometimes the group is spread out and not neatly bunched up in a ball.


I'm just saying most elites should die in about 20s or less. Some will take longer, like high HP mobs. Also, the values are just rough guidelines, so 630k vs 600k is pretty similar imo. I also added a statement saying this is assuming you're killing elites and trash. If you just want to kill trash you can run with half that value and still be reasonably efficient, at least in CotA, but I'll leave that to other people to look at.

06/01/2013 12:22 PMPosted by ChangBooster
I like the chart and I know you have it so it scales linearly but in practice the dps numbers need to be higher for the lowest MPs because drops and xp are so much lower compared to the mid and high MPs. the whole point of lowest MPs is not spending 10-20 seconds on elites but more like 2-5 seconds IMHO.


That is a good point. IMO it's worth pushing higher MP now that xp bonus is so high as you raise it. Otherwise you'd want about 4x the recommended DPS at lower MP to be able to mostly insta kill trash and kill elites in 5-10s or less like I used to recommend. I used to run MP1-3 with 200-250k dps but I could gain more xp at MP10 with only 275k, even killing the elite, in CotA, then I did at lower MP even though I could kill things faster. That was before the recent patch so now it's better to farm xp with NV stacks since 5 stacks gives you 1.75x the xp as 0 stacks.

I think it's worth trying to start at MP5-7, even with only 150k dps or so, if you don't mind the playstyle.
There was a problem with the scaling down of my dps with respect to survivability. Killing mobs wasn't an issue but gaining life back due to low dps was an issue when I tried MP2 with the initial recommendations. Basically I wasn't able to keep myself topped off. So what I did is scaled the dps with respect to mob hp and EHP differences, while keeping EHP recommendations the same.

There's probably a better way to scale the dps, and I'll have to think about it for a bit. In the mean time I'm open to suggestions.

EDIT: I just tested on MP3 with 108k dps, 87% mitigation, and 38k hp (290k EHP) and it worked decently so I'm going to keep the table above as is for now. I recommend more like 90% mit to be able to handle RD alright but that was just a quick check for me by removing helm and shoulders and using a cheapo 190 dps weapon.
06/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Loroese
Also, the values are just rough guidelines, so 630k vs 600k is pretty similar imo.


Heheh. If they're similar, maybe 600 is a better milestone because breaking 600k is hard, very hard without spending many billions for upgrades, and 630, even harder. Every 5-7k dps upgrade seems to be outrageous. :-/
I really don't think there's any set number. It's all based on your personal "feel" for the difficulty. I'm about 80K DPS short of your recommendation, but my EHP is about triple over your set number (over 4x when buffed).I've also done MP10 with only 350K fully buffed DPS. But then again I ran about 3.5 million buffed EHP.I did do MP10 with 700K fully buffed DPS last year, and I had about 500K EHP then and I had more issues farming then than I do now.Don't get me wrong, these numbers look great and they will help, but it all comes down to your personal play style and how you feel about:1. How fast you want to clear content2. How much damage you're willing to take

i agree that It's all based on your personal "feel" for the difficulty. I can do mp10 easy with 380k ehp, 40k HP, no need 500k ehp
06/01/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Loroese
most elites should die in about 20s or less.


for me it should be 10-15secs (including extra health) , and can run with storm armor-scramble
Small correction to prevent confusion. When I say EHP I mean pre-dodge EHP. I added that under the assumptions.

I've said it a few times, maybe more in the diablofans thread, but these values aren't set in stone. Instead, use them as guide posts or starting points and feel free to adjust the actual MP used to suit your play style.
I think allocating 20 seconds is too long for killing an elite pack, and I would adjust dps recommendations for myself to allow for 12 second kills or less.

20 seconds is an eternity at the start of your archon cast and refreshing it is exceedingly annoying to me. 20 seconds is also long enough for that one tree that's been following you to catch up and put down some seed pods as those charging beasts are knocking you all around.

But this for me is a real difference between what I feel farming efficiently feels like and what it feels like to be able to clear, but more slowly.
20s is more for extra health yellow mobs that have like 50 mil hp on MP9. Blues die considerably faster, like 10s without extra hp or less if you can get an easy group that doesn't move around much. Non-extra HP yellows take more like 10-15s. I just generalize it to 10-20s because different types of mobs take differing time to kill but with that dps you shouldn't have much problem racking up Archon duration on trash mobs to be able to handle a slightly longer elite kill time.

It does partly depend on areas you run, and maybe to an extent the act you run. My MP9 farming is mostly limited to Act 1 woods+manor+fields of misery+wheeping hollow and the caves of those areas. Less dense zones will be harder and Act 1 has the most tame mobs of all the acts so some Act 3 routes might be harder depending on what elites you get. I know Molocks or whatever the fireball chucking dragon type things are called are super annoying as Archon since they scatter. Demon tremors can be a huge pain, but so can those charging beasts in Act 1.

Should I make a vid of my MP9 farming to use as reference? Like some simple vid showing Fields clearing with some elites and KW to demonstrate how long it takes to kill trash and elites?
I have very little problem keeping Archon up on MP9 with around 470k buffed. MP8 is basically up all the time and I have to cancel it every 2 min to refresh my armor spell.

Still, it's a personal preference since at MP7 you likely kill elites very very fast. I don't mind the slightly longer kill times because of the xp and loot gains of the higher MP.

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