Game punishes you for being different.

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It's disheartening that ever since Pax East and the PS3 PS4 port announcements we only get promises and nothing other. There is an awfully clear correlation between the dropping of the amount of the patches put out and the announcement of the ports.

Threads like these show how much wrong is with this game a year after.

I'm sad. :(
Spikes, I want to quote what you say here is 100% bang on.

The main reason why every class is forced into the one best build is probably, because, compared to d2, d3 got rid of a lot of mechanics that could be influenced by "player skill".

In d2 for example almost every monster was slower than your character and most projectiles where slow enough to outmanouver them.
Also, if a melee monster wanted to hit you, your character had to be in hit range the moment the hit would land, not as in D3 at the time the hit animation starts.
As a result, if you had "crazy mouse skills" you could go full glass cannon and still survive, because you would almost never get hit anyways.

D3 on the other hand almost completly got rid of those mechanics and went more mmo style. If the game decides a monster will hit, the hit is guarenteed, no matter where you moved during the hit animation.
There are very few exceptions with a hand full of enemies' special attacks, but usually the only way out is a defensive skill, if you have one off cooldown.

As a direct result the most effective way to play D3 is max defense while also maximizing AOE damage output.
With the monsters being always faster than yourself there simply can only be one way of battle in D3.
Stand in place, soak up all the damage with defensive stats and life steal while dishing out as much AOE dps as you can and hope your are the last one standing.

No itemization or skill revamp can change this, because the core of the gameplay requires you to do that. As a result everyone will look for the skill doing the most AOE dps and use it.
By changing numbers you can only influence which one it will be for the next few month, but not achieve diversity, well unless you make every skill exactly the same, just different graphics.
The word 'build' don't exist in D3

Giving us interchangeable skills/runes is like Quake 3 where we are all given the same set guns and can change whenever we feel like. I cannot claim these two words "build diversity" if everyone else have the same tools at their fignertips.
Mana spenders other than Bats, Bears and Dogs are not worth using.

Why?

Bears - ✓✓AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA

Bats - ✓AOE ✓✓DPS ✓MANA

Dogs - ✓✓AOE ✓DPS ✓✓MANA

Acid Cloud - ✓✓AOE X DPS X MANA

Wall of Zombie - ✓AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA X COOLDOWN

Spirit Barrage - X AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA

Haunt - X AOE X DPS ✓MANA


Hi I am from Hong Kong and I play this since the first version released.
Your points look make sense but please don't forget at the first version of Diablo3.
These inferno elites are very high difficulty.
The mobs can regen life as fast as drinking water if players cannot output dps to them and if all teammates were defeated then these mobs will regen full life .
In my opinion wd has these skills for slowly done damage and prevent these mob to recovery their life.
Some of other characters class always consist of these kind of skills.
Example the Barb's rend or Monk's exploding palm.
This can keeping output the dps to mobs and always help the loh too.
There's a concept in pen-and-paper rpg's (and table-top games) that definitely applies here that Blizzard has failed to grasp.

In pen-and-paper RPG's players can often be lumped into 1 or 2 of 3 main categories. We call them Johnny, Timmy, and Spike.

Johnny cares about the role playing aspect of the game above all else. He's the one to create the craziest of character builds for the sake of flavor. He doesn't care if the build is underpowered, as long as it fits the character he set out to create, and fits within the spirit of the game (to some degree).

Timmy cares about spirit of the game somewhat, but cares more how to find builds that can be amazingly complex yet game breaking when applied properly. They're the ones that will find a particular item and say "hey, if use x and y and z skill with this item i can dominate", and then proceed to abuse this system until something better or more interesting comes along.

Spike is all about power thru numbers. Efficiency. "Does item A have a bigger bonus than Item B that I'm currently using?" If the answer is yes, Spike will use it and Item B becomes garbage. The same goes for skills. If skill A > skill B, then skill A is king and skill B is garbage.

Diablo 3 is a game that is built almost entirely for Spike. Timmy will find some enjoyment out of it and then get bored, once the few viable combinations have been found, tried, and executed to his satisfaction. Johnny would try the game and get bored and/or frustrated almost immediately.

Good games are designed with something for all 3 of these playstyles.

Just my 2 cents worth for the community/devs.
Soulseeker78
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There's a concept in pen-and-paper rpg's (and table-top games) that definitely applies here that Blizzard has failed to grasp.

In pen-and-paper RPG's players can often be lumped into 1 or 2 of 3 main categories. We call them Johnny, Timmy, and Spike.

Johnny cares about the role playing aspect of the game above all else. He's the one to create the craziest of character builds for the sake of flavor. He doesn't care if the build is underpowered, as long as it fits the character he set out to create, and fits within the spirit of the game (to some degree).

Timmy cares about spirit of the game somewhat, but cares more how to find builds that can be amazingly complex yet game breaking when applied properly. They're the ones that will find a particular item and say "hey, if use x and y and z skill with this item i can dominate", and then proceed to abuse this system until something better or more interesting comes along.

Spike is all about power thru numbers. Efficiency. "Does item A have a bigger bonus than Item B that I'm currently using?" If the answer is yes, Spike will use it and Item B becomes garbage. The same goes for skills. If skill A > skill B, then skill A is king and skill B is garbage.

Diablo 3 is a game that is built almost entirely for Spike. Timmy will find some enjoyment out of it and then get bored, once the few viable combinations have been found, tried, and executed to his satisfaction. Johnny would try the game and get bored and/or frustrated almost immediately.

Good games are designed with something for all 3 of these playstyles.

Just my 2 cents worth for the community/devs.


+ 1 This is a great way to put how me and my friends feel about D3 (we are mostly Johnnys and Timmys hehe) in a way the devs would understand...
This focus on "effeciency" is just a boring way to play an ARPG, but when you have all skills all the time there is not much else to aim for :( And we all want something to aim for (that being the best in one class or just to see if a build works)

Sure now you can try another skill to see if its fun or viable, but in the back of my mind I know I can just switch back. And it ruins the "feel" of it being my character when we are all the same..
I like to think about my build and contemplate what I want this character to be even before I role it, so I can strategize and see my "work" unfold..
Thats just the RPG part, I also think that Blizz can make a much more diverce game (skill and item wise) by giving each character some permanent choices...

All who says that leveling a new character is boring is quite right - in D3 it is boring to see your stats autolocate and your skills being unlocked at a specific lvl like a COD game... Not to mention the worthless drops before the "end game" and the pointless effort in even rolling two of the same characters since they are identical...
If you hated it in D2 then it didn't have to take more than a couple of hours online so can't see why they had to completely scrap the permanent choices just for the sake of "Availability"
- Read JW's awful post mordem (where all he does is smack talk one of the cornerstones in gaming history that made this game sell so many copies)

Edit; If you are to bring back choices to the player then you also need to give the MF% back and do something else with the pointless Paragon system (admit that it is just another way of encouraging ppl to only play one character for 100s of hours much like an MMO)
07/01/2013 06:07 PMPosted by blackjack
And did you just mention thorns as a viable build??? LOL.
Thorns build was questionably viable at launch minute they introduced paragon levels and monster power levels though it became a nonviable concept.

Blizzard hasn't changed a thing to make thorns any more viable and practical and even as it was at launch it was very questionable because unlike reflect damage it only helps against melee dps and players don't have the same type of dmg mitigation and dps distribution offered that npc's with reflect do.
I been liking an acid rain build built around DoT skills.

But when an Act 1 dark berserker on MP6 walks into me and dies instantly from cloud of bats, something is horribly unbalanced.

It's not like I was using acid cloud to keep my distance and attack from afar. I was always in their face just taking the punishment. There's no choice, have to keep em still to dish out the most damage. So why does CoB do practically 5x the damage when it's used in the same manner?
There's a concept in pen-and-paper rpg's (and table-top games) that definitely applies here that Blizzard has failed to grasp.

In pen-and-paper RPG's players can often be lumped into 1 or 2 of 3 main categories. We call them Johnny, Timmy, and Spike.

Johnny cares about the role playing aspect of the game above all else. He's the one to create the craziest of character builds for the sake of flavor. He doesn't care if the build is underpowered, as long as it fits the character he set out to create, and fits within the spirit of the game (to some degree).

Timmy cares about spirit of the game somewhat, but cares more how to find builds that can be amazingly complex yet game breaking when applied properly. They're the ones that will find a particular item and say "hey, if use x and y and z skill with this item i can dominate", and then proceed to abuse this system until something better or more interesting comes along.

Spike is all about power thru numbers. Efficiency. "Does item A have a bigger bonus than Item B that I'm currently using?" If the answer is yes, Spike will use it and Item B becomes garbage. The same goes for skills. If skill A > skill B, then skill A is king and skill B is garbage.

Diablo 3 is a game that is built almost entirely for Spike. Timmy will find some enjoyment out of it and then get bored, once the few viable combinations have been found, tried, and executed to his satisfaction. Johnny would try the game and get bored and/or frustrated almost immediately.

Good games are designed with something for all 3 of these playstyles.

Just my 2 cents worth for the community/devs.


Shouldn't a good game be designed around Johnny because the other two will ultimately just exploit game mechanics to gain a edge or advantage that shouldn't exist in the first place?

Leagues and tournaments in sports have rules to adhere by for a reason to keep a fair and level playing field for everyone involved and competitive gaming should be no different.

That is probably why League of Legends happens to be doing infinitely better then any multiplayer game in the history of gaming before it by the numbers they took gaming and made it into a sport starcraft did the same thing years prior, but League of Legends has taken competitive gaming to a whole new global level bridging the gap.

Conceivably competitive team strategy games could become a Olympic Sporting event in it's own right much like snow boarding and skate boarding that were once deemed niche sports.

Shouldn't the game be more accessible and fun to play for everyone involved not a select few? If Spike is really about epeen thru numbers even Spike is more rewarded by catering to Johnny because Spike can show case diversity and skill further like Oscar Roberston's triple doubles.
You can't have everything. Look at my monk right now. My goal is to craft an amulet and bracers with AR. once i do that i will get an innas chest for the 4 piece bonus.

Getting the 4 piece bonus will let me bell spam AND perpetually keep sweeping wind at full stacks w.o having to worry about getting another hit.

That kind of thing is more of what this game needs.

Edit: usually run healing mantra with circular breathing, so thats where i get 5 spirit/sec


Thats it! But it works only with like 5-10% of all skill assortment. Maybe more of skills would work that way - influence and work with others to raise different build, but first step is to regulate skills damage and resources all time. It can't be that hard, just start with skills that are weakest at damage or cooldown is unacceptable long.


Yeah. I wasn't really proposing a way to fix the issue, just stating a specific exmple of what's good. To kind of reiterate, having skills tied with gear is a good thing because it gives players something to work towards.

Keep in mind that the uber rich people will always get everything they want off the bat, and will never have much to work for. They will soon become bored, and this cycle will continue every time updates are released.

I did see an interesting post (possibly in this thread) about making team-based achievements. Like cyclone a pack onto a wd using cob x amount of times. It would be cool and i feel like there's a lot of fun things that could be done with that.
Shouldn't a good game be designed around Johnny because the other two will ultimately just exploit game mechanics to gain a edge or advantage that shouldn't exist in the first place?

Leagues and tournaments in sports have rules to adhere by for a reason to keep a fair and level playing field for everyone involved and competitive gaming should be no different.

That is probably why League of Legends happens to be doing infinitely better then any multiplayer game in the history of gaming before it by the numbers they took gaming and made it into a sport starcraft did the same thing years prior, but League of Legends has taken competitive gaming to a whole new global level bridging the gap.

Conceivably competitive team strategy games could become a Olympic Sporting event in it's own right much like snow boarding and skate boarding that were once deemed niche sports.

Shouldn't the game be more accessible and fun to play for everyone involved not a select few? If Spike is really about epeen thru numbers even Spike is more rewarded by catering to Johnny because Spike can show case diversity and skill further like Oscar Roberston's triple doubles.


It should, but as D3's system stands now it is only Spike that finds the game appealling.. And he can't even really use his "ultimate build" for anything competitive since there is no PvP, ladder, leagues, guilds ect. Basically he can't use it for anything other than the endless itemgrind or to go online and brag about how quick he can clear act 3...
Ugh. I read this and think of Jay Wilson saying there are "millions of builds" or whatever he said during the viral marketing campaign. I feel sick at how badly I was taken advantage of by listening to that (I got hyped big time). There were more viable builds in D2 with the "horrible cookie cutter talent trees". It's either a) Archon b) Tendon Destruction Frost nova glitch button mash build (the worst build ever conceived in video game RPG history).

Anything other is either so bad in either terms of survivability or damage output or so reliant on GG gear that you could still be much more efficient with either of the previous builds that I mentioned and you're only playing it for novelty, that it's not even worth considering. Of special note are the primary attacks that don't cost Arcane Power... they just suck. The whole resource system for Wizard is horrifically broken.

It's just an epic disappointment all-round. You can't fix it by now, I'm not expecting you to. I don't even care anymore. I'm just voicing my opinion.


If you think that any game would be able to make every possible build combination under the sun viable I would like to know what you have been smoking. Even I knew that what Jay was saying at that time did not mean that this game would be able to make all of those builds viable for all situations. Sure we might have more builds for fun and flavor if we wish to use them. But there will only be a handful that are the most efficient at what is important at endgame and that is farming.

That is the way all games are though, there is no game that I know if in history that would be able to make all possible builds viable. Where they are able to do all things efficiently. That is impossible for any game developer.
I am building a Barbarian based on the comic book character Thor (see original thread here):

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377319194?page=1#1

I'm not building this character because he will be able to farm MP10, or because it's the most efficient, or because I think it will set a new trend...

I'm doing it because it's FUN!

Isn't that what the game is about? Sheesh too much QQ these days...


I have already done it with the barbarian using different for fun builds than you have here are a few that I have tried out.

1. Ancient Crawler build
2. Shaker build
3. Indiana Jones build
4. Flaming Magma
5. Bloodthirst regen (current level 60)

All of them are for fun and were a blast to play.
-Assignable Stats
-Proper Skill tree System
-NO RMAH
-8 player games


The first two would take a ton of depth to accomplish it. Without that depth then all it would be is an illusion of customization and I want more than any illusion. Skill trees would have to be similar to TL2. Stats would have to be similar to Ragnarok Online. Where there are many different ways of spending your points that are viable even though it is not optimal.

If they were to remove the RMAH I do believe that all hell would break lose. I do not think that they would ever be able to remove it.

The last one I do believe it would take a total rework of the animation (eye candy) of all of the skills. Change them where they are not flashy at all. This game''s graphics are more intense than D2. So it would not be possible with the current eye candy to give us eight players.

07/02/2013 07:47 AMPosted by zBARRICADEz
I believe the ONLY way to fix all of the negative feedback is to completely rework the system we currently have in place. I believe that would not be as difficult as many would suggest it to be as i could also believe such a system (that of D2) was at some point a part of the build for Diablo 3 and then discarded for the current design for some reason.


The reason was no doubt because they knew that the depth in the system was not there. They must've realized that long before I even mentioned it here on the forums.

Unless you're willing to allow the player to allocate their own stat points to acheive certain breakpoints that will allow them to utilise skills that would otherwise be rendered useless (this can be acheived by simply allowing to re-spec stats at plvl 100), stop saying that Build Diversity is a big topic. Until we can make builds that are functional, that most people wouldn't even touch (good example would be an Enchantress from D2, which required very specific stat allocation to use) than there's no such thing as build diversity.


Stat points need depth or they are just an illusion of customization. Trust me the stat system in place is not deep enough to handle stat points. Just tacking on the game just to have it would be a waste of time.
If you think that any game would be able to make every possible build combination under the sun viable I would like to know what you have been smoking. Even I knew that what Jay was saying at that time did not mean that this game would be able to make all of those builds viable for all situations. Sure we might have more builds for fun and flavor if we wish to use them. But there will only be a handful that are the most efficient at what is important at endgame and that is farming.

That is the way all games are though, there is no game that I know if in history that would be able to make all possible builds viable. Where they are able to do all things efficiently. That is impossible for any game developer.


If you seriously think that "farming" should be the goal and "end game" in any ARPG then you might as well play Pacman (or an MMO)...
How about having an idea for a build that you would enjoy, leveling the character and slowly see if it is an viable option in Inferno?
I acually think that it is good for the game if I can screw up my build because it encourages me to think about the character i wish to create - making it more than an endless grind...
07/02/2013 04:49 PMPosted by DaFemaleBoss
- In D3, there is little point in using sub-par performance builds when you can switch to the most optimal in only a few mouse clicks away.


Have you ever played any build just for the fun of it.
There's a concept in pen-and-paper rpg's (and table-top games) that definitely applies here that Blizzard has failed to grasp.

In pen-and-paper RPG's players can often be lumped into 1 or 2 of 3 main categories. We call them Johnny, Timmy, and Spike.

Johnny cares about the role playing aspect of the game above all else. He's the one to create the craziest of character builds for the sake of flavor. He doesn't care if the build is underpowered, as long as it fits the character he set out to create, and fits within the spirit of the game (to some degree).

Timmy cares about spirit of the game somewhat, but cares more how to find builds that can be amazingly complex yet game breaking when applied properly. They're the ones that will find a particular item and say "hey, if use x and y and z skill with this item i can dominate", and then proceed to abuse this system until something better or more interesting comes along.

Spike is all about power thru numbers. Efficiency. "Does item A have a bigger bonus than Item B that I'm currently using?" If the answer is yes, Spike will use it and Item B becomes garbage. The same goes for skills. If skill A > skill B, then skill A is king and skill B is garbage.

Diablo 3 is a game that is built almost entirely for Spike. Timmy will find some enjoyment out of it and then get bored, once the few viable combinations have been found, tried, and executed to his satisfaction. Johnny would try the game and get bored and/or frustrated almost immediately.

Good games are designed with something for all 3 of these playstyles.

Just my 2 cents worth for the community/devs.


Small technicality, but I think you mixed up the names of Johnny and Timmy. :) I agree though, and I think there's some overlap between them all. Spike also wants to enjoy the experience of the game, and on some level even Timmy wants to win. If you look at what D3 offers each...

Spike, competitive player, plays to prove he's the best - You're right, D3 is more a Spike game than anything else. But the irony is, Spike can't even truly compete, for what does he compete at? PvP? Nah, probably he will aim for just having the highest DPS/eHP, but someone with a bigger wallet can just purchase victory from him, so in the end it's pointless. All the real Spikes probably realized this and left a long time ago.

Johnny, creative player to whom the game is a form of self-expression - It's a wasteland for Johnny. No robust systems for tinkering with his character, not much in the way interesting mechanics, no real depth, and no way to distinguish himself from others.

Timmy, player who enjoys the visceral experience of playing - Timmy can enjoy this game for awhile, maybe even moreso than Spike, but at the end of the journey, he will probably feel a certain inarticulable dissatisfaction with it, and end up on the forums complaining.
07/03/2013 08:31 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
Stat points need depth or they are just an illusion of customization. Trust me the stat system in place is not deep enough to handle stat points. Just tacking on the game just to have it would be a waste of time.


Indeed D2s stat system was to some point just a check list, but then you atleast had a choice (making the character yours to make no matter how much of an "illusion" you think it might have been..)
If Blizz had made a permanent stat and skill system (with much more depth that D2 - it is more than 10 years old) then D3 could acually be called a ARPG... But I think the ship has sailed for that... Can only hope they read what Soulseeker wrote and take it into account next time they try to sell us an ARPG
If you think that any game would be able to make every possible build combination under the sun viable I would like to know what you have been smoking. Even I knew that what Jay was saying at that time did not mean that this game would be able to make all of those builds viable for all situations. Sure we might have more builds for fun and flavor if we wish to use them. But there will only be a handful that are the most efficient at what is important at endgame and that is farming.

That is the way all games are though, there is no game that I know if in history that would be able to make all possible builds viable. Where they are able to do all things efficiently. That is impossible for any game developer.


If you seriously think that "farming" should be the goal and "end game" in any ARPG then you might as well play Pacman (or an MMO)...
How about having an idea for a build that you would enjoy, leveling the character and slowly see if it is an viable option in Inferno?
I acually think that it is good for the game if I can screw up my build because it encourages me to think about the character i wish to create - making it more than an endless grind...


Okay then tell me what else is there to do in this game but to farm. Now show me where in my statement that I said that farming is the only thing that should be in a game. I was just stating a simple fact not saying how I would design a game.

Now as for fun builds I have tried a small handful with a barbarian. All of them were a blast to play, even though I never have had the right gear needed to make them shine.

So then you think that all wizard builds will be viable. Okay then tell me how far this build will go.

1. Storm Armor
2. Energy Armor
3. Ice Armor
4. Familar
5. Magic Weapon
6. Magic Missile.

Passives whatever you like. Tell me how far it will go in MPs solo, I will wait for a response. Show me where the game would give you a handicap to allow such a build to really shine.
First things first

07/03/2013 08:48 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
But there will only be a handful that are the most efficient at what is important at endgame and that is farming.


This is your quote, basically saying that farming is alpha and omega in the "end game" and leveling a character is nothing more than an obsticle before "the grind".. There are other things that should be important in the end, most of all if I can even play it in Inferno.. Don't care how "efficient" my build is to farm with as long as it is fun to create, and play him... But in D3 I cant even "create" a character since we are all the same..

The whole issue with D3 is that there is nothing to do, but to "farm the most efficient way" since everything is automated on your character.. Very much what Soulseeker78 explained earlier so feel that you are making us go in circles.. Maybe it's because you are the Spike gamer who enjoy it this way?

And as I said before -

07/03/2013 08:48 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
I acually think that it is good for the game if I can screw up my build because it encourages me to think about the character i wish to create - making it more than an endless grind...


Here I say that not all builds should be viable otherwise i can't make a mistake in the first place..

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