Game punishes you for being different.

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Mana spenders other than Bats, Bears and Dogs are not worth using.


Bears - ✓✓AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA

Bats - ✓AOE ✓✓DPS ✓MANA

Dogs - ✓✓AOE ✓DPS ✓✓MANA

Acid Cloud - ✓✓AOE X DPS X MANA

Wall of Zombie - ✓AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA X COOLDOWN

Spirit Barrage - X AOE ✓DPS ✓MANA

I greatly agree with the lack of build diversity point. Almost every DH is on a Rapid Fire build, almost every WD is on a Cloud of Bats build, almost every Barb is on Whirlwind build (at least there is another viable build with Hammer of the Ancients but it's still really only 2 builds), almost every Wiz is on CM or Archon, and almost every monk is on Thunderclap/Cyclone build.
07/01/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Grimiku
Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?

Its really sad that the first thing that comes to my mind when I read this is
"Well, looks like COB is going to be nerfed since its OP'.....
The game needs to reward the player for being diverse. Right now, it's only intrinsic.

At the moment, the only way to be diverse, is to fight against what the game is trying to compel you to do. You have to absolutely not care about the only way the game rewards you externally, in order to be diverse. You basically have to only care about the actual combat gameplay and such.

Intrinsic motivation in a world that is powered by greed and external rewards. It really won't matter what Blizzard does to skills, because players will continue to go the path of least resistance no matter what. The external rewards are the exact same, regardless the path. The RMAH exacerbates the situation, because it puts a price tag in real currency, to time spent.

Look at how the achievements in the game work right now, for the specific classes. Once you do them the initial time, they're never in gameplay again, ever.
Now, if there were loot rewards and other goodies for continuously playing solid within a given class then diversity will flood in. It would also add more proficiency in the mix, instead of it being heavily skewed toward efficiency right now.

Players would have more specific and specialized things they choose to do, everytime they load the game up. Maybe a Barbarian wants to continuously Whirlwind pots and barrels... LET THEM, and give them specific external rewards for doing so. Maybe a Demon Hunter wants to see how many monsters they can explode with one Spike Trap... LET THEM, and give them specific external rewards for being able to do it.

It also wouldn't even matter how overpowered or underpowered a specific skill/rune/passive or class would be, because a comparatively underpowered move would just be the challenge players would look for to try and reap the rewards from(and it would be even more rewarding as a result).

How about specific team combos that present new types of rewards? How about a Barbarian pulling a monster in on Ancient Spear Rage Flip right onto a Long Fuse Spike Trap??? Where's the rewards for setting up things like this?

This will not only add more replay value to the game, but put value and reward in actually being diverse.

You could remove the whole NV stack, too, because it wouldn't even be necessary anymore.

The game would ooze with creativity and diversity. Players that are actually proficient with specific runes, regardless of gear, etc.

Targetted Loot could fit right in, as well.
really, how about you keep buffing all skills that aren't used until they hit a use rate of at least 10-20%

a) buff the proc rate, don't make lifesteal and thus dps the sole measure of survival (I mean thats the only reason COB works).

b) buff the resource cost, generation of resources

c) then buff dps
Okay, there are many WD builds, especially pre lvl 60. I remember switching up a bunch for various types of fights and different monsters.

It all depends on what you're doing. Sure, bats give out most damage, but you're gonna have a hard time with certain monsters (fear, knockback, etc etc...)

You would be dumb to use firebats on low mp, obviously bears or acid cloud is the choice here. You want quick runs low mp, so trying to sit in one spot using bats while enemies are running away from you isn't going to cut it.

I've even tried out some spirit skills with rush of essence. Different, and works.

Also, you're probably going to see witch doctors with different passives. Other classes require mandatory passives for builds, while witch doctors can kinda choose what pleases them.

WD ftw!
Skill #1: +% Weapon Damage
Skill #2: +% Weapon Damage
Skill #3: +% Weapon Damage
Skill#N: +% Weapon Damage

BiS item#1: +N% IAS, +N% Critical Damage, +N% Crit. Hit Chance, +N Max. Damage, +N Min. Damage.
BiS item#2: +N% IAS, +N% Critical Damage, +N% Crit. Hit Chance, +N Max. Damage, +N Min. Damage.
BiS item#3: +N% IAS, +N% Critical Damage, +N% Crit. Hit Chance, +N Max. Damage, +N Min. Damage.
BiS item#4: +N% IAS, +N% Critical Damage, +N% Crit. Hit Chance, +N Max. Damage, +N Min. Damage.
BiS item#N: +N% IAS, +N% Critical Damage, +N% Crit. Hit Chance, +N Max. Damage, +N Min. Damage.
In terms of high MP levels
Only choices are dogs,bats,bears

Dogs need specific gear to pull off
So the general population is stuck with bears or bats

Mp3 or lower, almost all kinds of builds are possible

Well for me...I'm glad that at least something works for mp10 that is efficient to run

Barbs also have 3/4 playable builds for high mp, so I'm not complaining for WD
Before bats build, most WDs couldn't even play mp10
I'm happy but would like acid cloud or fetish get some buffs
07/01/2013 06:31 PMPosted by Grimiku
Thank you for your feedback! Build diversity is a big topic, and something we're always interested in hearing about. I think there will always be a build that yields the highest performance, but the question is about the variance. Do you feel that there are no builds even close to the Cloud of Bats build(s)?

I would like to suggest not going further down the skill overbuffing path any longer, as this only accentuates the problem. If you notice, most dominant builds feature overbuffed skills. A few examples:
Rapid Fire
Hammer of the Ancients
Could of Bats
Wave of light

I honestly believe the devs went the wrong way by overscaling healthpools, which is the main reason so many of the current skills aren't even considered, since most of them were tuned for the original inferno with reasonably sized health pools. Ranged playstyles as a whole were completely destroyed by this change unless you stick to lower difficulties. This is more apparent after MP7, where health scales over 1000% (absolutely absurd), forcing the devs to just buff a handful of skills in a FOTM manner. In the same way, lower MP levels where healthpools aren't so drastically overscaled display a lot of options for every class, since so much damage isn't required to run them. Literally any build you can think about can work for MP0-2. Overscaled healthpools don't create any difficulty, they're just a lame DPS check, and down the road it just creates a whole lot of trouble for fine tweaking and balancing due to such large damage scaling ranges derived from gear itself having been obscenely overbuffed as well.

Humongous healthpools make ranged playstyles unviable, because you can't really keep kiting for a long time without having a monumental dps loss, even with relatively high sheet DPS, plus the fact melee combat isn't nearly as unforgiving as it used to be, mostly due to life leech mechanics' excessive efficiency. Under these conditions it's not surprising everyone just adopts a melee build, stack some defensive stats and sit in the same spot spamming their biggest skill till everything drops dead. Do you guys honestly believe this to be coherent with your initial vision for inferno, as a mode that "can never be outleveled" as stated during this conference around 8:07 ?

I would suggest the following:
  • Downsize monster healthpools to reasonable levels (a maximum of 1000% extra health for MP10, scaling up in 10% intervals per MP level). Damage could remain the same, maybe even a bit higher, to what it was on MP10 before it was nerfed.
  • Compensate monster health loss through actual challenge (as opposed to flat dps checks, incoherent with the "viable over optimal" concept also explained in the video). I believe the best way to achieve this would be through monster debuffs, such as those applied by succubi or terror demons. Some new debuffs could be created in order to prompt a strategic approach to the game instead of just going Rambo mode without any real challenge once you have a bit of defense.
  • Adjust damage stat coefficients to adapt to this change, specially trifecta stats, more accurately critical hit damage, the biggest potential offender of all stats, reducing the damage ranges for easier fine tuning down the road. This stat should have never been allowed to go past 100%, imho, but gear value shouldn't suffer from this change, so a proportional adjustment would ensure those who heavily invested into CHD won't loose their investment. I'd suggest a proportional adjustment:
    500CHD = 95% CHD
    400 = 76% CHD
    300CHD = 57%CHD
    The idea is basically to keep the relative value of this particular stat, while reducing the disproportionate damage scaling that makes balancing so difficult right now. Adding diminishing returns as you get closer to 100% may be needed, to prevent the stat from going out of control again. I'm not sure if IAS and CC would need a similar treatment, though
  • Revert the absurdly overbuffed skills, derived from the ridiculous health overscaling. By readjusting healthpools, it will no longer be necessary to have these skills dealing ridiculous amounts of damage, and previously ignored skills will be easier to balance with a smaller damage scale. Granted, some skills do require buffs even under these conditions, but I honestly can't believe you didn't see anything wrong with having to buff a skill like wave of light from 300%~ damage up to 800%~. Smaller tweaks will be easier to do down the road, without just creating new FOTM builds with each patch as it happens since a few patches

  • The reason for these suggestions is essentially making ranged playstyles viable again for added diversity for WDs, Wizards and DHs, while delivering more challenges for melee combat, which is currently a joke thanks mostly to life leech mechanics being way too effective in order to promote smart gameplay rather than mindless facetanking, adding some extra value to skills other than "heavy hitters" for melee folks as well. It doesn't have to be a 1shot fest like the original inferno either, but it should achieve that "unable to outgear" goal above MP7, imho. To spice things up a bit, I would suggest encouraging high MP gameplay through exclusive and meaningful rewards that can't just be sold/purchased in the AH. Something for players to look forward to as an objective for their ingame efforts, as opposed to buying gear just to gring for more gear.
    Okay, there are many WD builds, especially pre lvl 60. I remember switching up a bunch for various types of fights and different monsters.

    Mac yet you choose to use what... COB...

    Pre 60 is not relevant as you spend 99% of your time at 60
    To all those wanting statistics about build diversity, they already exist;

    Paragon 0-49

    1. Witch Doctor (most popular build used by 0.74% of people)
    2. Demon Hunter (most popular build used by 1.70% of people)
    3. Wizard (most popular build used by 3.7% of people)
    4. Monk (most popular build used by 8.79% of people)
    5. Barbarian (most popular build used by 12.61% of people)

    Paragon 50-100

    1. Demon Hunter (most popular build used by 1.77% of people)
    2. Witch Doctor (most popular build used by 4.27% of people)
    3. Wizard (most popular build used by 8.46% of people)
    4. Barbarian (most popular build used by 9.87% of people)
    5. Monk (most popular build used by 11.76% of people)

    So on average the Demon Hunter is the most diverse class closely followed by the Witch Doctor.
    The least diversity is found in Barbarians and Monks.
    07/01/2013 09:09 PMPosted by blackjack
    Okay, there are many WD builds, especially pre lvl 60. I remember switching up a bunch for various types of fights and different monsters.

    Mac yet you choose to use what... COB...

    Pre 60 is not relevant as you spend 99% of your time at 60

    If you're looking at my current build, I was powerleveling people and switched to cob for quick diablo kill.

    So, don't just go making assumptions.

    But yes, when im trying to level, I will do mp10 firebats.
    DE runs, mp5 speed doctor
    I've been playing D3 since release and played D2 since release until D3 came out.

    Untill the recent patch, WD's where virtually unseen. Of all my Friends, 30-40 or so, only one of them used a WD as a prime character. Since V1.08, now every public game has at least one WD in it.
    I'd never seen circle of bats being used before v1.08. First time I saw it I asked the player what it was. Prior to that the very few WD's I'd seen in game used summoned dogs and the big guargantuan thing and threw pots and fiery balls onto things or used the poison darts. That's the WD build dirversity for you. WD's prior to V1.08 where the minority. Now they are everywhere.

    The narrow build diversity is across all of the classes. Wizards for example. I play an arcane raining meteor/ arcane torrent build. This week I ran into another wizard with similar build. Neither of us had ever encountered another wizard using arcane torrent before. Wizards are either spamming explosive blast/frost nova/diamond skin or archon.
    Any other wizard build outside of these two either dies every elite encounter or has a single skill variation such as using meteor to reset cool downs via CM instead of (insert the usual skills)

    Barb's? WW or HotA. I play a different build, the revenger using revenge as a primary skill. I'm alone on this. Other barbs ask or try to convince myself to change to another build. Well I do for Ubers because the revenger cannot beat the ubers on any MP setting easily without Permawrath where as using HotA, he can carry three dead players in mp7 with ease and groups with others on mp10 regularly.
    I also tried to make a Critless Barbarian. Failed. The Barb has to have critical hit change as most of the classes skills are based on spending fury and how do you generate fury with a barb? You have to crit. There's a build that is forced into a narrow build diversity for you. You have to crit and you have to permawrath.

    DH? well, there is a bit of diversity there. Rapid fire, bola shot, ball lightning. But it's quickly swinging towards Rapid fire since that skill was beefed in v1.08. But every build still has to use gloom to survive. The DH really only has 5 selectable skills to choose from.

    Build diversity in d3? Non existent compared to D2. For the D2 Paladin alone there is the Zealot, Avenger, Hammerdin, Elemental templar, Smiter, Justiciar and Martyr just to name a few. The builds just for that one class numbers about the same as all the viable builds in D3 across all five classes.
    07/01/2013 07:14 PMPosted by SFCMac
    I guess I am part of the 5% on my barb. I used to run a sprint/ww build but found it to have no challenge whatsoever and have since changed to a rend/hota build and am actually enjoying my barb again.

    Throw barb for me :3
    Grim, mind looking at this post? This is just one of many many skills that have horrible runes that need to be changed.
    just leave the 4 classes that already has some viable skills for the MP system and fully rework DH, so it doesn't suck that much anymore. all the other classes that already had decent skills for the higher MPs just became more OP after you changed skills, the DH buff only makes it so you can hold 1 key instead of placing traps in like 10-20% of the time and then shoot arrows in the other 80-90%

    and yeah, bears are also really good for WD, and sacrifice (although it needs the ilvl63 offhand to really be on par with the other good skills in terms of dps)
    True build diversity - to achieve this please, please consider making crowd control matter more. What I mean by this is that affixes like slow, freeze, knock back must not be over ridden by the players DPS .. Make crowd control for all classes must be more effective against a mob / elite than DPS .. the mobs must have better ways to combat DPS beside reflect damage. For example mobs should have a boost for too much damage too quick. Like a revenge system. Rage mood for taking too much damage too fast. Making them too hard to connect with an attack, the only way to get them again is to snare them, trap them, or get hit by them etc..
    Not only you are being punished for being different, you are even being bullied in-game for not having that cookie-cutter build they prefer for efficiency.

    Can we guys just have a "fun" game and stop worrying much about being always fast and kill every monsters in a split second?

    I got insulted in-game by some random pub game guy and said to me "Worst barb build ever!", Referring to my weapon throw-merciless assault-ancient spear barb!
    And some other guy with a bit less offensive for my Death Blossom-Blizzard Wiz and said
    "You build is not helping, im not trying to insult you but you could have just use another "useful" build?", obviously referring to a perma-freeze or Archon build =_=

    Well, well, i don't know who i can blame with this kind of behavior.
    These players or these developers who don't know how to balance the skills, in terms of efficiency and damage.
    07/01/2013 05:07 PMPosted by blackjack
    Build diversity is joke in this game.

    Took you 1 year to realize that? :)

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