Game punishes you for being different.

General Discussion
Prev 1 7 8 9 13 Next
I somewhat understand your post, but I completely disagree with the class you chose to point out. As I saw someone else mention, Witchdoctors have THE most build diversity out of any class, and to state that nothing compares with cloud of bats is obnoxious. I can tell you for a fact that a 0 dog build is incredibly competitive and the health globes provided from it are far more useful in group play.

There, off the top of my head a build that competes with CoB.
JaqenHghar
View profile

Simply tweaking some numbers on a couple of skills ain't going to be enough to fix the underlying problem - we are all the same...
Since every wiz and every baba is identical every individual skill in this system has to be "balanced" in order to create diverce builds.. And that is just not an ARPG design, but a MMO...
Like some guy said - D2 overcame this by giving skill points so we could choose what skill we wanted to kick !@#...
In D3's LVL - Unlock system Blizz does that for us and before the core system in this game is fixed to give choices in our build it will always be this "one build will rule them all"

It is obvious that the devs of this game only knows how to make MMOs...

Holy s^^t! Someone who actually reads all the postings! +1

"Some guy", hmmm, maybe that's what I'll name my next barb, LOL! ;-)

Hehe sry for the name - or lack of same (didn't expect anyone to read ;) )

I follow these threads to see if Blizz is acually aware of the fact that they are trying to make an ARPG based on a MMO system.. Many of the problems in D3 are based on the design of only needing one charater per class... And the Paragon System is a big symptom of that!
Such a big gamehouse as Blizz should atleast have their genres in order so its quite entertaining (and very disparing and destructive for the Diablo title) to see them trying to please all..
Let the MMO players have WOW and let the ARPG players have Diablo is my simply advise.. Many problems in D3 can be solved if Blizz realise this..

I agree completely.


Hehe unfortunately alot of posters seems to have accepted this fact and are trying to work around it in all sorts of manners.
I guess must people who expected to play an ARPG have left D3 a long time ago :/
So many good threads in the early days of the forum on how to acually fix this arcade, all of them buried and forgotten :(

Item patch - The items need a big patch (very boring items compared to D2), but it won't improve on character customization only the gear we equip, even if it had + to some skills its still just the gear.
The automated stats and the LVL-Unlock skill system belongs in a FPS or an arcade not a ARPG. No matter how new and innovative Blizz tried to be it has simple removed the RPG aspect in Diablo... And that pissed off many a fan of Diablo... Hope they revamp the intire system though it is very unlikely :(

Self found server - instead of just reintroducing a ladder with a drop rate independent of the AH/RMAH... (unlikely Blizz will make a ladder since ppl wont buy gear with real money that will reset after XX time - just my thought on why they won't)

We just have to give them flac on the forums so Blizz realise that this character system simply is too dumbed down for anyone looking to enjoy a good ARPG ;D

One more thing - Set the items free! This BOA approach have no place in Diablo and are only a lazy band-aid to the failed AH system.. (Only further proves that the devs know nothing on how to make a ARPG when they introduce BOAs)
PULL UP TO THE SCENE WITH MY CEILING MISSIN
I wanted to jump in and thank everyone for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I hope it keeps going. There are some great conversations here, and very interesting to read. I also want to make sure you know that I've been compiling notes based on your feedback, and look forward to passing it along.
Do you honestly think Blizzard would have a skill doing 10 times weapon damage? ESPECIALLY after they nerfed the Demon Hunter's Trail of Cinders rune for Vault, which did 15x weapon damage? I think not. :P

They buffed monks bells to do up to 1200% weapon damage after the TOC nerf, so I think so.
07/02/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Grimiku
I wanted to jump in and thank everyone for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I hope it keeps going. There are some great conversations here, and very interesting to read. I also want to make sure you know that I've been compiling notes based on your feedback, and look forward to passing it along.


Hopefully the post I mentioned before is in there, my god BR is so broken.
07/01/2013 05:18 PMPosted by Nishi
The problem is when Blizzard came up with this skill system, they imagined people choosing whatever random abilities they liked, without too much concern with how these skills worked together. It's hard to pick the skills you like, if there are skills that add so much to survivability and efficiency that you'd be foolish to use anything else.

that still doesnt really answer why for example earthquake and the ancients are like 1000 times worse then The Berzerker when you compare those directly as skills.

Even if they have been meand to be chosen randomly, more or less, then its pretty obvious, that both the Ancients and Earthquake pretty much suck. And not only because of the ToC rune on the Berzerker. The Berzerker simply offers you a lot more then the other skills, like more damage and more control.
07/02/2013 10:41 AMPosted by CrniVuk
The problem is when Blizzard came up with this skill system, they imagined people choosing whatever random abilities they liked, without too much concern with how these skills worked together. It's hard to pick the skills you like, if there are skills that add so much to survivability and efficiency that you'd be foolish to use anything else.

that still doesnt really answer why for example earthquake and the ancients are like 1000 times worse then The Berzerker when you compare those directly as skills.

Even if they have been meand to be chosen randomly, more or less, then its pretty obvious, that both the Ancients and Earthquake pretty much suck. And not only because of the ToC rune on the Berzerker. The Berzerker simply offers you a lot more then the other skills, like more damage and more control.


Imagine a gear set that brings Earthquakes CD to 0 lol
try rolling dh and see how well that goes. The game punishes you for picking the class basically.
Aside from the weak builds the class has(spells/runes), the class itself is not effective in any way compared to other classes.
Weak damage, take billions to upgrade which only yields extremely weak results. generally really low eDPS compared to other classes.

while I agree the game does not offer many options for different builds, I seriously hope they do something about dh in general. The class is in ruins.
In what universe do you have a skill that does 1000% damage


meh, i can cheese MP10 with a rend
build, although it takes awhile.
I ve made a try. I loved acid cloud 24 radius for a long time so I go down to mp5 and I couldnt done it with this while I am doing mp8 act I like boss with CoB. Something definitelly wrong about that skill balance.


that still doesnt really answer why for example earthquake and the ancients are like 1000 times worse then The Berzerker when you compare those directly as skills.

Even if they have been meand to be chosen randomly, more or less, then its pretty obvious, that both the Ancients and Earthquake pretty much suck. And not only because of the ToC rune on the Berzerker. The Berzerker simply offers you a lot more then the other skills, like more damage and more control.


Imagine a gear set that brings Earthquakes CD to 0 lol


It did exist for another class...kinda
ToC for dh pre-nerf

Even I had to agree it was downright super OP back then but I could see it being viable in today's meta
07/02/2013 10:44 AMPosted by ISmkPotatoes
Imagine a gear set that brings Earthquakes CD to 0 lol

Then you'd have a fissure druid from D2.
There is build diversity but as the OP has mentioned, you get punished for it.

You have to look at the way farming is done in this game. Unlike Diablo 2, you can't spend 5-10 min killing a boss and getting a good chance at a legendary. You need to spend at least 30 min or so to build up neph buffs to get an okay chance at a legendary.

That difference is what causes players to feel punished for having different builds that may be a bit inefficient. In D2, the inefficiency may add on another min or two to the farming time. However, in D3, the inefficiency starts adding on time per champion pack and you could end up having an additional 30 minutes to an hour for a run.
Cloud of Bats is fine. It has severe drawbacks vs. knockback and nightmarish elites.

The problem with Witch Doctor build diversity is that many of our skills are DoTs, and these are not balanced properly for a 6-skill UI.

It's much better to take one powerful skill like Cloud of Bats or Zombie Bears and buff it with synergies like Soul Harvest, Hex or Mass Confusion (which can also be used while channeling other skills) than it is to use 3 or 4 or more DoTs like Acid Cloud, Wall of Zombies, Grasp of the Dead, and Locust Swarm that suffer from high mana costs, long cooldowns/damage that does not stack, clunky cast times, random proc coefficients, spotty damage, and strange gear requirements.

-Allowing DoT damage to stack would help a lot.

-Allowing synergies for having multiple types of DoTs on the same target would help.

-Primaries should be free to cast and have game-changing utility or damage.

Let's not also ignore the 800-lb gorilla in the room: Witch Doctors are not a ranged class. I can count on 1 hand the number of WD abilities that can do damage off screen, and that damage is not noticeable. Look at our powerful abilities:

Cloud of Bats: melee range
Zombie Bears: mid range
Plague Bats: mid range
Well of Souls: mid range
Zero Dog: mid range

The same goes for our wet noodle abilities. If we are a melee/mid range class, we need to be able to take a punch like a melee/mid ranged class. I don't think we need the full 30% damage reduction that Barbs and Monks have, but something in-between would be a good compromise.

Easy solution: give Jungle Fortitude 15% damage reduction to all WDs, opening up a passive slot for more build diversity.
07/02/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Grimiku
I wanted to jump in and thank everyone for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I hope it keeps going. There are some great conversations here, and very interesting to read. I also want to make sure you know that I've been compiling notes based on your feedback, and look forward to passing it along.


Please put in your notes that one of the main reasons for the gap between the very efficient builds and the not so efficient builds is the generation of resources. Resource generating primary skills simply are not effective enough. Thus most of the efficient builds you see are finding ways to bypass the need to use a resource generator. CM wiz generate AP on crits. DH use RF because you can build to channel infinitely. Same with CoB WD. Its simply not worth using a skill with a high resource cost if you have to spam weak resource generators more than you spam nukes. I made a thread regarding this a few weeks back but only got one reply and not sure if any blues saw it.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9377378456
To think, this wouldn't be an issue if you had skill trees. You know, allocated points to skills you like and boost their damage that way. Instead of the current system, where the damage is static and decided by a team that doesn't even PLAY the game.
07/02/2013 10:27 AMPosted by Grimiku
I wanted to jump in and thank everyone for sharing your thoughts in this discussion. I hope it keeps going. There are some great conversations here, and very interesting to read. I also want to make sure you know that I've been compiling notes based on your feedback, and look forward to passing it along.


Hope you took some notes from the convo between JaqenHghar and I..

Its really a destructive issue the devs have created for Diablo 3 in an attempt to please both the Diablo and World of Warcraft fanbase... Not to bash MMOs or WoW in any form, they are just two different genres with very different character (and item) designs... Anyway hope you read and agree that the current skill design in D3 only encourages one character per class (great for MMOs, very bad for ARPGs) and de-facto are making items alpha and omega...
07/02/2013 11:38 AMPosted by Cerealkiller
To think, this wouldn't be an issue if you had skill trees. You know, allocated points to skills you like and boost their damage that way. Instead of the current system, where the damage is static and decided by a team that doesn't even PLAY the game.


Skill trees and allocating points would not solve the problem. 20 points in an OP skill will still be better than 20 points in a crappy skill. Its the skills themselves that need to be balanced to be as effective as the next skill. That is what made the skills in D2 better. Not the fact that they were in skill trees with points. No one ever dumped points into a crappy skill and thought it made it worth using over the good skills with the same amount of points.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum