Loot 2.0, discovering its true potential.

General Discussion
Prev 1 26 27 28 47 Next
I hope none of this is implemented.

Most of OP's ideas wouldn't fix anything.

But at least i have confidence that the dev team behind d3 can actually assess which things would be good for the game and which would break it completely... unlike the general forum population out of which 90% don't even have a clue how any of these changes would really impact the game.


I mean these are all OBVIOUS flaws that needs to be addressed instead the OP is allowing all the mindless hordes to upvote his ideas without revising them in light of the flaws

(I most certainly hope to be wrong and he is revising his ideas , but in the meantime, really how about withdrawing/deleting the posts/article? I mean, not all are bad (but nothing he mentions actually changes anything substatially. I mean, just project in the future where everyone has 5000hrs in game MINIMUM, crafted every thing that can be crafted), you'll be back to square one.).

because really the fear is, if the mindless hordes who don't actually understand the ramifications makes noise enough, and the devs are pressurised by either a lack of common sense or marketing/pr people into "this idea seems beloved by so many people, go implement it verbatim", then we would have an even worse dungheap of a game.


Not gonna happen.

Look at WoW and the forums incessant whines. And that game has a subscription so if they were to actually implement what the whiners wanted that would have been the game to do it.

I have no doubt all the future changes won't be affected in any way by the forum. It's always the vocal minority that even bothers posting/reading forums and they know that better than any of us.


yeah. but then all the nerfs to inferno, etc. which after 1.04 were quite unnecessary, yet still happened.

eg: changes to RD , invulnerable minions etc..

i mean, imagine, you bring back invulnerable minions today, or the enrage mechanic today, it wouldn't even matter since nearly everyone is facerolling mp10

it was a kneejerk response to player demand.

*ps: please unquote me.. lol.. I revised my post cos I don't want to sound like an TOTAL a.s.s

Most of OP's ideas wouldn't fix anything.

But at least i have confidence that the dev team behind d3 can actually assess which things would be good for the game and which would break it completely... unlike the general forum population out of which 90% don't even have a clue how any of these changes would really impact the game.


I mean these are all OBVIOUS flaws that needs to be addressed instead the OP is allowing all the mindless hordes to upvote his ideas without revising them in light of the flaws

(I most certainly hope to be wrong and he is revising his ideas , but in the meantime, really how about withdrawing/deleting the posts/article? I mean, not all are bad (but nothing he mentions actually changes anything substatially. I mean, just project in the future where everyone has 5000hrs in game MINIMUM, crafted every thing that can be crafted), you'll be back to square one.).

because really the fear is, if the mindless hordes who don't actually understand the ramifications makes noise enough, and the devs are pressurised by either a lack of common sense or marketing/pr people into "this idea seems beloved by so many people, go implement it verbatim", then we would have an even worse dungheap of a game.


I never try to update my original posts, I'd rather have everyone point out the flaws and actually provide the solutions or criticism in the comments. I know there's a flaw in the MF/NV stacks and there's already been some good comments on how to fix it.
07/24/2013 11:48 PMPosted by chrisloup
I mean these are all OBVIOUS flaws that needs to be addressed instead the OP is allowing all the mindless hordes to upvote his ideas without revising them in light of the flaws


Take a look at some posts, mine included, and the responses Monstrous has given as a result of the input from those posts. Never did he say his ideas were set in stone, and he is quite open to feedback/criticism. This statement from you, however offers no criticism other than attacking him without offering something of your own.

07/24/2013 11:48 PMPosted by chrisloup
(I most certainly hope to be wrong and he is revising his ideas , but in the meantime, really how about withdrawing/deleting the posts/article? I mean, not all are bad (but nothing he mentions actually changes anything substatially. I mean, just project in the future where everyone has 5000hrs in game MINIMUM, crafted every thing that can be crafted), you'll be back to square one.).


Why should he withdraw the post? It's spurred some other good ideas and criticisms too. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it has to just be destroyed. You can't really revise without the original work now, can you?

07/24/2013 11:48 PMPosted by chrisloup
because really the fear is, if the mindless hordes who don't actually understand the ramifications makes noise enough, and the devs are pressurised by either a lack of common sense or marketing/pr people into "this idea seems beloved by so many people, go implement it verbatim", then we would have an even worse dungheap of a game.


Instead of calling everybody mindless hordes, why don't you offer some constructive criticism yourself, preferrably without the hostile attitude.

07/24/2013 11:54 PMPosted by chrisloup
i mean, imagine, you bring back invulnerable minions today, or the enrage mechanic today, it wouldn't even matter since nearly everyone is facerolling mp10


Unless you have the data to back up that claim, it isn't going to have much merit. And it's a straw man argument given the subject matter.

07/24/2013 11:54 PMPosted by chrisloup
it was a kneejerk response to player demand.


The two previous threads created by Monstrous over on DiabloFans would indicate otherwise.

07/24/2013 11:51 PMPosted by Skillol
Look at WoW and the forums incessant whines. And that game has a subscription so if they were to actually implement what the whiners wanted that would have been the game to do it.


Please stop with the attacks on the people posting here. This is a discussion thread, not a flaming thread.

07/24/2013 11:51 PMPosted by Skillol
I have no doubt all the future changes won't be affected in any way by the forum. It's always the vocal minority that even bothers posting/reading forums and they know that better than any of us.


If you feel that way then please, by all means let us discuss this topic without the vitriol, since according to you our feedback doesn't matter anyway.

If the two of you don't like Monstrous' ideas, say so and back up what you say with info on why you don't like it and what you think can be done differently or to improve the ideas without the attacks.
________________________________________________
Diablo III and World of Warcraft Technical Support MVP
Official Mac Tech Support Forum Cookie™ (Mint Chocolate Chip)
Guaranteed tasty; Potentially volatile when dipped in General Forums Syrup®
Caution: This cookie bites back.
I'm from the EU, don't post much.
I just saw this being advertised on DF.com. Had a read on the OPs thoughts, I just wanted to login and post on the official forums to show my support for such Ideas.
I support a massive change from the current AH farm, If it means implementation of this man's ideas or blizzards own. Either way things need to change drastically. Current game is unplayable for me and has been since I hit the level cap long ago : (.
I look forward to Blizzards blog post the itemization patch.
Thank you OP and Blizzard.
@thetias, the point being, the criticism I would make is already echoed by others, I should not need to make the same point twice. but it seemsi do after all.

A good designer should be able to envision all the pros and cons (after all, design is a matter of tradeoffs, you are trading something for another so you got to know what you are giving up)

Lets go through the points (I'm not sure if I omitted any)

1) rarity: fine, you want to drop rarity rates of legends. I have no comments on that.
just know that value and rarity goes hand in hand.

if 25 andys drop to 1 mempo,. but the mempo i find isn't worth 25 andys, then that mempo sucks. which is the case these days. any no crit mempo = brimstone.

so do we want to be a situation where your grandfather with a 1:500,000 drop is automatically the BIS weapon for 2handers? since compared to the more common 1:5000 drops, it is so much more rare.

also: is it BOA? otherwise lets look back at d2, how often did someone find a zod? where is the most common source of zods? (bots/dupers) , is that going to change once you increase rarity? who will profit more? player or bot? if I wanted a zod today as a fresh new player, whats the most likely way I can get it? ($2.50) or farm forever? i'm just saying ultra rare is pointless.

have we really changed anything if thats the case from what we have today where skorn is bis for 2handers

is power commensurate to rarity? if its not, then its needless to give something such a huge rarity disparity. I would prefer a flat rarity with each item supporting some build variant. otherwise we are back to today where BIS legendaries are needed by every build.

also: this changes nothing. its not really content. I'm sure loot 2.0 changes by the devs themselves have plans, I just hope its not too conservative. I think the ideal here is to
a) envision a build for mp10 using existing skills
b) make the gear for that build available.

2)
your legendary "find an item bonus" also does nothing new. because its merely simple dps upgrade. I have complete all achievements in game, and found every single legendary multiple times, and plenty of people on the quest forums have done the same. it ends up a binary solution, eg: either you are unlucky and never find and complete the set, or you hit the jackpot and find it. meanwhile, it delays the inevitable, what happens after i find all legends again? then we are back to where we are today.

(and thats not putting in consideration whether you want it self found, or unid sales allowed)

3) lore : fine if they have time/resources, otherwise, this adds nothing substantial, in that lore can be on a website. done by the webdevs, rather than taking time in game by game devs/beta testers etc. also, the amount of translation/voice over work going on this. I'm not sure if its a necessary part of the in game experience

4) NV Stack/MF Changes: your mf suggestion negates short games, and negates small time investments building towards a larger reward, something that paragon level does. now .
in fact, I would think paragon levels are too short and plvl 1000 (100x10) is something that should be worked on.

eg:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1iv13f/on_the_drawing_board_shared_paragon_levels/cb8bym9

in otherwords, I believe a design focus on "slow and steady can win the race" or "every little drop counts", right now the game gives you rewards subject to RNG. even if you raise nv buffs so that 500% is the norm is no guarantee of rewards as well. you can have the worst luck and only ever find ageless mights.

there is essentially nothing wrong with MF today. its just whether people think its too random to be rewarding so if you think its too random, then get a meter bar (eg: font of rewards) that filling up exp in will populate that bar, you can have death penalties/debuffs applied to the font of rewards, you can use the font of rewards for anything. (eg: fill up the font = new crafting options appear for you, or a guranteed legendary/buff/whatever reward. death therefore has an opportunity cost). a mechanism like that can eliminate RNG yet keep some form of reward cycle going on .

right now the problem in game is finding an legend, and finding that its crap. (most probably cos everyone else is also finding legends, so only those that can fit in the first 5 pages of the ah are of any value). so someway of increasing the value of "crap legends"/salvage material such that one can make a living selling crap legends to earn "godly 2b-50b items" would be the solution

eg: (again, this is by no means a perfect idea, but something i came up in minutes)
http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/1irhz0/loot_20_discovering_its_true_potential/cb7p7q3

5)
your crafting plans merely delay the inevitable. increases the need for even more inventory shuffling, and ultimately doesn't do anything new. as it is, finding brimstones isn't sufficiently satisfactory, since we can only use it for amulets, and you want to introduce multiple brimstones to what end? it doesn't add any new content, at most it just adds dps. it is also not fun.

I think you need to look into the issue of how can you make the game fun for someone who has put in 5000hrs into the game. (I'm already past 2000hrs) where they have done everything, upgraded everything (for an effective ROI) etc. adding more crafting does not necessarily make things fun especially in light of inventory drudgery.

crafting is merely a means of deemphasing the AH. by making things troublesome/reduction of availability = pushing people to ah/d2jsp. eg: while I do love ubers fighting, the hellfire ring itself is subject to so much rng, I have never bothered despite > 1000 rings. the ability to self craft (for cm wizard a high int, ar, 9%ias, 6%cc ring was never an option).

Don't make crafting/collecting of parts/inventory management the overweening focus for the game. collectiing tons of critter parts for inventory management is not fun. . better yet there should be a segregation of "farm slots" and "craft slots" so that there is no competition . its an arpg and crafting ain't action

6) mystic/upgrading of gear to max level (eg: a 7/3 mempo upgrades to a 9/6). this is frankly game breaking territory.

I am reminded of this joke

guy finds an old lamp on the beach. He rubs it and a genie appears. The genie informs the guy that he will grant him three wishes, but whatever he wishes for his ex-wife will get twice as much.

"How about $1,000,000.00?" he asks.

"Your ex-wife now has $2,000,000.00 in her account as well," says the genie.

"I've always wanted a Benz, how about that?" he asks.

"Your ex-wife now has two of those cars," says the genie.

The guy stopped to think for a minute, knowing that he had only one wish left. "Could you beat me half to death?"


in this case, the ex wife is botters. so we end up with another lottery or bust scenario here. you either are so lucky you find purple uniques all the time and can buy the gold from the rmah/botter sites which trivialises it into a simple dps upgrade, OR purple uniques become so rare, people who find it start selling them on the forum for the kill. again, its not a fun mechanic.

if you want it to be fun, then something like a 24hour buff of some kind from finding a purple WILL most certainly make finding purples fun. doing trio puzzles of purples (eg: finding bashiok + vicious grey turkey + bashface = supreme kaiju killing buff extension 1 month etc) will make things pleasant yet not mandatory to do.

7) Gem removal: I don't see how removing gems that is of benefit to the self found ironborn/hardcore is of any benefit. but whatever if you are saying they jump tiers and are available sooner (eg; removal of a level 3/4 gems emans you can find a lvl 5 gem where you used to find lvl 3 = fine to me)

8) legendary items/skill runes: I'm not sure the point of this.
http://gdcvault.com/play/1017794/Through-the-Grinder-Refining-Diablo

if you read through, the runes we have today were simply removed from items and made available to players. I don't see how going backwards and putting runes from skills back into items does anything.

eg: if someone has geared specifically to be a WW barb, and finds just 1 item of the puzzle (eg:you need 4) to make a new build, will he change his build?

I mean programmatically in order to accomodate your design, they basically already have to code all new skills anyway, then they OBFUSCATE the availability of skills by hiding them until you find an item.

so what happens is counter design, you reduce experimentation, you put in analysis paralysis (should I keep this item in case I need it eventually to try out a new build, or should I sell the item so that I can strengten my current build).

it seems to me, you can best address this by simply more runes/skills (ie: quadruple the number of skills or runes we currently have)

going at it piecemeal with obfuscated skill runes simply is going to prevent players from finding/using new possible builds (eg: you have item runes that collectively make a new build that is superior without having to use into the fray/ wotb, except everyone who finds the replacement for into the fray may not find the matching piece for the wotb replacement, or is priced out of reach on the ah)

right now, all our runes are the equivalent of max level skills, and the game was balanced around the runes having those values. perhaps the complaints about skill trees and such is because people want their illusion of customisability. (ie: the micromanager who always wants to make some changes to the powerpoint slide so that his impact is seen even though its mostly irrelevant? so it may come that we may need some irrelevant illusions so that players can have the illusion of customisation)

any dps upgrade definitely has to take into player vs monster balance. sure, this design has been implemented now to be self correcting in the form of monster power, but more dps upgrades simply necessitate the eventual mp11-20.

in terms of effects on the player base, this means the gap between the haves and have nots is widened. (cos someone who farms mp20 efficiently will be a vast magnitude of return compared to someone who can farm mp10 only.) it would be like the return of the days when invulnerable archon wizards were farming act3/act4 and the rest of us scrubs were farming act1. I would be very vary of any plans to increase DPS without consideration of this factor.

---
meanwhile, This thread post is still getting responses such as "DO ALL THIS", "HIRE THIS GUY ", "THIS FIXES EVERYTHING"

which is where the problem lies, there appears to the total lack of thought in the upvote wagon. I mean, OP, do you think your plans are flawless? then why are you encouraging blind upvoting by not doing anything to correct posts such as "this fixes everything"

I hardly see any of these changes as proposed as going to actually encouraging people to farm another few thousand rounds of act1-3 or that it creates fun. (at best your crafting changes is so much akin to maplestory potential cubing..it become mandatory but it ain't fun)

if you don't want to withdraw the posts, how about highlighting the criticisms on page 1 so that people can see it and know its flawed. rather than taking it as though you found the holy grail and is now the saviour of the game, and when implemented, they find out it doesn't match their expectation as a total game changer. then what?

you literally can see even after this post, so many "bandwagoners" will continue to "omg this fix everything) ,.
Some great ideas OP. Hope some of it is taken into consideration. Maybe I'll re-install!
I really enjoyed Magic Find in Diablo2. Considering I had to actually farm monsters to find gear instead of farming the Auction House, Magic Find was a big part of the game. But now Magic Find is basically handed to us for free with paragon levels which I don't like, I want to be able to use it in my gear. At the time it was an ok band aid fix with paragon levels but I don't think it should be the final solution. Blizzard needs to get the MF affix back to being a worth while affix to have on items.
I really enjoyed Magic Find in Diablo2. Considering I had to actually farm monsters to find gear instead of farming the Auction House, Magic Find was a big part of the game. But now Magic Find is basically handed to us for free with paragon levels. At the time it was an ok band aid fix with paragon levels but I don't think it should be the final solution. Blizzard needs to get the MF affix back to being a worth while affix to have on items.


And go back to inferno 1.0 days where we were switching to MF gear right before killing an elite pack / boss? No thanks, outdated mechanics need to stay in the past.


There were a lot of things effecting the game back then.
For one inferno was extremely difficult the gear people found was really bad. So trying to find good DPS gear with also Magic Find seemed ridiculous back then - it made sense to have the best possible dps gear and then the 2nd set of MF gear.
The second thing are the drops are still bad in the first place. Even now it would be rediculous to find good dps gear with a MF affix slapped on as well. The gear affix spawns are "too tight" they need more room to breathe so that affixes like MF don't seem like such a burden.
Even now can you imagine trying to find a Mempo with 6% crit but also 30% Magic Find, this is what I mean when gear needs more breathing room.


There were a lot of things effecting the game back then.
For one inferno was extremely difficult the gear people found was really bad. So trying to find good DPS gear with also Magic Find seemed ridiculous back then - it made sense to have the best possible dps gear and then the 2nd set of MF gear.
The second thing are the drops are still bad in the first place. Even now it would be rediculous to find good dps gear with a MF affix slapped on as well. The gear affix spawns are "too tight" they need more room to breathe so that affixes like MF don't seem like such a burden.
Even now can you imagine trying to find a Mempo with 6% crit but also 30% Magic Find, this is what I mean when gear needs more breathing room.


You do realize items have a budget stat right?

So if an item rolls MF it eats out of a useful stat. Again, no thanks.


I believe my last sentence addresses this. We need the ability to not have to choose to replace useful stats with other ones like MF.
07/25/2013 12:48 AMPosted by NOLLegendz
I really enjoyed Magic Find in Diablo2. Considering I had to actually farm monsters to find gear instead of farming the Auction House, Magic Find was a big part of the game. But now Magic Find is basically handed to us for free with paragon levels which I don't like, I want to be able to use it in my gear. At the time it was an ok band aid fix with paragon levels but I don't think it should be the final solution. Blizzard needs to get the MF affix back to being a worth while affix to have on items.


I really enjoyed MF as well on items back in D2. If you were anything like me though you'd carry around MF items in your bags to swap in just as you were about to kill a boss, exactly like we were doing during release of D3.

If there was Mf on gear what do you propose be done to avoid the MF gear swapping? Removing NV for every slot item changed? I'm don't think that would be very fun for players accidentally losing stacks.

I believe my last sentence addresses this. We need the ability to not have to choose to replace useful stats with other ones like MF.


Are you suggesting that MF have a chance to roll on every item as an extra property all together? Something like an item either rolls with MF or no MF, if it does it will roll with a random value? If that's the case it might turn into the same deal with sockets or crit, if an item doesn't roll Magic Find, the item might be considered useless.

I believe my last sentence addresses this. We need the ability to not have to choose to replace useful stats with other ones like MF.


Are you suggesting that MF have a chance to roll on every item as an extra property all together? Something like an item either rolls with MF or no MF, if it does it will roll with a random value?


I'm saying the items need "more breathing room". For example Tal Rashas chest as a Wizard, I'm most likely going to choose the random Affix that I want to be All Resists because this is a very important stat to farm MP10. I would never choose MF over it because 25% Magic find for one thing makes NO difference anyways and also because in comparison it doesn't compare - if it was buffed to being able to roll up to 100% Magic Find, well that is quite a bit to be honest it might be an ok trade off right?. So if there was some more thought put into it there could be a way but I think there are too many "required" affixes for an item before we go into secondary preference territory like Magic Find or Life Regeneration.


Are you suggesting that MF have a chance to roll on every item as an extra property all together? Something like an item either rolls with MF or no MF, if it does it will roll with a random value?


I'm saying the items need "more breathing room". For example Tal Rashas chest as a Wizard, I'm most likely going to choose the random Affix that I want to be All Resists because this is a very important stat to farm MP10. I would never choose MF over it because 25% Magic find for one thing makes NO difference anyways and also because in comparison it doesn't compare - if it was buffed to being able to roll up to 100% Magic Find, well that is quite a bit to be honest it might be an ok trade off right?. So if there was some more thought put into it there could be a way but I think there are too many "required" affixes for an item before we go into secondary preference territory like Magic Find or Life Regeneration.


A solution could be to break up the stats into different groups that roll on items. That way that all resist isn't competing with magic find. I'm not sure what these groups would be, but that could be a solution at some point.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum