Zerg Discussion

Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
How to beat Terran as Zerg! Read and WIN!!!!! Here is my in-depth look on how not to suck when playing Zerg against a Terran player of normal skill level (ie. not a professional gamer) Were going to start with basic build order and scouting information for those players that may not know. Always: -Build your first overseer at 9 supply -Send your first scout between 9-12 supply If you don't understand why Zerg is so powerful you need to understand two things: 1. You have to scout always. (As they say: "Knowing is half the battle") 2. We can switch tech faster than any other race These go hand in hand and will make sense later on. Now that we have our basic opener down from here we can go one of two ways: Path 1: Fast Expand - Meaning you're going to be getting your natural expansion up between the supply of 13-18 or so. A good build order for this is the 14 pool 15 hatch (IdrA). If you do this build you're going to need to be very aware of what your opponent is doing and if he's going to put on early pressure. Make sure if you see extra rax thrown up or a large force being made up behind his wall that you throw down some spine crawlers and make an extra queen. For those of you that don't know the queen's Transfuse ability combined with a few spinecrawlers and some speedlings make easy work of almost any early push unit composition. Path 2: One Base Play - Meaning you're going to be getting units for early pressure, and stabilizing before expanding (don't forget you still need to expand, just not too early). A good build order for this is 13 extractor 13 pool (just typical 1 base build order). What you're going to want to do is throw 3 drones on the extractor right away, and if executed correctly the second your pool finishes you are able to start Metabolic Boost (ie. Crackling upgrade). This will be around 16 supply. This is going to allow you to have map control and take advantage of your mobility. Now here's where we get into the fun part. Taking advantage of linear tech and forcing the build: What I mean by this is we can use our knowledge of terran unit composition and constructed buildings to force a certain play style. The prime example: -Mutalisk harass is your best friend. -Mutalisk harass is your best friend. -Mutalisk harass..... Okay okay you get it. Here is what harassing with mutalisks does for you: Once there are mutalisks on the field the dynamics of the game change a ton for the Terran player. He will now have to: -Throw down an engineering bay and start pouring money into turrets -Produce more marines -Pull back his army to deal with the harass -Lose map control He will most likely: -Respond with Thors OR -Respond with Vikings Okay, so where are we now? We have: -Map control -Mobility -Scouting advantage (our mutas have been flying around seeing everything) -Ability to expand and tech With the speedlings and mutalisks roaming the map the Terran player is now forced into semi-turtle mode while he finds a way to deal with this threat. Now this is where we take advantage of our game knowledge and tech tree style. Let's look at the 2 scenario's we've forced the Terran player into: -Thors: Our response: If we see that the player has decided to counter our mutalisks with Thors that is fantastic. It's GREAT! We should be jumping for joy right now because we just won the game. What you do when you have discovered he is producing thors (he will have to throw down an armory which is the dead give away) is put down an Infestor Pit. For those of you who do not know Infestors are the *!!@. They are fantastic. They are our only combat caster, and they have just the right spells to deal with what we'll be up against. The Terran player is going to have a combination of Thors, with some hellions, marines, and maybe marauders. This seem's scary, but with our new found knowledge is very easy to deal with. Once that Infestor Pit finishes you want to tech starting energy right away followed by Neural Parasite. Now what the Infestor does for us is: -Takes control of their Thor's (always an 'lolololol' moment) -Prevents the enemy from microing his units by using Fungal Growth -Becomes mobile mineral line harassment with burrow/infested marine (not as important) The infestor not only counters his Thor, but also counters his MMM ball. The clumped units are prime targets for Fungal Growth. All in all this is the best unit we could even dream of having against Terran. It destroys mech and controls/damages unit clumps. So against this Thor/Hellion/Marine combo army you have forced the Terran player into, you can counter it before he even knows what's going on. You should produce a good amount of Roaches, Hydralisks, Speedlings, and enough infestors to outnumber his thors by a small amount. You're going to need some to fungal growth while the others mind control, if you don't you run the risk of the Terran player stimming up and focusing down your infestors. Loki21
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
Rushing Build Order: In a 1v1 match or a team match, it is important to start the match strong. Applying constant pressure is imperative to winning: Build Order: (1) Drone (1) Spawning Pool (2) Drones (1) Overlord (6) Zerglings (Totaling 12 Zerglings) (1) Queen The match should start by assigning your starting drones to a mineral. The first unit you should create is a drone. Once the drone is spawned you will have some time (about 20 seconds) before you can create a Spawning Pool. While you wait for the spawning pool to form you should hot-key your Hatchery and assign your future Zerglings to your opponents mineral line. After your Spawn Pool forms you should create two more drones. This ensures you will have enough minerals to feed your rush. As soon as you have enough minerals you should build an Overlord. This will also ensure you have the build room to create your Zergling army. If you have preformed the first couple of steps correctly by the time you have three left over larva on the ground, and your Overlord hatches you are ready to begin your egg state of your Zerglings. Once the first set of (3) Zerglings hatch (6 total) you should begin your assault on your opponents mineral line. If you wait to form to many your opponent will seal off their entrance and you will not be able to rush. As your first wave of Zerglings approach your enemies base you need to keep forming more. You will then send in three more waves of two Zerglings to play as support. If you do not take out your opponent with the first six waves you can still apply pressure in the same manner but make sure to create your Queen after the sixth wave as you should have just enough build room for her. With your next available larva create an Overlord if the match is going to continue on beyond this point. Should you have any questions or would like a replay of some of my rush's please contact me in game. I'm always happy to respond. and remember... GL & HF Mactitioner4
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
Zerg Balance? This more of a brainstorm than a fully created idea but it seems to me that the only real probelem most people have with Zerg is the ability to create units. We are limited to the amount of available larva when we wish to create units be they workers, supply or battle units. Unlike Toss and Terran we must choose what to build and if someone enters a zerg base all they need to do to shut down the army is kill the hatcheries, without a supply of larva zerg comes to a very abrupt halt on unit production while a Terran or Protoss player is able to create units until they run out of money or the actual production building is destroyed, killing a Nexus or Command Center does nothing but stop income for a short while. With the CC or Nex destroyed toss and terran are still able to field an army greater than three units. The idea is that instead of the maximum limit of 3 larva (without Spawn Larva) the hatchery would gain one extra larva for every building that allows a new unit to be produced. Larva would still spawn at the same rate. If you have a SP then your hatchery can support 4 larva, SP and Hydra Den - 5 larva, with a maximum of 6 or 8 to keep it from becoming ridiculous. This will allow Zerg to defend their base for a short while while being attacked and it makes zerg able to recover from a devestating economic drop with relative ease compared to chrono boosted probes and terran mules. This would also make forgetting to spawn larva during a very micro intensive battle a little more forgiving. Maybe even one extra larva per tier so that a hatchery has 3 lair has 4 and hive has 5. What do you think? Like I said the concept is just that, a concept, it definately would need tweaking to make sure it stays balanced. Zero0
Aug 28, 2010
I fixed Zerg with 4 changes I fixed Zerg with 4 changes I thought it through long and hard and I think I know how to fix Zerg. Some of these suggestions have already been stated, but here is goes: 1. Fix Baneling and Ultralisk pathing / collision areas. Terran bio + Thors + tanks work so well together because they hit so hard and they all share the same movement speed of 2.25. Terran bio has the ability to Stim and be healed from a not colliding air unit. With just a couple of Medivacs, there is little to no consequence for using the stim ability constantly. Very few unit compositions from either Protoss or Zerg can can beat them head on. The only early response Zerg has for the Terran bio ball is Banelings. I love the concept behind Baneling, But too often have my Banelings got caught up between Roaches, Hydras and Zerglings. None of the other two races suffer from this problem. Both Terran and Protoss' units have such good movement chemistry whereas the Zerg need extra micromanagement in order to be successful. I want to use Banelings successfully, but in the current state of the game, it requires perfect micro and clairvoyance. Also, Ultralisks suffer the same problem. I suggest that Banelings not collide with with other friendly units and same With Ultralisks. The Zerg relies so heavily on melee combat while the other two races benefit from faster, stronger ranged units. 2. Hydralisk +10 or 20 hp and a +6 or +8 damage to armor. Protoss Gateway units + Robo Fac work very well together. The mobile stalker / Sentry / Immortal / Colosi do substantial damage coupled with mobility and survivability that even rival the Terran bio + mech ball when handled correctly. The Zerg have very few options to deal with mass Stalker + robo support. The only way I've found to deal with mass Stalker is with a perfect Zergling surround with Roach / Hydra support. Currently Hydras are far too slow to be a “hit and run” type of unit. They should be able to take a couple of blow before they die. Up the Hit points on the Hydra by 10 or 20 on par with marauders, and give them some utility against armor. Zerg currently only have TWO units that can deal + damage against armored ground units: the Spine Crawler and the Ultralisk. Why is that? Stronger Hydras would help the Zerg deal with that mass Stalker army better by giving it more options. 3. Move Roach speed to Tier 1. This is to help ward off Reaper rushes + Hellion harass. To deal with this same problem, the Protoss have easy to obtain stalkers, and the Terrans have Maruders. The Zerg need help to deal with this kind of harass cause the queen / speedlings just can't handle it by themselves. Roach Tunneling Claws + Burrow can stay at tier 2. 4. Allow Infestors to use Neutral Parasite while burrowed and bring back Consume. The Zerg have a hard time against Thors, Colossi and Siege Tanks. Neutral Parasite is nigh impossible to use in the heat of battle due to the fact that Thor, Colossi, Siege Tanks all have such long range and the Neutral Parasite spell has a range of 7. Currently, the Infestor would have to literally be in the middle of a battle in order to reach them. Psionic Storm, EMP, and Fungral Regrowth don't suffer from this same problem because they are spells designed to be used on the bulk of an army and not specific power units, and they are not channeled. If you allow the Infestor to cast this spell while burrowed, they will surely be able to reach their destination unhindered (like a Phoenix currently functions) and will have sufficient pathing to reach their target. The visible Infestor “tendril” will still be present and the current spell range will stay the same. Both the Terran and Protoss have units that can attack and use spells while cloaked whereas the Zerg only have the Infested Terran. The Infested Terran ability needs to be removed from the game (it's basically a poor man's Build Auto-Turret Raven ability) and it needs to be replaced with the Starcraft 1 ability Consume. Here is how I justify Consume. Both Terran and Protoss' spell caster units are useful when they are out of mana. Ghost can still attack, Raven can detect. High Templar can form an Archon and the Sentry can also attack. Once an Infestor is out of mana it is useless. And since an Infestation Pit is unique as it is the Only spell caster building required in all the game for any race to advance in tech, You'd think that Infestors would be a bit more useful. These aren't game breaking changes as I think the Zerg only needs some subtle tweaks to make them more viable and more fun. Tell me what you think. magitek22
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
The only change i'd like to see in 1.1 Ok, i'm honestly fine with a lot of the changes. Zerg have such an enormous early game problem so this should help a little (mind you, i didn't say FIX it, but help it). The only additional change I want to see in there is SOMETHING with the roaches. I love the roaches, they are such an interesting unit with the potential to be so much fun to use... except for right now they are just glorified punching bags standing in front of hydras. So i would say to perhaps do one or two of the following (obviously not all because then they'd be ridiculously OP) -Make them 1.5 supply, spawn 2 per egg. I know this has been suggested but its an interesting idea -Give them a researchable underground attack. I don't care if it requires them to be underground and in melee range, just as long as they dont have to "unstealth" themselves to attack. If they do decide to do this though, i would say to roll speed and tunneling claws into the same upgrade (perhaps for 200/200), then make the attack a separate upgrade. (For balancing reasons) -Give them 2 armor -Give them an AA attack -Give them a bonus vs armored -Give them a blink-style underground movement button. So for example, you press this button, you tunnel deep underground for a range of 5 or something, then come back up to normal burrow height. You could make this cliff-jumpable or not, but it would be great for fast movement for them (like out of scan sweeps or away from detectors) or to bypass walls for stealth attacks. -Give zerglings and banelings the ability to jump off their back for a range of like, 5 or something, and land on the other side of enemies. This ability sounds kind of silly... but think about how more effective it would make zerglings in a choke fight where they can't get a surround easily. (it would also be HILARIOUS to see banelings doing suicide jumps.) -Give their attack a small splash radius or make an upgrade to give their attack a small splash radius. Nothing huge, just enough to make terran be a bit more afraid to do mmm balls. Zero3
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
My 6 bases barely beat protoss original base Here is a recent game I played. By the way is there a way to view the 'after match' charts using a replay? http://rapidshare.com/files/415191261/Protoss_str_vs_zerg_ground_control.SC2Replay.html Vital Statistics: Me [li]Bases: Six [li]Exhausted Mineral Lines: 2.5 [li]APM: 57 [li]Econ Spending: 14275 [li]Tech Spending: 8900 [li]Army Spending: 15050 [li]Units Lost: 263 [li]Resources lost: 18725 Him [li]Bases: One [li]Exhausted Mineral Lines: One [li]APM: 24 [li]Econ Spending: 3600 [li]Tech Spending: 3100 [li]Army Spending: 9850 [li]Units Lost: 98 [li]Resources lost: 14350 I literally fought tooth and nail to beat those mofo. He could easily have crushed me many times by pressing the attack, but chose not to. I kept throwing counters at him, but to no avail. He rolled through my spine crawlers, zerglings, and mutas, like they were a joke, with his stalkers and his (3) void rays. I had a team of infestors that attacked every one of his expansions with infested terrans and destroyed his attempts at expanding (total cost to him). I attacked his mineral lines constantly, doing damage to SCVs and stopping his mining. It is sad that I had to fight so damned hard to get my worthless zerg army to beat this guy. I literally controlled the whole map throughout the game, but he was able to summon massive, expensive, upgraded armies from his original mineral line. Time to reroll, I think. Watch the replay, let me know what things I did wrong (There were some mistakes, but not as many as he had). YourDogSucks30
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
Some Zerg micro aids: I'd like to suggest a few changes that may help with overloaded micro. Please consider them individually and ask how much they really change the game unit balances vs what good zerg players could do more of (like borrow traps and drops) with less overloaded micro. There will be a few unit balances suggested but mostly some stuff I haven't seen covered in these forums yet. 1. Add Larva queing: What this means that you will be able to que your larva to build *as they spawn* like you would que different units in a barracks. What this does it makes it so a Zerg player will only have to check out his bases to build things about as often as a terran player like me does. You can add all your hatcheries to the control group as well. 2. 3 Rally Points: 1 on each hatchery for drones, another for units, and another for overlords. If you have multiple hatcheries seleced, the right click ground by default will set unit rally points. This will make it so you don't have to continually move overlords out of the way when you want more units in the middle of a fight. Make the overlord rally a new hotkey. 3. Make queen spawn larva a channeling ability. All the queen does is channel the hatchery to increase larva spawn rate (say 4 or 5 in the time the hatch would do 3) instead of having to micro back every minute or so and see if you need to spawn more larva. Queen cannot attack while channeling and moving causes the channel to stop. Channel will have no energy cost (or a very small one to prevent energy regen). Only 1 queen can channel a hatchery at a time. And thats about it. Comments? FockeWulf5
Aug 28, 2010
yay i think i figured it out! z vs void spam! hey yall, i am a newb, played only about 40 games, but of those i lost a great amount (over 10) to people who played protoss, who just built the necessary building to get a star port( or its equivalent) and then just pumped out void rays. so just for the fellow people who are fresh like i am, in the lower leagues, after scouting the base, and making sure that they are indeed doing the void spam,((i have made this mistake of seeing he was protoss and following this, only to find he spammed the stalker >.<) i totally bypassed all ground units, and worked my way as fast as i could to get the corrupter, while in the process building a good 10 spore cannons, around my main base, and 5 around each expansion. i did not build a single ground unit(minus queen) once they attack you with all or most all of their attack force, defend the base that they attack, once the battle is over (in your favor) transform 3-5 of your corrupters into brood lords now go on the offencive if he has spammed cannons then use your brood lords to take them out from a safe distance, and also keep your corrupters nearby to protect them from any straggling void rays. all of this is my newbish experience , i have no ranking and only wish to share my experience with others who may be feeling the frustration of that tactic if any advanced players read this feel free to correct my on any and all points, as i have stated i am a newb i also am really bad at remembering what each unit is specifically called >.< but i think i conveyed it to the point that you all can understand what i mean Zemoregul23
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010
Finally a Fun ZvZ! And it was with a fellow Forum goer by the name of Zerah. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/66065-1v1-zerg-lost-temple Now, Zerah is only Platinum while I am Diamond, but he was holding up very well at the beginning, this is one of my favorite ZvZ games played. Now to go into detail on the replay though for you that wonder what the hell I was doing through the game. Strategy: I was focused on Roaches after seeing the Baneling nest, and I didn't want him in my base with Speedlings either so I stuck them in the choke. I then used my queen to take out his overlord (A full extra Roach + time for me!) and then expand soon after. After scouting with a quick Ling, I found he also had an Expo up, and not much of an army to defend it. So I hit quick after getting the speed upgrade for the roaches, and ended up takeing out his Expo which was a quick 5 Roaches and any minerals he could of gained from it. I noticed his Infestors so I got some Vision over my choke just to be safe, while getting some more drones for income... Sadly he decided to attack as soon as I use my Larva and am forced to defend. And while you yell at me for Burrowing my Roaches when he had an overseer, I did it to get some extra health before the battle began. Since I had the economy advantage, after that battle, I hit his expo again for another 5 roaches my way. But my minerals were starting to go way up (3k!) But I needed to make use of this, as well as my building Gas. So I built a Spire for some Muta's, and was going to get some Speedlings and another Expo. After I got my Muta's and massed Ling/Roach, I went for the Flank on his base, hopeing to hit his front and drag all of his units down there while the muta's tore his main up. Lucky for me he went for the Rich Minerals, and my Xel'Naga told me this... I instantly went for the kill, and came out victorious. Best, ZvZ, ever. :) Xero16
Aug 28, 2010 Aug 28, 2010