General Discussion

Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Order of Upgrades Idea - Protoss Hey guys, Given how shields are now significantly cheaper, and do effect buildings (and archons very well, which I use in all three matchups), I had an idea for a new "order" of choosing your upgrades, specifically if you double forge. If you get 1/1 everytime, like most do, you'll be stuck with shields at the end and you waste your dual forges for 2 or 3 full sets of upgrades. Also, +2 and +3 begin to get expensive so starting with +1 shields isn't the worst idea as you move to the mid/late game where extra shields for buildings, stargate, and archons isn't the worst idea. We all know how important damage reductino is for zealots to get in and do their damage too, so couplin shields with armor can be beneficial. The MAIN reasonf or doing this, however, is so you can continue to double upgrade towards the end and not get stuck researching shield over and over with one forge idle. As of now, a PvT ugprade order with 1 initial forge followed by a forge + twilight council is generally +1 armor followed by +1/+1 to the end, then +1 shields 3X. Instead, how about this? 0/1/0 1/2/0 2/2/1 (Weapons here if using collosi, otherwise consider armor instead) 2/3/2 3/3/3 Reasoning: Initial armor is most important for PvT, so with ur first forge upgrade get that. Get your 2nd forge halfway through the upgrade + twilight counsil, so get your +1 and add another to armor which will substantially reduce damage taken. For #3, your armor should be helping a lot already and you need to bump up weapons to help with things like collosi on board. You need to start researching shields so you can continue upgrading 2 upgrades at a time from here on out. This is a good time, because it's very possible you will have archons around this time and possibly stargate. Also, shields are cost effective since +3 armor is expensive now. This build focuses on getting the early upgrades of armor/weapon/shield and not paying for the more expensive +2 or +3 until you run out of options, while priortizing what is best for the matchup. Also, reducing damage so zealots can get in is very imporant PvT so having shields AND armor could be a great investment, and will reduce damage far more than we are used to by doing the old 1/1 to 2/2 upgrades that are customary, while ignoring shields. For PvZ, I'd say it's best to arrange an order that is more "Weapon Centric" earlier, but getting shields and armoy will certainly be helpful (great against Mtuas bounce attack, including strengthening the photon cannon and phoenixes if you go that route.) +1 Weapons +2 Weapons, + 1 Armor +2 Armor + 1 Shields +3 Weapons + 2 Shields + 3 Armor + 3 Shields +2 armor and +1 Shields land in time to greatly reduce the bouncing attack effect of Muts, in combo with guardian shield. Early + 2 Weapons to help blink stalkers with Mut Harass, zealots with ling smackin', and help stalkers kill banelings/lings quickly while forcefielded. rawler5
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Tempest - Perfect Deathball Unit It seems that the very design of the Tempest makes it an ideal Deathball unit. It's relatively slow, does large anti-air AoE(great in large battles), and is a decent enough ground hitter. If that doesn't scream a deathball unit I don't know what does. Normally, I wouldn't mind this but it seems Blizzard is strongly against anything that would add to the typical Protoss deathball so I suggest a change to the unit as shown in Blizzcon. Make the Tempest into a reverse Void Ray. Rather than start weak and get stronger as the battle continues it would become weaker. The idea is the following: While the Tempest doesn't fire the large electricity ball that powers it's attack grows and grows(graphically). The larger it gets the more powerful the Tempest's next attack does. Obviously, the Tempest would have to be a little weaker in attack or health in exchange for this kind of feature. The concept could even be simple such as: If the Tempest does not fire for 5-10 seconds it's next attack is "overcharged" and deals large bonus damage. What this would do is make the Tempest into a unit that is less effective in a protracted "death ball" battle scenario and better at hit and runs and dealing with them. Naturally, the Tempest would have to be a little quicker(maybe 2.5-2.75 movement speed) to be able to function in such a manner. Numerically I'm thinking of something like the following. Tempest: Hitpoints reduced to 250/150 from 300/150. Movement speed increased to 2.75. New Ability: Overcharge: If the Tempest does not fire at a target for 20 seconds it deals triple damage on it's next attack. New Upgrade: Available at Fleet Beacon. Improved Overcharge: 150/150, 90 seconds. The Tempest requires only 10 seconds instead of 20 to Overcharge it's attack. Obviously, there are various ways to incorporate this concept such as various charge levels (like the Void Ray used to have) that decrease as the tempest fires but increase when it doesn't. I only suggested a single "Overcharge" to simplify the concept but whatever works best is fine with me. It would also make the Tempest have a relatively simple yet very unique concept. So what do you guys think? MisterMan14
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Archon toilet "fixed" Creating a thread is something like having a daughter. At first you feel happy and proud to watch it grow and change. Through good times and bad you are there to support it and help it find it's way. Later on it has begun to mature and though it has the same problems constantly you do your best to set it right in the way you see best. No matter what you tell it, it seems to attract more than it's fair share of morons but you still do your best to give it everything it needs. Eventually it's gone away, there is some relief in the fact that you have less to feel responsible for but at the same time you miss the simpler days when it was just you and your thread... but to my point I've been noticing lately that a surprising number of PvZ replays I watch end with the Archon toilet. I thought Blizzard fixed this but it has become quite apparent that is not the case. Archon splash still hits every air unit and one psi storm kills everything else. In the spirit of having a game that is fair, strategic and entertaining (both to play and watch) it is pretty apparent that this needs to be actually fixed. Edit: Given the mass amount of apparent geniuses this thread has attracted it seems appropriate to add a general conclusion (not that you'll actually read it). Casting vortex and moving archons into it takes no micro at all, yet it is a method that will instantly kill a significant number of broodlords. Proposal: Force broodlords to spread more quickly when exiting a vortex so that they wont ALL take damage from every archon hit. Wouldn't affect chaining with psi storms as much. Protoss does deserve a way to win late game against zerg, but accepting the archon toilet as that answer does not support the idea of SC2 being a game with as high of a skill cap as it does. This in turn makes the idea of SC2 being a respectable E-sport laughable. P.S. Before you post something irrelevant, stupid or already mentioned take the time to read the whole thread because I won't repeat myself (the first 4-5 pages and post #161 contain most of the relevant discussion and just because you have something witty to say does not mean anyone cares). Thanks Bone238
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Suggestions for Hydralisk I know in HoTS their giving hydralisk a movement speed upgrade, but I think this suggestion could be implemented as well without being game breaking to make the hydra far more useful against other ground units. So Blizzard made hydras a more powerful unit in SC2, increasing cost/stats and putting them at tier 2, but what about increasing the unit size/radius more to suit its high cost? Yea true its extremely beneficial to be able to pack a lot of dps into a small space, and that's why I think they should also increase the base range of hydras by 0.5 to compensate, so they could still group together and attack about as efficiently. Increasing the size would obviously make hydras have drastically more survivability when dealing with AoE which they are sorely in need of to be more viable units. Once the Colossus get out on the field, or Siege Tanks, or Banelings, they just incinerate hydras in seconds, making them near useless when up against these units, except maybe vs Protoss, obviously because of how efficient they are at killing gateway units, so it makes sense for the Colossus to be able to counter hydras pretty hard, and I'm not suggesting to get rid of their light armor type or increase their health/armor, so AoE attacks would still be able to counter them, but just wouldn't be as ridiculously good at it. I wouldn't even mind if hydras became less efficient at killing Stalkers/Zealots if their range/size was increased some. It's not that bad for a terran to lose a cluster of marines to AoE since their only 50 minerals each and can be mass produced with reactors, but hydras? They cost roughly 4 times as much resources but still seem to die almost as fast as marines to anything AoE...Yea different units are different but that's still pretty absurd imo. Their just too damn fragile for their cost. Deometris21
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Snipe is OP TL;DR Version 64 sec after making a Ghost, (the t2 unit costing 200m/100g 2 supply) It has the energy to spam snipe 5xs and kill a BroodLord (the T3.5 unit costing 300m/250g and 4 supply). Terran can Gain this time with drop harassment Terran uses snipe to deal with tech switches, but it is a unit to counter the all when it comes to zerg T3. a Ultralisk hit by 4 tank shots, it takes 4 snipes to kill the ultrlisk before the ultralisk can do any damage. Burst damage is a bad design for any unit. IMBA and OP Snipe 25 energy 45 damage Ignores armor Range 10 Ghost cost 200m/100g and 2 supply T2 BLs cost 300m/250g and 4 supply T3.5 One ghost with 125 energy can take out a BL. One with 155 energy can Cloak and take out a BL with out the risk of losing the unit. With the Moebius Reactor it takes 1 minute and 21 sec before one ghost can solo a BL. With out it takes 2 minutes and 12 sec. That is IN GAME TIME not the true time. Game time is 20% faster than real time In Real Time it is 64 sec to one shot a BL with a ghost. Terran can drop a few time in the 1 minute it takes to gain energy to one shot a BL. This pins zerg back defending. Ultralisk cost 300m/200g and 6 supply Ultralisk die in 8 snipes + one normal attack. Which is 200 energy from a ghost. If the Ultralisk is charging in and gets hit by 4 tank shots, it takes 4 snipes to kill the ultrlisk before the Ultralisk can do any damage. Now Sure Terrans use snipe to counter zergs late tame tech, but with the way it is now Terran has one unit to counter them all, and the counter is far to harsh. BLs and ultras die before dealing any damage. Terrans need a way to be on even footing with zerg T3 with out such a harsh counter. ... When a Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings to counter right? And when he tech switches and makes HT/immortal your vikings are useless. This is a part of the game called forcing, If you over made vikings you should be punished. Why should zerg not be allowed to use forcing in the same why as the other races? Suggestion: For WOL, it is too late to give Terran a different spell, snipe must stay, as so snipe should have its casting cost increased to 75. The 2nd way to nerf the spell would to be reduce the range to 7 and reduce its damage vs massive form 45 to 30. I think this would be the way to go. For HOTS, There is time to give Terran a way to be on even footing with zerg T3. The new units could offer this. And a new spell could be introduced. I would like to see lock down back my self. Burst damage is a bad design for any unit. Death353
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011 Nov 8, 2011
What protoss needs Short OP about things that could be viable to fix protoss's early game. Things to think about: 1-1-1/FE builds are safe because of weak protoss early game + no detection regardless of tech path Mass droning is safe because of weak protoss early game Protoss is the most easily cheesed race because of no static D in the tech path These are the biggest issues with protoss, and these are the issues blizzard either doesn't know about, doesn't care about, or doesn't know how to fix. Let's post ideas on how to fix them so we can get the ball rolling on discussion. This doesn't have to be a thread totally about fantasy changes either, you can post your ideas on how you deal with these things as toss in the current version of sc2. My thoughts: Option A: Move the immortal to the warpgate, and give protoss static D in the main tech path. Trash the sentry and trash the arc cannon thing, keep the replicator if you like. Swap colossus for reaver, remove nexus recall, trash the oracle, trash the tempest. Drop 15-20 from the carrier's build time, make mommaship 6 supply, and increase it's autoattack damage. Move the DT to the templar archives. Option B: Move warpgate research to twilight council. Buff zealots and stalkers accordingly, make observers available at TC and Stargate. Keep nexus recall, keep arc cannon thing. Trash oracle, bring in reaper in protoss form from the cycore. Keep tempest, keep replicator, remove research for storm or bring back KA. Thoughts? LiaSiri34
Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011 Nov 8, 2011