General Discussion

Nov 9, 2011
Stat Inflation SC1 Zealot----------------------------------SC2 Zealot HP: 100------------------------------------- HP:100 Shields: 60----------------------------------Shields: 50 (-6.25% Total HP) Armor: 1--------------------------------------Armor: 1 Supply: 2------------------------------------ Supply: 2 Damage: (8X2)-----------------------------Damage: (8X2) < This is worse than 16 Range: Melee--------------------------------Range: Melee Cost: 100 minerals--------------------------Cost: 100 minerals SC1 Dragoon ----------------------------------SC2 Stalker HP: 100--------------------------------------HP:80 Shields: 80----------------------------------Shields: 80 (-11.1% Total HP) Armor: 1---------------------------------- --Armor: 1 Supply: 2 ----------------------------------Supply: 2 Damage: 20 (10 to small)------------- Damage: 10+4 armored (-30% Damage) Upgrade Damage: +2------------------- Upgrade Damage: +1 (-1 Damage Per Upgrade) Range: 4 (6 with upgrade)------------Range: 6 Cost: 125/50--------------------------------Cost: 125/50 SC1 Marine----------------------------------SC2 Marine HP: 40-------------------------------------- HP: 45 (55 with shields) +12.5% HP (+37.5%) Armor: 0----------------------------------- Armor: 0 Supply: 1----------------------------------Supply: 1 Range: 4 (5 with upgrade)-----------Range: 5 Damage: 6----------------------------------Damage: 6 Cost: 50 minerals-------------------------Cost: 50 minerals SC1 Firebat---------------------------------- SC2 Marauder HP: 50---------------------------------- HP: 125 (+250% HP) Armor: 1---------------------------------- Armor: 1 Supply: 1----------------------------------Supply: 2 Dmg: 8X2 (4X2 to Large)Splash-----Dmg:10+10 armored (+25% increase)Concussive Upgrade Damage: +2------------------ Upgrade Damage: +1 (+2 armored) Range: 2------------------------------------ Range: 6 (+300% increase) Cost: 50/25---------------------------------Cost: 100/25 SC1 Hydra----------------------------------SC2 Roach HP: 80------------------------------------ HP: 145 (+81.25% HP increase) Armor: 0--------------------------------------Armor: 1 (+1 armor increase) Supply: 1------------------------------------- Supply: 2 Range: 4 (5 with upgrade)------------ Range: 4 (Ground only) Damage: 10--------------------------------- Damage: 16 (+60% Damage increase) Upgrade damage: +1---------------------Upgrade Damage: +2 (+1 Per Upgrade) Cost: 75/25----------------------------------Cost: 75/25 Some Analysis: The most bizarre change is probably a melee unit (firebat) becoming ranged yet gaining HP and damage. Typically a melee unit should have higher dps/hp than a ranged one. Overall zerg and terran both received buffs to their base units while protoss received exclusively nerfs. Protoss were given an expensive forcefield caster with virtually no damage dealing ability while zerg and terran were granted queens, banelings and reapers. Conclusion: Assuming SC1 was "perfectly balanced," and it was pretty darn close, I would conclude that protoss should be completely unable to compete in a T1 setting in SC2. This is why protoss relies on either holding a defensive position or static defense in the early game until more capable units can hit the field. The inability to escape concussive shells or the speed of zerglings is particularly harsh to toss in the early game. Upgrades such as stim/blink etc are not included here because I am focused on the early game here where my race feels weakest. David Kim did note that toss is unable to be aggressive and they are adding a "recall mechanic" to the nexus to remedy this particular aspect. However, I do not feel this goes nearly far enough as the units themselves will not perform better vs terran or zerg units and microing against marauders will still be nearly useless thanks to concussive shells. I believe significant buffs to tosses early units will be necessary and/or some redesigning of T1 units as a whole will be necessary (In this case I think removal of force fields is an essential step to balancing the game). For fun: Stalker with Equivalent Firebat to Marauder buffs HP: 250 Shields: 200 Armor: 1 Supply: 3 Damage: 50 (13 to small) Concussive Shells Upgrade Damage: +2( +2 vs armored) Range: 12 (18 with upgrade) Cost: 250/50 dGSckarr74
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My thoughts on balance issues I know everyone has been complaining about balance since the beginning of time but i have not had that many problems. Yea i get into ruts just like everyone else. I just work and try to finds ways out of them. Of course for those that i just cant seem to beat i come here to the forums. When im here i look for how others have dealt with an issue. If i cant find a resolution to my issue ill make a post asking how i beat X + Y at Z time. Normally i get a good response and some undesirable ones ( have you ever heard of muta's LOL). Overall i feel that players at my level DO abuse certain properties of game in order to win. I do in some way resent these but feel that these are all part of the game. With this there is a weakness to each race. That again is part of the game. With this in mind i dont feel as if any race is unbeatable at my level and can be conquered with a more skill. So i ask all of you that read this and regularly browse the forums to please worry about your skill more then which race is "OP". Because the truth is that each race is OP in some way, but people that are in my league and below are not capable of fully utilizing that. Yes i have found that there are aspects of certain races that i hate such as tarrens ability to make marines faster then i can make zerglings late game or Protosses ability to have a "hard counter me or your !@#$ed" unit. But once again you can easily play into the races weakness and make sure that this doesnt happen. I guess what i am trying to say is that this is a strategy game where you make choices that decides how much we enjoy the gmae. I chose to make myself better and use these forums to better my knowledge and skill. I do not choose to use these forums as a way to "fix" the game or speak logic to the creators of them game in order to have them understand that what they are doing is a mistake. I don't always agree with their decisions ( new fast upgrades for toss are going to make me cry in a corner) So i ask all of you wonderful people, stop the qq and get on with the PEW PEW. Then we can all have more fun with it and leave the creators of the game to fix it. gg all Ace0
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less people playing terran Their is a lot of threads about less people playing terran more people playing zerg. So I went to sc2 ranks and found this is not true at all. The stats clearly show zerg is used to least and terran is used to most. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/grandmaster/1/all http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/master/1/all http://sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all League distribution Region Grandmaster Master Diamond Platinum Gold Silver Bronze Global 0.2% (1,000) 4.4% (21,997) 9.0% (44,710) 15.2% (75,790) 18.7% (93,090) 23.3% (116,084) 29.2% (145,275) China 0.6% (200) 6.3% (2,030) 9.3% (3,011) 12.6% (4,075) 14.8% (4,783) 21.5% (6,973) 35.0% (11,327) Korea / Taiwan 0.2% (200) 3.1% (2,480) 6.8% (5,440) 13.1% (10,473) 19.8% (15,857) 30.0% (24,072) 27.0% (21,659) Europe 0.1% (200) 4.0% (7,279) 8.1% (14,685) 14.2% (25,890) 18.2% (33,137) 22.5% (41,041) 33.0% (60,150) Southeast Asia 1.1% (200) 4.4% (813) 9.5% (1,768) 13.3% (2,467) 16.1% (2,994) 21.3% (3,946) 34.3% (6,355) Americas 0.1% (200) 5.1% (9,395) 10.7% (19,806) 17.8% (32,885) 19.7% (36,319) 21.7% (40,052) 24.8% (45,784) Grandmaster (1,000 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 1.2% (12) 36.9% (369) 29.7% (297) 32.2% (322) Average wins 53.6% (892) 58.6% (35,914) 60.5% (23,554) 59.4% (30,725) Average points 295 303 301 321 Master (21,997 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 4.3% (946) 32.9% (7,227) 29.4% (6,469) 33.4% (7,355) Average wins 49.4% (39,117) 51.0% (413,704) 50.9% (301,876) 51.2% (408,892) Average points 143 236 217 236 Diamond (44,710 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 7.0% (3,133) 31.6% (14,121) 26.0% (11,620) 35.4% (15,836) Total wins 54,194 270,216 195,023 306,619 Average points 101 124 116 128 Platinum (75,790 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 9.1% (6,901) 31.5% (23,895) 25.9% (19,612) 33.5% (25,382) Total wins 86,380 328,725 242,130 355,324 Average points 82 103 96 108 Gold (93,090 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 10.2% (9,536) 32.1% (29,848) 27.7% (25,782) 30.0% (27,924) Total wins 101,538 329,630 264,801 334,635 Average points 79 93 86 101 Silver (116,084 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 10.4% (12,116) 31.7% (36,743) 32.2% (37,428) 25.7% (29,797) Total wins 141,837 375,493 366,085 325,006 Average points 85 93 88 101 Bronze (145,275 players) Type Random Protoss Terran Zerg Distribution 8.8% (12,853) 32.3% (46,884) 38.1% (55,345) 20.8% (30,193) Total wins 674,117 548,069 605,251 365,774 Average points 109 107 100 111 HCl5
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Order of Upgrades Idea - Protoss Hey guys, Given how shields are now significantly cheaper, and do effect buildings (and archons very well, which I use in all three matchups), I had an idea for a new "order" of choosing your upgrades, specifically if you double forge. If you get 1/1 everytime, like most do, you'll be stuck with shields at the end and you waste your dual forges for 2 or 3 full sets of upgrades. Also, +2 and +3 begin to get expensive so starting with +1 shields isn't the worst idea as you move to the mid/late game where extra shields for buildings, stargate, and archons isn't the worst idea. We all know how important damage reductino is for zealots to get in and do their damage too, so couplin shields with armor can be beneficial. The MAIN reasonf or doing this, however, is so you can continue to double upgrade towards the end and not get stuck researching shield over and over with one forge idle. As of now, a PvT ugprade order with 1 initial forge followed by a forge + twilight council is generally +1 armor followed by +1/+1 to the end, then +1 shields 3X. Instead, how about this? 0/1/0 1/2/0 2/2/1 (Weapons here if using collosi, otherwise consider armor instead) 2/3/2 3/3/3 Reasoning: Initial armor is most important for PvT, so with ur first forge upgrade get that. Get your 2nd forge halfway through the upgrade + twilight counsil, so get your +1 and add another to armor which will substantially reduce damage taken. For #3, your armor should be helping a lot already and you need to bump up weapons to help with things like collosi on board. You need to start researching shields so you can continue upgrading 2 upgrades at a time from here on out. This is a good time, because it's very possible you will have archons around this time and possibly stargate. Also, shields are cost effective since +3 armor is expensive now. This build focuses on getting the early upgrades of armor/weapon/shield and not paying for the more expensive +2 or +3 until you run out of options, while priortizing what is best for the matchup. Also, reducing damage so zealots can get in is very imporant PvT so having shields AND armor could be a great investment, and will reduce damage far more than we are used to by doing the old 1/1 to 2/2 upgrades that are customary, while ignoring shields. For PvZ, I'd say it's best to arrange an order that is more "Weapon Centric" earlier, but getting shields and armoy will certainly be helpful (great against Mtuas bounce attack, including strengthening the photon cannon and phoenixes if you go that route.) +1 Weapons +2 Weapons, + 1 Armor +2 Armor + 1 Shields +3 Weapons + 2 Shields + 3 Armor + 3 Shields +2 armor and +1 Shields land in time to greatly reduce the bouncing attack effect of Muts, in combo with guardian shield. Early + 2 Weapons to help blink stalkers with Mut Harass, zealots with ling smackin', and help stalkers kill banelings/lings quickly while forcefielded. rawler5
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Tempest - Perfect Deathball Unit It seems that the very design of the Tempest makes it an ideal Deathball unit. It's relatively slow, does large anti-air AoE(great in large battles), and is a decent enough ground hitter. If that doesn't scream a deathball unit I don't know what does. Normally, I wouldn't mind this but it seems Blizzard is strongly against anything that would add to the typical Protoss deathball so I suggest a change to the unit as shown in Blizzcon. Make the Tempest into a reverse Void Ray. Rather than start weak and get stronger as the battle continues it would become weaker. The idea is the following: While the Tempest doesn't fire the large electricity ball that powers it's attack grows and grows(graphically). The larger it gets the more powerful the Tempest's next attack does. Obviously, the Tempest would have to be a little weaker in attack or health in exchange for this kind of feature. The concept could even be simple such as: If the Tempest does not fire for 5-10 seconds it's next attack is "overcharged" and deals large bonus damage. What this would do is make the Tempest into a unit that is less effective in a protracted "death ball" battle scenario and better at hit and runs and dealing with them. Naturally, the Tempest would have to be a little quicker(maybe 2.5-2.75 movement speed) to be able to function in such a manner. Numerically I'm thinking of something like the following. Tempest: Hitpoints reduced to 250/150 from 300/150. Movement speed increased to 2.75. New Ability: Overcharge: If the Tempest does not fire at a target for 20 seconds it deals triple damage on it's next attack. New Upgrade: Available at Fleet Beacon. Improved Overcharge: 150/150, 90 seconds. The Tempest requires only 10 seconds instead of 20 to Overcharge it's attack. Obviously, there are various ways to incorporate this concept such as various charge levels (like the Void Ray used to have) that decrease as the tempest fires but increase when it doesn't. I only suggested a single "Overcharge" to simplify the concept but whatever works best is fine with me. It would also make the Tempest have a relatively simple yet very unique concept. So what do you guys think? MisterMan14
Nov 9, 2011 Nov 9, 2011
Archon toilet "fixed" Creating a thread is something like having a daughter. At first you feel happy and proud to watch it grow and change. Through good times and bad you are there to support it and help it find it's way. Later on it has begun to mature and though it has the same problems constantly you do your best to set it right in the way you see best. No matter what you tell it, it seems to attract more than it's fair share of morons but you still do your best to give it everything it needs. Eventually it's gone away, there is some relief in the fact that you have less to feel responsible for but at the same time you miss the simpler days when it was just you and your thread... but to my point I've been noticing lately that a surprising number of PvZ replays I watch end with the Archon toilet. I thought Blizzard fixed this but it has become quite apparent that is not the case. Archon splash still hits every air unit and one psi storm kills everything else. In the spirit of having a game that is fair, strategic and entertaining (both to play and watch) it is pretty apparent that this needs to be actually fixed. Edit: Given the mass amount of apparent geniuses this thread has attracted it seems appropriate to add a general conclusion (not that you'll actually read it). Casting vortex and moving archons into it takes no micro at all, yet it is a method that will instantly kill a significant number of broodlords. Proposal: Force broodlords to spread more quickly when exiting a vortex so that they wont ALL take damage from every archon hit. Wouldn't affect chaining with psi storms as much. Protoss does deserve a way to win late game against zerg, but accepting the archon toilet as that answer does not support the idea of SC2 being a game with as high of a skill cap as it does. This in turn makes the idea of SC2 being a respectable E-sport laughable. P.S. Before you post something irrelevant, stupid or already mentioned take the time to read the whole thread because I won't repeat myself (the first 4-5 pages and post #161 contain most of the relevant discussion and just because you have something witty to say does not mean anyone cares). Thanks Bone238
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